Re: Transmission line routing to cooler
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#3109401
01/06/23 02:14 PM
01/06/23 02:14 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,708 Florida
BDW
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,708
Florida
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Thx,
Hard to trace those lines, but it looks like it goes through the radiator and to upper inlet, then back to tranny. I'm not going through radiator, front line on trans is pressure, back line is return.
So it I'll be routing the front line (pressure) to the top of cooler, and routing the lower line (return) to the back of the trans.
Never heard the trans fluid could be too cool, I'm in Central FL, so that shouldn't be a problem.
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Re: Transmission line routing to cooler
[Re: poorboy]
#3109624
01/07/23 12:39 AM
01/07/23 12:39 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,754 Phila
PhillyRag
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,754
Phila
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In Florida, your probably OK, but up here in northern IL where we can get cold weather in the winters, anything driven year around needs to run through the bottom of the radiator. Even with just the cooler in the bottom of the rad, the RE46 in my truck doesn't like to shift well until it runs enough to get the fluid temp up some when its cold like it was around Christmas this year. Once it got warmed up a bit, it worked great. Same as the A833 with gear oil in: hard shifting until that oil gets heated a little in cold temps.
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Re: Transmission line routing to cooler
[Re: PhillyRag]
#3109636
01/07/23 02:56 AM
01/07/23 02:56 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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In Florida, your probably OK, but up here in northern IL where we can get cold weather in the winters, anything driven year around needs to run through the bottom of the radiator. Even with just the cooler in the bottom of the rad, the RE46 in my truck doesn't like to shift well until it runs enough to get the fluid temp up some when its cold like it was around Christmas this year. Once it got warmed up a bit, it worked great. Same as the A833 with gear oil in: hard shifting until that oil gets heated a little in cold temps. A lot of the NP833 sold in the colder climate states came with ATF in them, that helps a lot for shifting them no matter where you live or drive
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Transmission line routing to cooler
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3109873
01/07/23 07:25 PM
01/07/23 07:25 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,754 Phila
PhillyRag
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,754
Phila
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In Florida, your probably OK, but up here in northern IL where we can get cold weather in the winters, anything driven year around needs to run through the bottom of the radiator. Even with just the cooler in the bottom of the rad, the RE46 in my truck doesn't like to shift well until it runs enough to get the fluid temp up some when its cold like it was around Christmas this year. Once it got warmed up a bit, it worked great. Same as the A833 with gear oil in: hard shifting until that oil gets heated a little in cold temps. A lot of the NP833 sold in the colder climate states came with ATF in them, that helps a lot for shifting them no matter where you live or drive Well aware of that. Chrysler made that change because of customer complaints. ATF not the best for gear box longevity if transmitting heavy loads. But chrysler wasn't concerned about longevity, only complaints. If AFT is OK for gear boxes, why not place in rear axles also? They're similar in design & usage.
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Re: Transmission line routing to cooler
[Re: PhillyRag]
#3109919
01/07/23 09:23 PM
01/07/23 09:23 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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[quote=Cab_Burge][quote=PhillyRag][quote=poorboy] If AFT is OK for gear boxes, why not place in rear axles also? They're similar in design & usage. Not alike at all in my opinion The cluster gear acts as a reducer in all gears but direct and then in high gear, the sliders are handling the power in conjunction with the input shaft and output shafts. The ring and pinion gears are being fed power through the driveshaft and are loaded anytime the car is moving forcing the gear oil in and out of between the gears over and over, trust the makers to use the cheapest lube that they can that will do the job and not cause part failures and customer complaints. A friend, and fellow stocker class drag racer, of mine tried to use 30 Wt. motor oil in his 8 3/4 for one pass at the track, it was very noisy on the return road after that single pass so he took it home and put in another new set of rear gears
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Transmission line routing to cooler
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3110227
01/09/23 12:11 AM
01/09/23 12:11 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,754 Phila
PhillyRag
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,754
Phila
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[quote=Cab_Burge][quote=PhillyRag][quote=poorboy] If AFT is OK for gear boxes, why not place in rear axles also? They're similar in design & usage. Not alike at all in my opinion The cluster gear acts as a reducer in all gears but direct and then in high gear, the sliders are handling the power in conjunction with the input shaft and output shafts. The ring and pinion gears are being fed power through the driveshaft and are loaded anytime the car is moving forcing the gear oil in and out of between the gears over and over, trust the makers to use the cheapest lube that they can that will do the job and not cause part failures and customer complaints. (then WHY the change from gear to atf?. Designers needed gear, customer satisfaction wanted atf)A friend, and fellow stocker class drag racer, of mine tried to use 30 Wt. motor oil in his 8 3/4 for one pass at the track, it was very noisy on the return road after that single pass so he took it home and put in another new set of rear gears Of course not alike, but similar. So in 1,2,3rd they both act alike. And yes I know how 4th is different. It's still gear reduction under heavy loads, that simple.
