return or deadhead
#3121868
02/15/23 09:09 PM
02/15/23 09:09 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,390 CA.
RAY1969CARS
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hi guys, carburetor guys carburetor guys let’s talk fuel systems. What are most of you guys running return system or are you dead heading please share car and ETs. Motor etc.
Last edited by RAY1969CARS; 02/15/23 09:13 PM.
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: CMcAllister]
#3121873
02/15/23 09:35 PM
02/15/23 09:35 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,991 new jersey usa
11secdart
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master
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new jersey usa
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68 Dart .. 527 hp small block runs 10.90s - Product Engineering pump and filter combo ....return is on the pump returns thru -8 hose back to the cell ..-10 line from pump to regulator in front of car .. have been as fast as 10.40 with this pump set up but with a different motor
Last edited by 11secdart; 02/15/23 09:43 PM.
68 Dart 410 / 904 92 D150 original owner 21 Ram 1500 Quad Cab, Big Horn , Hemi ,4x4 23 Audi Q5 16 Honda HRV
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: rebel]
#3121910
02/15/23 11:20 PM
02/15/23 11:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,587 Motor City
6PKRTSE
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Single 4bbl on a deadhead. Using a Magnafuel pump with a bypass at the pump. Running 8.9s on pumpgas. Similar, but with dual 4 bbl and mine is an Aeromotive 3000 pump with the bypass and filter at the pump. Also street car on pump gas.
1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute 1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack 1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi 1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL 1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383 1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440 1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4 2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4 2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: DusterKid]
#3121956
02/16/23 09:23 AM
02/16/23 09:23 AM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
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Washington
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Return. I can’t think of a reason to not use a return line, but Shilo says his is a dead head system and his stuff runs…well…FREAKING HARD.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: madscientist]
#3121964
02/16/23 09:59 AM
02/16/23 09:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,937 A shed in England
Tig
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A shed in England
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MagnaFuel 500 2 x -10 pick up with -8 return at the pump. -12 to the reg (Aeromotive) and -8 to the 2 x 4 Dominators. Overkill for the fuel system but I was chasing a fueling issue (top end lean out) at the time and upsized all the fuel lines. The fueling system turned out not to be the issue but according to the data it helped
'74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials. 9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge. RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: RAY1969CARS]
#3121965
02/16/23 10:02 AM
02/16/23 10:02 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,408 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
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For several years I ran a simple deadhead system on my cuda using the little Aeromotive street rod 11203 pump and a -8 feed line. Ran 9.50s at 140+ mph at 3800 lbs. pump gas and all motor. I upgraded to the Aeromotive A1000 pump using a -10 feed and -8 return. It ran no faster, but I didn't expect it to. I went w/ the return system to help vapor lock issues on the street...and it helped greatly. Still using the same system feeding both the motor and the nitrous system well into the 8 sec range. Using a stock tank w/ a welded on sump. Two -10 feed lines Y'd at the pre-pump filter inlet. The return is plumbed into the stock pickup tube.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#3121975
02/16/23 11:11 AM
02/16/23 11:11 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,390 CA.
RAY1969CARS
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For several years I ran a simple deadhead system on my cuda using the little Aeromotive street rod 11203 pump and a -8 feed line. Ran 9.50s at 140+ mph at 3800 lbs. pump gas and all motor. I upgraded to the Aeromotive A1000 pump using a -10 feed and -8 return. It ran no faster, but I didn't expect it to. I went w/ the return system to help vapor lock issues on the street...and it helped greatly. Still using the same system feeding both the motor and the nitrous system well into the 8 sec range. Using a stock tank w/ a welded on sump. Two -10 feed lines Y'd at the pre-pump filter inlet. The return is plumbed into the stock pickup tube. how long would it take for it to vapor lock?
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: RAY1969CARS]
#3121982
02/16/23 11:30 AM
02/16/23 11:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,408 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
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I Live Here
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For several years I ran a simple deadhead system on my cuda using the little Aeromotive street rod 11203 pump and a -8 feed line. Ran 9.50s at 140+ mph at 3800 lbs. pump gas and all motor. I upgraded to the Aeromotive A1000 pump using a -10 feed and -8 return. It ran no faster, but I didn't expect it to. I went w/ the return system to help vapor lock issues on the street...and it helped greatly. Still using the same system feeding both the motor and the nitrous system well into the 8 sec range. Using a stock tank w/ a welded on sump. Two -10 feed lines Y'd at the pre-pump filter inlet. The return is plumbed into the stock pickup tube. how long would it take for it to vapor lock? When you shut the car off after it was hot and then try to restart it. If I got caught in stop and go traffic during the hot summer months it would start doing it also.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#3122002
02/16/23 12:15 PM
02/16/23 12:15 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,550 On the run…
BloFish
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Aeromotive pump, with two Aeromotive filters and Aeromotive regulator that is deadheaded. I have a separate Aeromotive regulator designed for a return, but just haven’t felt the need to change it as of yet. 500 stroker with a single carburetor puts out 615hp on the dyno.
