Found it!....Stupid Hemi

Pulled the Hemi on Saturday, but had no more time to work on it, and Sunday we had family in town....So literally, at 8pm this evening I went out into the garage to look for the issue....AND I FOUND IT!

I think street driving is not allowing enough oil onto the intake springs to keep them cool enough....

Curious to see the faces of the broken parts. Can you post a pic of the broken parts so the fractured surface is clear to see? Good catch.

Probably next week when I get it apart.....This week I need it to mock up my header repairs.

Only found one broken spring...#5 Intake.....Last time it was 3-4 of them, all intake springs....

Kblam
I hope nothing else got hurt, bent valves, valve seats
Have you leak it yet? If so, is it healthy still

Kmotion ?

The first set I broke were the Pacalloy's from Indy, and these are Howard's....Its not the springs, its the lack of oil street driving it. I either need spray bars or RB T&D's....I think....

Open to ideas cause I know only one other person that made spray bars....Everyone else, says they don't need them, so its weird to me more people don't suffer from this issue.

I doubt Chips hemi has any better oiling to the intake springs than yours.

But....... maybe it does

Are you using pushrod oiling? Could that help get more oil splashing around those springs? Just a comment from the peanut gallery, assuming your lifters get oil

I've heard of lack of spring oiling to cause springs to go soft, never as a cause for them to break.

But I'm no Hemi expert.

Do your rockers have the oil squirt hole? My stock rockers do but I have an aftermarket set that don’t (non roller). What’s the ramp and close speed on that cam? Aggressive? I’ve heard of breaking springs with that type of cam. Bad harmonics

Yes, I believe they do...Might have one plugged with crud, gonna have to check.
Current cam is fairly aggressive...But it is not a race only cam

.470 is a lot of lobe lift regardless of aggressiveness. Springs are getting worked hard. What are the specs on the springs and what installed height ? Additionally how close to bind are you running ?

For reference I'm running in the .380 lobe lift range and have never had a spring failure with a lot of street driving and idle time.

AG.

Went back up and looked at spring, double with a damper? I’d look at coil bind with that lift to, .292 duration at .745 life is a race cam in my book and needs at least 1,550 triple springs with guides cut down. jmo

Coil bind was checked for at assembly, but I do not recall how much before I get into it...We always check it. What I do know is if you heat cycle heavy duty springs without cooling them with oil, they break....

And I know of members on here running A LOT more lift in a Hemi on the street than I am....Its a 605 and needs to breath...Heck the heads flow like 460cfm...So really, the cam would be kinda average lift for an engine this big. I run a .713 lift cam in my 400 based stroker....

Do you have any restrictors any where in the galleries? I agree that they need all the oil they can get. I have I think Mopar performance roller tip rockers that have squirt holes for the springs and the pushrod tips also. I put around 3000 miles on a set of springs with no issues. Also on the the pushrod oiling thing, I had a set of lifters like that by mistake and it screwed up the oil pressure like crazy. Most of us street guys running big cams with stiff springs I think need to put new springs in every now and then.

And yes, there is/are feed restrictors in the block right below the heads.
Springs were new last year, and I put about 2000 miles on them, and 70 miles on them this year, and then 2 drag strip passes....

I was talking to Tod Marsh about this and he agrees, the second thing oil does is carry away heat and that a street engine that is run for hours on end unlike a race engine needs oil flow more than a race engine. I don't have any restarts, or anything like that. Let it flow. I also made a tool to pull the springs without pulling the heads for this.

As stated, not sure what would be considered a "race only cam" if that one's not. .700" and 280+ duration lol, slightly larger than OE...

I run .767 lift on mine, I've worn out the first set of springs, retainers, and keepers after about 8-9 years. Also replaced 2 sets of pushrods, ( I raised the idle to 1200 and that has helped with the valve train oiling.

I think back and wonder if I had put a built 572 Wedge for this car instead of a Hemi, how many fewer times, would I have had to pull the engine for somthing like this? Probably never....Pretty frustrated to have to pull the engine every other year with so little run time on it. Half temped to sell it and build a Wedge motor cause the only thing I see solving this issue is a set of $5k Ray Barton rockers...

I'd talk w/ Dwayne Porter before you jump ship and build a wedge. He spec'd my cam and springs. No issues here and we're using "similar" setups.
I have DLI roller rockers, MP shafts, and MP stands on MP heads.
You obviously have something wrong...whether it's the cam/spring combo or an oiling issue, I don't know.