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Re: Transmission line routing to cooler
[Re: PhillyRag]
#3110436
01/09/23 09:12 PM
01/09/23 09:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538 Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
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The biggest difference between the 4/5 speed and the rear axle is the cold weather internal gear movement, and what powers that movement. With the standard manual trans, cold shifting is human controlled. A person needs to be able to move the shifter from 1st gear to 2nd gear, or from 1st gear into reverse, or from reverse into 1st gear. I can promise you with 80/90 in the 4 speed box, at -20, that becomes pretty complicated. Back in my younger years, diving that 4 speed 66 Coronet in the winter was quite an experience. It sat on the street in front of my house through the winters. The winter of 78/79 was bad, lots of snow, lots of cold. Most nights the over night temps reached a real -20F to -30F, on the nights the temp was higher, we usually got blasted with snow. When I came home from work, I would park so I could move forward out of the parking place, then I parked the car in 1st gear. In the mornings (5 am) I could shove the clutch in, and start the motor, but I couldn't move the shifter for the trans, there was no put it in neutral to let it warm up. I drove out of the parking space and onto the street. I had 3 stop signs each a block away. By the time I got to the 3rd sign, I could force the shifter into 2nd, and then could shift normally. The car had a 3:23 Sure grip. Through those first 3 stop signs, the rear was pretty much locked, no sharp turns were going to happen. By that 3rd sign, I could at least make turns. On days the temps were above 0*, the trans shift was stiff, but doable, and the sure grip would at least allow turns if not under power. ATF in the gear box would have been great. The rear axle is driven by the driveshaft. That motor has a lot more power then a persons arm or the shift rods, levers, and forks inside the gear box. The issue with the gear box is not the gears turning, the motor will easily overpower that, the issue is with gear changing and shifting. With the 80/90 in the rear, the worst thing that could happen would be the differential may drag on turns giving a locked rear feeling if traction on the road surface was questionable. The drive shaft will turn, the gears will mesh, and the wheels will turn (unless there is brake drag). Until the 80/90 gets a little warm, the spider gears may resist moving freely until that 80/90 warms up, so you basically have a sure grip until that happens. It the gear box never sees cold weather, run thicker lube. If it sees cold weather, run thinner lube. I suspect back in those days with the Coronet, that 80/90 wasn't providing much lube until it got warmed up(maybe that was what warmed up the gear lube in the 1st place). I can assure you, the gear lube wasn't the biggest issue that 4 speed saw, it was the 19 year old lead foot driver.
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Re: Transmission line routing to cooler
[Re: poorboy]
#3110447
01/09/23 10:04 PM
01/09/23 10:04 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,754 Phila
PhillyRag
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,754
Phila
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Yeap: drove a 4-speed challenger year round. On real cold mornings, usually idled few minutes in neutral to get oil moving. And yes still somewhat harder to shift. But like you said, manageable after few stops/goes. Guess best thing to do back then would be to switch oils for winter/summer, but I just tolerated the cold days myself. Was always a gas to drive a stick in snowy roads. The biggest difference between the 4/5 speed and the rear axle is the cold weather internal gear movement, and what powers that movement. With the standard manual trans, cold shifting is human controlled. A person needs to be able to move the shifter from 1st gear to 2nd gear, or from 1st gear into reverse, or from reverse into 1st gear. I can promise you with 80/90 in the 4 speed box, at -20, that becomes pretty complicated. Back in my younger years, diving that 4 speed 66 Coronet in the winter was quite an experience. It sat on the street in front of my house through the winters. The winter of 78/79 was bad, lots of snow, lots of cold. Most nights the over night temps reached a real -20F to -30F, on the nights the temp was higher, we usually got blasted with snow. When I came home from work, I would park so I could move forward out of the parking place, then I parked the car in 1st gear. In the mornings (5 am) I could shove the clutch in, and start the motor, but I couldn't move the shifter for the trans, there was no put it in neutral to let it warm up. I drove out of the parking space and onto the street. I had 3 stop signs each a block away. By the time I got to the 3rd sign, I could force the shifter into 2nd, and then could shift normally. The car had a 3:23 Sure grip. Through those first 3 stop signs, the rear was pretty much locked, no sharp turns were going to happen. By that 3rd sign, I could at least make turns. On days the temps were above 0*, the trans shift was stiff, but doable, and the sure grip would at least allow turns if not under power. ATF in the gear box would have been great. The rear axle is driven by the driveshaft. That motor has a lot more power then a persons arm or the shift rods, levers, and forks inside the gear box. The issue with the gear box is not the gears turning, the motor will easily overpower that, the issue is with gear changing and shifting. With the 80/90 in the rear, the worst thing that could happen would be the differential may drag on turns giving a locked rear feeling if traction on the road surface was questionable. The drive shaft will turn, the gears will mesh, and the wheels will turn (unless there is brake drag). Until the 80/90 gets a little warm, the spider gears may resist moving freely until that 80/90 warms up, so you basically have a sure grip until that happens. It the gear box never sees cold weather, run thicker lube. If it sees cold weather, run thinner lube. I suspect back in those days with the Coronet, that 80/90 wasn't providing much lube until it got warmed up(maybe that was what warmed up the gear lube in the 1st place). I can assure you, the gear lube wasn't the biggest issue that 4 speed saw, it was the 19 year old lead foot driver.
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