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Re: Parking brake won't hold, what am I missing?
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#3080133
09/23/22 09:30 PM
09/23/22 09:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
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I'm hearing more and more of this stuff. I'm beginning to wonder if the new brake drums are not as ridged as the old drums were. Maybe they cut back on the iron content or something and the new "modern" drums are flexing more then the OEM stuff did. If the drums are distorting when the brakes are applied, how would you expect the parking brake to function correctly?
I replaced the 9" drums on my Dakota chassis under my 49 truck, I bought the new drums of the "bay" place because they were the same brand (and part #) the local stores were selling at about 2x the price. One drum was warped, I had it turned .060 (max turn allowed) and its a lot closer to round then it used to be, but still not round. I'm not really expecting that to last long before the warp comes back. Its also kind of hard to not believe the other drum is really true.
When you put the brake shoes inside of the drum, they probably look great, but the top of the shoes are against an unmoving anchor post, and the bottom of the shoes are floating. How far out does the adjusted have to be turned before the bottom of the shoes are pushed against the drum before the top makes contact, as the wheel cylinder pushes the top of the shoe outward? The E brake generally pushes the top of the shoes outward off the anchor post until it either runs out of movement, or the shoes make contact to the drum, stepping firmly on the brake pedal before setting the e brake may help a bunch.
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Re: Parking brake won't hold, what am I missing?
[Re: poorboy]
#3080137
09/23/22 09:53 PM
09/23/22 09:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,233
fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,233
fredericksburg,va
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At that time they were emergency brakes, the shoes energize rolling forward because of their design (locks them tighter like every drum brake) reverse not to good. I’d advise taking drum off then look at the service manual picture then see if all the componites are on properly. If right the wheels-tires will drag ruts in dirt or gravel, because they were made to stop the truck when regular brakes failed, Ive had to do it a few times. BTW putting it in reverse will hold any truck I’ve ever had. If it’s rolling the brakes aren’t hold when you push the pedal either.
What I mean by energizing, as the brakes are applied they grab the drum which in turn tries to
rotate the shoes around, getting even tighter, works like a sprag in an auto trans.
Last edited by cudaman1969; 09/23/22 09:57 PM.
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Re: Parking brake won't hold, what am I missing?
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3080176
09/24/22 07:18 AM
09/24/22 07:18 AM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,777
ohio
ruderunner
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,777
ohio
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G, you're not going to like this but, I noticed the same difference between my 77 and my 92, both with 12x3 drums. I think it may be a leverage problem at the pedal, the 2 body styles have different pedal assemblies.
That said, the more I used the 77, the better the brakes held, this tells me it's a contact problem, at least part of it.
Couple of notes, new drums MUST BE ON THE HUBS AND TRUED. The factory did it this way to minimize runout of the assembly. Ditto for rotors. I have seen some pretty wobbly hubs and will true them up separately. This is why on car lathes were invented.
Getting to the contact problem, matching the arc was mentioned before and here's a little trick for checking it, find a socket that has an od that matches the od of the anchor pin on the backing plate. Assemble shoes, adjuster and socket into the drum and see if you have full 360 contact.
I did this on the 92 and the brakes are excellent. But it's the long distance tow vehicle so no cheating on it. The 77 is a plow truck junk hauler pos, I just keep clicking the adjustment up .
One other thing, half tons have a bellcrank on the frame that might be able to give more pedal leverage on the drum levers. Iirc, on half tons the cables are connected in a fashion that reduces leverage, should be no big deal to rearrange the cables to do the opposite.
Angry white pureblood male
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Re: Parking brake won't hold, what am I missing?
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3080177
09/24/22 07:22 AM
09/24/22 07:22 AM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,225
nowhere
Sniper
master
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master
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,225
nowhere
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they were made to stop the truck when regular brakes failed, . No, they were not. It's called a parking brake for a reason.
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Re: Parking brake won't hold, what am I missing?