Well, my thinking is, if we test the other intake springs and find that they have fatigued as well, its an oiling issue for sure, which is what I am pretty sure it is...Last time, I broke 4 of them, all intake springs. We will look at the oil feed holes in the rockers and see what they look like with the valve covers off. The only fix will be the RB rockers....And I already have a cam on order with a milder ramp rate...

I was on Indy's Facebook page, man those Predator engines make some steam....

Randy,

What oil are you running? Hemi's need 20-50 to keep the oil in the top half.

We run Penn Grade 20-50.......Pretty sure we are doing everything right, but ....this issue is not going away without changing somthing.

If your problems are truly related to spring oiling, here is something that can be adapted without spending 5K, and it came from one of your threads:

I have to agree with you there, more power and problably better reliability than a Hemi.

I know who's engine that is....He used to frequent here a lot, then he sold that car. We talked about this, and I am not sure that would provide enough "spray" for a valve spring issue....might be good for push rod tips....I would have to try it. This is why I am shocked Indy or others do not make spray bar valve covers for a Hemi...

Well, one this, Chrysler never intended for these to be street engines. The first Gen Hemi and the Third Gen Hemi were designed from the start as a street engine and then adapted to racing. I still think having a stock oil system that oils the top end on a street engine is the way to go, maybe, even add spray bars.

I had spray bars in my Hemi in the Cuda. Never had any issues with it....

Looking at your first picture. Can you drill a hole in the rocker arm that would direct oil to spray on the spring?

Does all the oil still return through the valley like a small block? Can you change the drainback to allow the covers to fill with more oil and make contact with the spring? I know the springs on my small block likely sit submerged in oil at highway RPM providing them good cooling. 8 drag weeks and no spring problems. My last set had 3 drag weeks over 5 years of racing and street driving. Likely only 4000-5000 miles because I don't drive it as much as I would like.

I wouldn't be afraid to spray bar oil them heavily on the street and use a valve to shut oil off the to the spray bars when you race.

Tim at FHO has Stage V drill an oil feed hole in the intake rockers to oil the roller tip on street Hemi's that see sustained driving under 3000rpm. That would also supply extra oil for spring cooling. Are you running the installed height to provide 0.060 cl to coil bind at max lift to prevent spring harmonics?

So you're going to change two things at once. If it solves the issue, great, but you'll never know what the cause really was.
I'm leaning towards it being a cam/spring issue. You don't need rocker arms designed for a high rpm super stocker to keep a hemi alive on the street.

Did you groove the # 4 cam journal to oil the rockers full time.
If not I would, you may need to add an oil passage restrictor to your rockers if they are needle bearing on the shafts to avoid flooding the heads

I have the barton rockers, and they are jewelry forsure, but not the only answer..... So many things get overlooked, like prime the engine with covers off to see how well oil is getting to the spring. was the spring close to coil bind? was the spring not compressed enough? did you just check a spec sheet or did you actually measure it..... because if you measured it i would be willing to bet it has less lift then you may think. There is some deflection in rocker gear. It can be done, I know because I have done it. Four years ago I competed in a drag and drive event with a cam that was .791 lift and @50 it was 282intake and 300exh, in the event we did over 350 miles in 2 days. Not huge, but i drove the car like that for years without an issue for years, and my new cam is bigger. I had norris steel rockers on a indy 1RA cylinder head. I didn't use any oil restrictors and had -10AN drain backs in back of each head.

That is a great point about measured lift vs what is on the card. The difference from my cam card to the lift at the retainer is rather large. Large enough that If I was shimming the spring off of the card I would hardly have been in the zip code of the right shim pack.

That is why I like my RBRE rocker system. It has built in oilers within the bars. I have over .800 lift and street drive mine all over.

And the holes in the gold spray bar are pointed right at the intake springs, correct?

They point at the intake pushrod tip, which then also sprays the spring.

I have a plan....I am going to order some parts and see if I can Engineer my way out of this problem....The good thing is, I have really good oil pressure at idle, so making my own spray bars hopefully won't hurt my oil pressure at idle....I still can't believe nobody makes a kit for this stupid issue....

Those holes in the spray tube are very tiny. Maybe someone will let you know the size. Too big a hole will drop oil pressure

Maybe I'm wrong but I've read that some Indy rockers, depending on when they were made, lack oiling holes.

The stock ductile rockers I'm using have an oil hole for the pushrods and the valve tip.

I'm running them with no restrictors and pushrod oiling. Still went from 20-50 to 5-30 oil due to high pressure.



I would think you could achieve what you need by adding oiling holes to your current rockers and removing any restrictors.



