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Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: Dragula] #3087091
10/18/22 09:23 AM
10/18/22 09:23 AM
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Offline
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I'd talk w/ Dwayne Porter before you jump ship and build a wedge. He spec'd my cam and springs. No issues here and we're using "similar" setups.
I have DLI roller rockers, MP shafts, and MP stands on MP heads.
You obviously have something wrong...whether it's the cam/spring combo or an oiling issue, I don't know.


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: an8sec70cuda] #3087105
10/18/22 10:27 AM
10/18/22 10:27 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline OP
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Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
I'd talk w/ Dwayne Porter before you jump ship and build a wedge. He spec'd my cam and springs. No issues here and we're using "similar" setups.
I have DLI roller rockers, MP shafts, and MP stands on MP heads.
You obviously have something wrong...whether it's the cam/spring combo or an oiling issue, I don't know.


Well, my thinking is, if we test the other intake springs and find that they have fatigued as well, its an oiling issue for sure, which is what I am pretty sure it is...Last time, I broke 4 of them, all intake springs. We will look at the oil feed holes in the rockers and see what they look like with the valve covers off. The only fix will be the RB rockers....And I already have a cam on order with a milder ramp rate...

I was on Indy's Facebook page, man those Predator engines make some steam....


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: Dragula] #3087107
10/18/22 10:30 AM
10/18/22 10:30 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,367
Wheatfield, NY
Cuda340 Offline
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Randy,

What oil are you running? Hemi's need 20-50 to keep the oil in the top half.

Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: Cuda340] #3087126
10/18/22 11:36 AM
10/18/22 11:36 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Cuda340
Randy,

What oil are you running? Hemi's need 20-50 to keep the oil in the top half.


We run Penn Grade 20-50.......Pretty sure we are doing everything right, but ....this issue is not going away without changing somthing.


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: Dragula] #3087155
10/18/22 01:16 PM
10/18/22 01:16 PM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 114
NW Indiana
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powertrip Offline
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If your problems are truly related to spring oiling, here is something that can be adapted without spending 5K, and it came from one of your threads:

Screenshot 2022-10-18 121130.jpg
Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: Dragula] #3087156
10/18/22 01:20 PM
10/18/22 01:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 114
NW Indiana
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powertrip Offline
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Originally Posted by Dragula


I was on Indy's Facebook page, man those Predator engines make some steam....


I have to agree with you there, more power and problably better reliability than a Hemi.

Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: powertrip] #3087164
10/18/22 01:51 PM
10/18/22 01:51 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline OP
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Originally Posted by powertrip
If your problems are truly related to spring oiling, here is something that can be adapted without spending 5K, and it came from one of your threads:



I know who's engine that is....He used to frequent here a lot, then he sold that car. We talked about this, and I am not sure that would provide enough "spray" for a valve spring issue....might be good for push rod tips....I would have to try it. This is why I am shocked Indy or others do not make spray bar valve covers for a Hemi...


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: Dragula] #3087198
10/18/22 03:47 PM
10/18/22 03:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,450
Morristown Tn.
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71birdJ68 Offline
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Well, one this, Chrysler never intended for these to be street engines. The first Gen Hemi and the Third Gen Hemi were designed from the start as a street engine and then adapted to racing. I still think having a stock oil system that oils the top end on a street engine is the way to go, maybe, even add spray bars.

Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: 71birdJ68] #3087223
10/18/22 04:42 PM
10/18/22 04:42 PM
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Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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I had spray bars in my Hemi in the Cuda. Never had any issues with it....


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: Dragula] #3087236
10/18/22 05:21 PM
10/18/22 05:21 PM
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Posts: 8,021
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish Offline
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Looking at your first picture. Can you drill a hole in the rocker arm that would direct oil to spray on the spring?

Does all the oil still return through the valley like a small block? Can you change the drainback to allow the covers to fill with more oil and make contact with the spring? I know the springs on my small block likely sit submerged in oil at highway RPM providing them good cooling. 8 drag weeks and no spring problems. My last set had 3 drag weeks over 5 years of racing and street driving. Likely only 4000-5000 miles because I don't drive it as much as I would like.

I wouldn't be afraid to spray bar oil them heavily on the street and use a valve to shut oil off the to the spray bars when you race.

Last edited by Bad340fish; 10/18/22 05:22 PM.

68 Barracuda Formula S 340
Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: Bad340fish] #3087322
10/18/22 10:48 PM
10/18/22 10:48 PM
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WNY
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WNY
Tim at FHO has Stage V drill an oil feed hole in the intake rockers to oil the roller tip on street Hemi's that see sustained driving under 3000rpm. That would also supply extra oil for spring cooling. Are you running the installed height to provide 0.060 cl to coil bind at max lift to prevent spring harmonics?

Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: Dragula] #3087456
10/19/22 12:25 PM
10/19/22 12:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,357
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Offline
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Originally Posted by Dragula
Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
I'd talk w/ Dwayne Porter before you jump ship and build a wedge. He spec'd my cam and springs. No issues here and we're using "similar" setups.
I have DLI roller rockers, MP shafts, and MP stands on MP heads.
You obviously have something wrong...whether it's the cam/spring combo or an oiling issue, I don't know.


Well, my thinking is, if we test the other intake springs and find that they have fatigued as well, its an oiling issue for sure, which is what I am pretty sure it is...Last time, I broke 4 of them, all intake springs. We will look at the oil feed holes in the rockers and see what they look like with the valve covers off. The only fix will be the RB rockers....And I already have a cam on order with a milder ramp rate...

I was on Indy's Facebook page, man those Predator engines make some steam....

So you're going to change two things at once. If it solves the issue, great, but you'll never know what the cause really was.
I'm leaning towards it being a cam/spring issue. You don't need rocker arms designed for a high rpm super stocker to keep a hemi alive on the street.


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: Dragula] #3087481
10/19/22 01:37 PM
10/19/22 01:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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Did you groove the # 4 cam journal to oil the rockers full time.
If not I would, wrench up you may need to add an oil passage restrictor to your rockers if they are needle bearing on the shafts to avoid flooding the heads work scope

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 10/20/22 01:49 AM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: Dragula] #3087553
10/19/22 06:04 PM
10/19/22 06:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 154
Canada
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Originally Posted by Dragula
I think back and wonder if I had put a built 572 Wedge for this car instead of a Hemi, how many fewer times, would I have had to pull the engine for somthing like this? Probably never....Pretty frustrated to have to pull the engine every other year with so little run time on it. Half temped to sell it and build a Wedge motor cause the only thing I see solving this issue is a set of $5k Ray Barton rockers...


I have the barton rockers, and they are jewelry forsure, but not the only answer..... So many things get overlooked, like prime the engine with covers off to see how well oil is getting to the spring. was the spring close to coil bind? was the spring not compressed enough? did you just check a spec sheet or did you actually measure it..... because if you measured it i would be willing to bet it has less lift then you may think. There is some deflection in rocker gear. It can be done, I know because I have done it. Four years ago I competed in a drag and drive event with a cam that was .791 lift and @50 it was 282intake and 300exh, in the event we did over 350 miles in 2 days. Not huge, but i drove the car like that for years without an issue for years, and my new cam is bigger. I had norris steel rockers on a indy 1RA cylinder head. I didn't use any oil restrictors and had -10AN drain backs in back of each head.

Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: cuda499] #3087645
10/19/22 11:07 PM
10/19/22 11:07 PM
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Tulsa OK
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That is a great point about measured lift vs what is on the card. The difference from my cam card to the lift at the retainer is rather large. Large enough that If I was shimming the spring off of the card I would hardly have been in the zip code of the right shim pack.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: Bad340fish] #3087790
10/20/22 01:00 PM
10/20/22 01:00 PM
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Posts: 4,563
Motor City
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That is why I like my RBRE rocker system. It has built in oilers within the bars. I have over .800 lift and street drive mine all over.

rsz_20151008_074929.jpg20210915_170941.jpg

1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute
1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack
1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi
1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL
1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383
1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440
1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4
2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4
2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: 6PKRTSE] #3087792
10/20/22 01:08 PM
10/20/22 01:08 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Originally Posted by 6PKRTSE
That is why I like my RBRE rocker system. It has built in oilers within the bars. I have over .800 lift and street drive mine all over.


And the holes in the gold spray bar are pointed right at the intake springs, correct?

Last edited by Dragula; 10/20/22 01:09 PM.

'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: Dragula] #3087807
10/20/22 02:06 PM
10/20/22 02:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
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They point at the intake pushrod tip, which then also sprays the spring.

Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: Dyno1] #3088405
10/22/22 09:29 PM
10/22/22 09:29 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline OP
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I have a plan....I am going to order some parts and see if I can Engineer my way out of this problem....The good thing is, I have really good oil pressure at idle, so making my own spray bars hopefully won't hurt my oil pressure at idle....I still can't believe nobody makes a kit for this stupid issue....


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Found it!....Stupid Hemi [Re: Dragula] #3088425
10/22/22 11:00 PM
10/22/22 11:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,406
Ambridge, Pa.
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rickraw Offline
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Those holes in the spray tube are very tiny. Maybe someone will let you know the size. Too big a hole will drop oil pressure

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