It really doesn't matter whether you win or lose… as long as you look good doing it!
‘65 A100 ‘69 ‘Cuda ‘73 Vega GT ‘06 Mega Cab ‘14 Mercedes SLK
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: BloFish]
#3122004
02/16/23 12:25 PM
02/16/23 12:25 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,390 CA.
RAY1969CARS
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I have a 69 dart with a stock fuel tank, a blue pump, going to a regulator, and I noticed a hammering type sound at the regulator and my AFR gauge would go lean
to give you a more complete picture of the fuel system, which is being switched out today however, I just don’t want to do all this at the same thing occur
It’s a 3/8 sending unit going into the pump, going into a half inch aluminum line that goes to my regulator
The new system I’m putting in is a fuel cell with a -8 line going to the pump going to the 1/2 line. plastic tank
and of course, I’m trying to rethink it and thinking about a return line
however, I know I deadhead system as work for years for most people
Last edited by RAY1969CARS; 02/16/23 12:38 PM.
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: RAY1969CARS]
#3122028
02/16/23 01:28 PM
02/16/23 01:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,391 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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Dead head stuff here on all of the cars. Weldon pumps with bypass to cell from pump set between 27-32 depending on car. All regulated down to 4.8-5lbs at carb. All 4 port Weldon regulators for single carbs. No issues ever with this setup. Been .99x-1.0 60's with this set up. Same stuff we run in the Vette. If its good enough for aerospace industry and Nasa it is good enough for a racecar.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: RAY1969CARS]
#3122029
02/16/23 01:28 PM
02/16/23 01:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,391 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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I guess right now I’m not 100% sure if it’s vapor lock or cavitation
Sidenote, this happens when my fuel tank is full How big is your vent?
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3122047
02/16/23 02:02 PM
02/16/23 02:02 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
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RAY1969CARS
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Stock vent on the tank it is small the size of a vacuum hose
Great point though I’m a pipefitter so you think I would probably think about that I know how important venr line is
Last edited by RAY1969CARS; 02/16/23 02:10 PM.
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3122065
02/16/23 02:19 PM
02/16/23 02:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,760 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
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Fulton County, PA
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Passing along info I have learned - The return line must be at least as big as the supply line, minimum. Otherwise the return hose becomes the restriction. And if you are using a high GPH for application pump, it should be one size larger. Tank to pump, one size larger minimum than supply line. Tank vent minimum -8. Much easier on the pump to maintain volume at <10psi than at >25psi. We build a system to that spec, works perfectly. Fuel pressure rock steady on the Racepak. Fuel doesn't heat soak in the line. Put a diptube on the return in the tank, get a solid fuel flow with no aeration. On a dead head system, fuel in the supply line just sitting there, for the most part, until the hit. What's that fuel weigh? It has to be accelerated in the line to meet the demands of the engine. Plus it has to be accelerated against the G forces of the car accelerating. With a return system, it's already moving. I ran deadhead systems forever. They work. Won't anymore unless the guy insists. Heck, I have guys running low 9s at 3600# with Holley Blue pumps. Tank in the front of the car makes things much easier.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: CMcAllister]
#3122075
02/16/23 02:27 PM
02/16/23 02:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,408 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
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I Live Here
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The return line must be at least as big as the supply line, minimum. Otherwise the return hose becomes the restriction. And if you are using a high GPH for application pump, it should be one size larger.
I've heard this before, but many don't agree w/ this. One of the engineers at Aeromotive recommended the -10 feed and -8 return on my car and it works flawlessly. Many factory EFI applications use a smaller return than feed also.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#3122098
02/16/23 03:52 PM
02/16/23 03:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,760 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
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The return line must be at least as big as the supply line, minimum. Otherwise the return hose becomes the restriction. And if you are using a high GPH for application pump, it should be one size larger.