Aside from that, not sure of the exact details of your springs/setup but wouldn't usually correlate a dual spring with damper as a high end spring for high lift street use.

I like PSI ML springs with exceldyne locks/retainers for whatever it's worth.

So in mocking this up, I am wanting some custom ARP fasteners. I faxed over a quick CAD drawing of what I want to ARP, and then called them....Man are they backed up on custom orders....Like 6 months I am told....

So this may take all winter....

I know people that have had ARP studs on back order for a lot longer than 6 months.

So to fix an AFR problem on the Hemi, I had the slip fit header tubes welded up between snow storms....I will post pics when painted again...

I hope they still install easily

My Headers are welded and you will have to pull the bars on an E Body to get them out of the car but could just leave them laying around the bars when you pull a motor. Bartons stuff is very very nice. To me if 5 K fixes the problem and more research is needed before you spend the 5K for the Barton set up that is much cheaper than a costly repair to a set of heads or a complete motor. How much is in your motor now, so it is like buying an insurance policy. The spray bars need to be looked at and cleaned also. This type of motor like said above is really not built for the street. Even the 1966/7 motor had next to nothing for cam lift, 68/69 a little more and 70/71 went to Hyd.to make them live on the street. These motors need there yearly once over and checked. One other thing, I believe in a lot of Oil both quanity and quality and pressure/volume.Maybe not what a race motor will get in pressure but still a high number.This is not a quick fix untill the problem is nailed down to what has happened or your problem will reoccure again and again so make the change that will fix it once. It takes time so take that time withour any emotions to cloud your decisions. I say that because we all have been in a similiar situation and toss money that is not needed trying for a quick fix. Good Luck

They pop in and out, no problem....I have a MF front end....nothing in the way...

I welded up my Hooker Super Comp Hemi headers on my E Body also. I have a AlterKation from suspension so no torsion bars either.

Headers all repainted....between blizzards here.

Would have been a good place to install V band clamps. Could still take a couple tubes out for starter replacement.

I can pull the starter with just loosening the header slightly...It doesn't have to be removed, or any of the tubes...

Yes, same here. I can change my starter without removing the header. I did you V Band clamps on the collectors.

5210 Super Comps? 2& 1/8" primary, 3&1/2 collector?
(just checking to see what I have to look forward to)

Mines pretty easy to work on considering the big Hemi in there....

When I first saw this picture all those pipes it reminded me of snake mating season
Don't get weird when you get old, like me please

HAHAHAHA !!!!! hey Cab, i think we are supposed to get weird when we get old !

6PK, can you tell me where you got the turn downs for your race bullets in your picture, and what angle they are ?
a big TIA.

Just about ready to start testing....Need more parts. ..

Smart and didn't cost you 5K, I like it!

Hope this solves your spring problems, what springs have you gone with?

I had Pacalloy and then Howards....It does not seem brand specific.....Would love a set of Bartons, but not in the budget right now....Hell, if this works, I don't even have to put a new cam I bought in it...

[b][/b]

That header shot from the bottom is beautiful. Nice car for all the work you have put into it.

I think you're kidding yourself if you want to run a .700+ lift solid roller on the street and not replace valvesprings. This is why those "street car classes" are a joke, guys running cams bigger than this and having to replace valve springs during the event... ya real street car

Agreed.....

Well, I did buy a milder cam as this valve spring replacement thing is not for me....But, I might just test my new oiling setup with my current cam and see what I get.

Its not that mild....It still has a bit of duration and .700 lift at the valve....Just has a different ramp rate for drag and drive events. So -.050" lift and same duration...As I was hoping to lose as little HP as possible. Or switch to 572 or bigger wedge engine over a Hemi...My spray bars should work though. We are going to test them on the bench soon.

Have you ever ran a street car with 700 lift or more? Ive done several without an issue, and that includes hemi's. Spintron technology has helped valvetrain advance a lot in last 5-8 years.

My old pump gas Duster motor had right at .700 net lift on both valves with 250 Lbs. on the seats and 680 Lbs. open pressure and didn't have any issues with valve springs dying
I did have the number four cam journal grooved for full time oiling to the rocker shafts and restricted the oil flow in the block down to.041, the original valve springs lost 30 lbs. pressure at max lift after 1800 miles street driving., one .030 shim fix that

I Street drive and race my 70 Challenger back and forth to work, the stores, cruise nights and car shows with a over .800 custom nitrous 55MM roller bearing camshaft with no issues with valve springs. However, I live within walking distance from PAC for when I do need them. I usually test them every 2 seasons. And replace as needed.