[Re: ruderunner]
#3080181
09/24/22 07:55 AM
09/24/22 07:55 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,630
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,630
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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No sir, I don't like it. I'd rather put discs on it. Anybody need some all new 12x2.5 brakes? 
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon!
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: Parking brake won't hold, what am I missing?
[Re: Sniper]
#3080215
09/24/22 10:30 AM
09/24/22 10:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,233
fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,233
fredericksburg,va
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they were made to stop the truck when regular brakes failed, . No, they were not. It's called a parking brake for a reason. BS go get some reading material on brakes
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Re: Parking brake won't hold, what am I missing?
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3080225
09/24/22 11:04 AM
09/24/22 11:04 AM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,225
nowhere
Sniper
master
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master
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,225
nowhere
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they were made to stop the truck when regular brakes failed, . No, they were not. It's called a parking brake for a reason. BS go get some reading material on brakes I did, it's called the service manual. You show where is stated in either the FSM or the owner's manual that your statement is supported. Someone's BS website does not count.
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Re: Parking brake won't hold, what am I missing?
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3080229
09/24/22 11:09 AM
09/24/22 11:09 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,570
Sunny South Florida
Golden-Arm
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,570
Sunny South Florida
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find an empty parking lot and idle around with the brake applied. do it in reverse as well. you might find that by working through the outer layer on the pads, you'll get into some material that will bite. you have to heat, cool and bed service brakes when you change them. (with good pads, anyways) maybe your parking brake pad needs the same thing. alternatively (and harder) is remove the drum, and sand the face of the two pads to get rid of the smooth, shiny assembly line finish? i can lock-up my wheels on all of my rides, and do wicked brodies (if i wanna) with the parking brake. if you can't you haven't got the mating surfaces ready for each-other. last thing, take the parking pads out, and lay them inside the drum. do they make full contact across their entire wear surfaces? if not you have the wrong pads for the drums.
"When Tyranny Becomes Law, Rebellion Becomes Duty"
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Re: Parking brake won't hold, what am I missing?
[Re: stumpy]
#3080262
09/24/22 12:31 PM
09/24/22 12:31 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,225
nowhere
Sniper
master
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master
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,225
nowhere
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They were emergency brakes long before they started being called parking brakes. It is common knowlege that in a case of regular brake failure the hand brakes ( emergency brake) could be used. You really need to realize the FSM doesn't tell you everything. Look it up online a see a hundred of explantions of the reason for emergency brakes by some very reliable sources like OSHA etc.not BS websites.. Yes using it as a parking brake is recommended. Prove it. One link from an authoritative source. They were never emergency brakes, they were parking brakes because when they were designed cars didn't have a park function, they were manuals and without a parking brake the car would roll on an incline unless you left it in gear and sometimes it'd move anyway. That's also why you are supposed to crab your tires, or are you going to tell be they called it lobstering your tires before they ever called it crabbing.
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Re: Parking brake won't hold, what am I missing?
[Re: Sniper]
#3080263
09/24/22 01:04 PM
09/24/22 01:04 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,570
Sunny South Florida
Golden-Arm
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,570
Sunny South Florida
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They were emergency brakes long before they started being called parking brakes. It is common knowlege that in a case of regular brake failure the hand brakes ( emergency brake) could be used. You really need to realize the FSM doesn't tell you everything. Look it up online a see a hundred of explantions of the reason for emergency brakes by some very reliable sources like OSHA etc.not BS websites.. Yes using it as a parking brake is recommended. Prove it. One link from an authoritative source. They were never emergency brakes, they were parking brakes because when they were designed cars didn't have a park function, they were manuals and without a parking brake the car would roll on an incline unless you left it in gear and sometimes it'd move anyway. That's also why you are supposed to crab your tires, or are you going to tell be they called it lobstering your tires before they ever called it crabbing. not hard to prove at all. troll much? EMERGENCY BRAKE this was literally the first result from searching "emergency/parking brake in autos".