I've heard this before, but many don't agree w/ this. One of the engineers at Aeromotive recommended the -10 feed and -8 return on my car and it works flawlessly. Many factory EFI applications use a smaller return than feed also. I don't disagree that someone would tell you that. The tech guy I talked to at a company that builds high end carb fuel systems we've used told me same or larger. Along with the rest of it. You'll get different stories from different places, even though they are the ones who design, test and make the stuff. My thoughts were, if you run it up through 16' of -10 and return it through 16' of -8, how can the smaller line not be a restriction, to some degree, with a big pump? I want to control fuel pressure at the carb with the regulator, I want it to be consistent regardless fuel demand of the engine and we aren't running a lot of fuel pressure to the carb. Not all return regulators and systems are designed the same way. Different parts and pieces from different manufactures will function differently. We monitor fuel pressure at the pump outlet and the return side of the regulator. There's always more than one way to do something. I'm happy with what we have.
Last edited by CMcAllister; 02/16/23 03:56 PM.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: CMcAllister]
#3122101
02/16/23 03:59 PM
02/16/23 03:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,408 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
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I Live Here
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The return line must be at least as big as the supply line, minimum. Otherwise the return hose becomes the restriction. And if you are using a high GPH for application pump, it should be one size larger.
I've heard this before, but many don't agree w/ this. One of the engineers at Aeromotive recommended the -10 feed and -8 return on my car and it works flawlessly. Many factory EFI applications use a smaller return than feed also. I don't disagree that someone would tell you that. The tech guy I talked to at a company that builds high end carb fuel systems we've used told me same or larger. Along with the rest of it. You'll get different stories from different places, even though they are the ones who design, test and make the stuff. My thoughts were, if you run it up through 16' of -10 and return it through 16' of -8, how can the smaller line not be a restriction, to some degree, with a big pump? I want to control fuel pressure at the carb with the regulator, I want it to be consistent regardless fuel demand of the engine and we aren't running a lot of fuel pressure to the carb. Not all return regulators and systems are designed the same way. Different parts and pieces from different manufactures will function differently. We monitor fuel pressure at the pump outlet and the return side of the regulator. There's always more than one way to do something. I'm happy with what we have. I agree. If what you have works, who is to argue that? The bigger return line makes sense to me too.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: Tig]
#3122103
02/16/23 04:03 PM
02/16/23 04:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,587 Motor City
6PKRTSE
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MagnaFuel 500 2 x -10 pick up with -8 return at the pump. -12 to the reg (Aeromotive) and -8 to the 2 x 4 Dominators. Overkill for the fuel system but I was chasing a fueling issue (top end lean out) at the time and upsized all the fuel lines. The fueling system turned out not to be the issue but according to the data it helped Mine is the same set up as yours.
1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute 1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack 1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi 1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL 1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383 1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440 1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4 2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4 2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#3122108
02/16/23 04:27 PM
02/16/23 04:27 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,760 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
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Posts: 11,760
Fulton County, PA
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The return line must be at least as big as the supply line, minimum. Otherwise the return hose becomes the restriction. And if you are using a high GPH for application pump, it should be one size larger.
I've heard this before, but many don't agree w/ this. One of the engineers at Aeromotive recommended the -10 feed and -8 return on my car and it works flawlessly. Many factory EFI applications use a smaller return than feed also. So I'm curious as to why different people give different answers and I go look at Aeromotive's stuff since I'm not real familiar with it and I might learn something. Lord knows I'm wrong sometimes. I see Aeromotive makes a variety of return style regulators designed for different GPH pumps. in the instructions for their 13204 carb bypass regulator, these lines... "The enclosed Aeromotive regulator was designed to be used with fuel pumps up to 150 gph, similar to Aeromotive P/N 11101. Performance may be degraded if a similar pump is not used-" "Attach the fuel return line to the AN-08 bypass port located at the bottom of the regulator using a cutoff AN-08 style fitting (Aeromotive P/N 15607 or equivalent) and o-ring. The by-pass line back to the fuel tank must be no smaller than AN-08 size." Then in the instructions for the 13224 reg, this, along with a chart... "The enclosed Aeromotive regulator was designed to be used with fuel pumps up to 250 gph, similar to Aeromotive P/N 11101 or 11104. Performance may be degraded if a similar pump is not used." The big 13212 reg for 300+ GPH is made for all -10 stuff. Keep in mind the -8 hose from any of these places is 1/2" ID at best. Some are smaller. SO, the answer to "how large should the return line be?" is, depends. But it certainly can not be too large.
Last edited by CMcAllister; 02/16/23 04:33 PM.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: CMcAllister]
#3122127
02/16/23 06:04 PM
02/16/23 06:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,391 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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I Live Here
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FWIW I can get one brand talked about here a lot for FREE . But I choose to run the Weldon stuff....
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: return or deadhead
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3122129
02/16/23 06:13 PM
02/16/23 06:13 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,760 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,760
Fulton County, PA
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FWIW I can get one brand talked about here a lot for FREE . But I choose to run the Weldon stuff.... They are top shelf. No doubt.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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