I Agree

So I have all of the spray bars built now and installed. I even built two more to put in the middle, but the big doesn't think I need the ones in the middle...I was hoping to test them today as my Milodon oil pump cover showed up as well, but then I promptly cross threaded the oil line on the pan...So, I can't bench test them until I fix that issue.

So I guess an update is needed....

Pulled the rest of the engine apart to put the new cam in. This one has a milder ramp rate, and takes lower pressure valve springs.

Well, we found #8 rod bearing burnt...Probably from the ridiculously short shut down at our track....Also found #7 cylinder with some scoring in it. Not bad, but enough that it will take a few though to clean it up. And lastly, the header gasket was blown...Never killed one of those on a Hemi before....

So what to do with it all...I could put the old rotating assembly in the new block, and find a spot to put a 2qrt accumulator on it...but that kinda defeats the purpose of having a new block. I could look at an entire new rotating assembly for the old block, or just a set of new pistons...or just sell it all and go a different route...

For now, I am thinking about what my next move is. Looking for a set of 4.505 pistons is on the list, as well as pricing an entire rotating kit. And seeing who has what for sale.

I've bought 4.505" Diamond pistons from Ray Barton before. Since the rings are .005" over anyway they worked out fine.

Dragula, it's a bummer to see what issues you've had with your Hemi.

Thanks to the guys on the forum I had a heads up on the Hemi's potential oiling issues on the street with decent roller cams.

Being aware of this, after the first few street drives I pulled the covers for a peek. The exh pushrods were just starting to go a light yellow colour where the cup meets the pushrod tube. You know how it goes, light yellow, dark yellow, brown then black/blue from a lack of oil. The intakes were fine, this was with a .750"/.680", 270/280 @ .050" Bullet roller. I asked for streetable lobes/ramps but that's another story for another day. Rockers are Stage V intakes and widepad OEM exhausts.

I figured I'd have a crack and try to solve the issue without spending mondo dineros, so I tapped into the spare oil port at the back of the block with a tee fitting and ran 1 brake hard line to a SS fitting mounted in the front of of one valve cover and the other hard line to another small SS fitting in rear of the other valve cover. These fittings were installed to these flared hard lines with tube nuts through the valve cover walls and sealed, then I ran hard lines inside from one end of the VC to the other and marked/secured/angled them towards the pushrod cups on the exh side. They were them bonded in place in the walls of the cast VCs with JB Weld.

Next step, I drilled and countersunk holes in the tubes opposite the springs/pushrod cups, then soldered them shut, (the mild countersink was to allow the solder to have adequate area to "grab" to the tube) then used a pin drill to drill tiny holes in the soldered area. Patience was the key here, ie cut tubes, flare, route, trial fit, remove, mark holes, remove, drill, solder, pin drill, reinstall, test. Repeat for other side.

Then came the a street tests and checks, like magic - the cleaned pushrods stayed clean and the problem went away.

Intakes are still fine and everything still looks good. As for the cam, thanks to input from a great member here, eventually I swapped it out with a grind that has a lobe that won't beat up on the valvetrain and still make really good power. And it does. So far so good !

I learned if a Hemi's roller cam is much over .200 deg duration @ .200" lift......the lobe can give you issues on the street; I was told to keep it under 200.

Hope this helps.

I made four spray bars for the intake valve springs...Only broke one this time around...Checked one of the others, and it still had full spring pressure, which I was not expecting. Hopefully these solve my valvetrain oiling issues, now I have a lower oiling issue as well. So I am going to use glyptall from Eastwood and do the whole inside of the block to help with oil drain back. After that, it needs an accumulator. I seem to go thru this every year...Looking forward to the day I do not have to pull the engine.

So smart cam guys, answer me this, how is it I am told the biggest hydraulic roller I can get is like a .600 lift cam....Yet the new Chevy 632 crate engine has a .780 hydraulic roller.....I keep going back to that engine, because it checks ALL the boxes of what I want in a Hemi....How do they get away with that, and how could I?

Good question !

The 632 Shivvy specs out :

Camshaft Type: Billet Steel Hydraulic Roller
Valve Lift (in.): 0.780 intake/0.782 exhaust
Camshaft Duration (@0.050 in.): 270º intake/287º exhaust, 113 LSA
Cylinder Heads: Aluminum spread-port; 70cc chambers -RS-X design
Valve Size (in.): 2.450 intake/1.800 exhaust,Titanium (5/16-in stem OD)

So it has lighter, small stem Ti valves, shaft rockers, and a steep 1.8 rocker ratio. The actual lobe lift would be a lot less, who knows what spring they're using to control it. I believe the lifters have a .904 or slightly larger” diameter body with a .850” wheel on needle bearings. At 12:1 cr, you'd think it has smallish chambers, flat tops and a supertight quench. Note the LSA.

Hemi is a different engine/different design so has different challenges for hyd cams that rpm. I believe pushrod angles in the hemi design load up the juice lifters and have clearance issues in the head/block if its a decent lift cam. Long exh rockers add valvetrain mass as well.

Whos using a decent lift juice roller in a big inch Hemi? Not saying it can't be done, but from what I've read, it seems to be more trouble that its worth given the limited choices we have with this platform compared to the General Maintenance crowd.

The RBRE rocker system helps take out the rocker geometry issues that many Hemi's have. The spray bar oilers also help keep everything cooler. Haven't broken any springs, yet.... As I mentioned above, I run over .800 lift in my 528" Hemi on the street. Actually, I had it out cruisin around Saturday since we were in the 50's here in Mich. Some of you locals probably heard it. Lol.

So I have updated my plan for the last time...I hope....

Can't seem to get a quote on pistons with a reasonable lead time, so....

I am putting all my stuff in the new block. For better oil control, we are adding a coating inside the block, Glyptol I think, we are throwing away the old windage tray that has no louvers or holes in it for one that does, we are reducing the restrictors from .063 to .040" and looking to add a small accumulator somewhere. I am still installing the spray bars in the valve covers for the intake springs. We are also switching to a milder cam that only needs 180# closed on the springs.

The old block needs .005-.010 pistons, and I might sell it. Already got a call on it this morning.

Should have it all done in the next couple weeks and ready for the season, or least ready to install it.

Mean while the new wedge bullet is almost in my Duster....

I am not a fan of the glyptol coating. It flakes off eventually over time. All goes somewhere. Through the engine, oil pump etc. The restrictors is probably an okay change I would go with the larger accumulator. The largest you have room for. I use mine with an electric solenoid as a primer before I fire the engine and also as designed in case of an oil pressure issue. I like a clean engine bay so I mounted my 3 qt on some custom made tubular mounts off of the core support behind the front bumper.

The last engine I had with the coating never flaked off...It worked well, so I just got a brand new can of it from Eastwood.

As far as hiding the accumulator, I had a 2quart one hidden under the radiator...Literally underneath it.....But I have a new rad, and this one required an external trans cooler, and the hoses run thru there now, so I doubt it will fit there...

I have an external trans cooler in addition to the radiator. Here is how I mounted mine.

What did you clamp that to? There isn't much up there to anchor to..

I was warn about painting blocks that had been run with oil in them to clean them thoroughly with solvents and then brake cleaner and finally use a heat gun to dry the blocks out before painting them. That works well
You need to hold the heat on the block long enough to see the moisture come to the surface and then evaporate before moving the heated spot around to dry the complete intake valley and the front of the blocks were the timing sets go
I don't use Glyptal now, I use Rust oleum Damp Proof red primer to seal them

It will probably go in the oven and bake for a while at 120°-180° for an hour....Its brand new, but does have light oil on it.


And I got this little guy to install....

I made tubular mounts that go to the core support using the factory lower radiator mounting through bolts.

Well, not only am I not ready for racing, my Hemiroid has hit another snag....Last plan was to use the new block with the old rotating assembly...Got it all painted with Glyptol, got it all honed out, got the cam bearings in, got the cam in it, got pistons and assembled, polished the crank, put the crank and new bearings in the engine and torqued it all down....

Now here is where I want to thank Callies...

I got two blocks, about 2 years apart....Both are the same part number...But guess what....Callies has two different machining programs....One that has clearance for rods, and one that does not....I managed to get one of each, which we did not know about till today, when the first piston assembly went in and hit hard....Thanks Callies...

That be another reason I call them hemiroid motors
Get the die grinder and bits out and start making some chips and clearances

My pump gas Duster (.730 net lift on the intakes and .705 net lift on the exhaust valves) had over 3500 street miles and hundreds of passes at the track with no bad valve springs, I did shim them between .015 and .030 when I switch heads the last time to keep the seat and open pressures within 5 to 30. lbs. when I first put it together back when( between 2002/2004)
The key is to use good valve springs to start with and make sure they get enough oil on them to keep them cool enough to not loose tension when driving or racing them

Well this years cam is .701 and .698....Similar duration...I hope it runs really good and keeps springs alive. It is one of their milder ramps rates and uses less required spring pressure and is a tighter lash...So we will eventually see...maybe in a couple of months.