Last edited by Golden-Arm; 09/24/22 01:06 PM.
"When Tyranny Becomes Law, Rebellion Becomes Duty"
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Re: Parking brake won't hold, what am I missing?
[Re: Sniper]
#3080281
09/24/22 02:44 PM
09/24/22 02:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,233
fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,233
fredericksburg,va
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they were made to stop the truck when regular brakes failed, . No, they were not. It's called a parking brake for a reason. BS go get some reading material on brakes I did, it's called the service manual. You show where is stated in either the FSM or the owner's manual that your statement is supported. Someone's BS website does not count. As you should know SM are way off too. 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s go into ANY shop and ask what it was called or purpose. it was for emergency stopping in case the brakes FAILED, not sure of your age but most old timers know, Now after the dual master it MIGHT have started being called a “parking brake”. Have you ever had to drive with 4 pedals and one hand on release to get home? BUT WHO ever used it at all for ‘parking’. Maybe for the new cars but not back in the day.
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Re: Parking brake won't hold, what am I missing?
[Re: Golden-Arm]
#3080297
09/24/22 04:30 PM
09/24/22 04:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,130
A Red State
SNK-EYZ
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,130
A Red State
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They were emergency brakes long before they started being called parking brakes. It is common knowlege that in a case of regular brake failure the hand brakes ( emergency brake) could be used. You really need to realize the FSM doesn't tell you everything. Look it up online a see a hundred of explantions of the reason for emergency brakes by some very reliable sources like OSHA etc.not BS websites.. Yes using it as a parking brake is recommended. Prove it. One link from an authoritative source. They were never emergency brakes, they were parking brakes because when they were designed cars didn't have a park function, they were manuals and without a parking brake the car would roll on an incline unless you left it in gear and sometimes it'd move anyway. That's also why you are supposed to crab your tires, or are you going to tell be they called it lobstering your tires before they ever called it crabbing. not hard to prove at all. troll much? EMERGENCY BRAKE this was literally the first result from searching "emergency/parking brake in autos". There's no point in arguing with Sniper, I think that he's only here to argue and not really add any helpful information.  Most of his replies on here are only arguing but add nothing really useful to the discussion.
Kayse can't keep up at all now. lol
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Re: Parking brake won't hold, what am I missing?
[Re: Sniper]
#3080307
09/24/22 04:52 PM
09/24/22 04:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,499
N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,499
N.E. OHIO, USA
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They were emergency brakes long before they started being called parking brakes. It is common knowlege that in a case of regular brake failure the hand brakes ( emergency brake) could be used. You really need to realize the FSM doesn't tell you everything. Look it up online a see a hundred of explantions of the reason for emergency brakes by some very reliable sources like OSHA etc.not BS websites.. Yes using it as a parking brake is recommended. Prove it. One link from an authoritative source. They were never emergency brakes, they were parking brakes because when they were designed cars didn't have a park function, they were manuals and without a parking brake the car would roll on an incline unless you left it in gear and sometimes it'd move anyway. That's also why you are supposed to crab your tires, or are you going to tell be they called it lobstering your tires before they ever called it crabbing. Now that's a true statement that happened to me. Back in the day when I first started racing motorcycles I bought a '69 Ford Econoline van with a 3-speed manual on the column trans and a 300 inline six. I parked it in a friend's very steep Pittsburgh area driveway and was in the garage, door closed, with friends working on rating fork springs when we hear four or five cars honking their horns and they were not stopping. Opened the garge door and my van, that I had left in reverse, without the parking brake on, was now down the steep driveway blocking both lanes of the two lane street and only a few feet from heading down what was basically a cliff to nowhere. Got lucky that one it didn't hit anyone or a passing car and two that it stopped before it went over the cliff to nowhere, It may have creeped down the driveway bleeding off compression and that might have saved the day. From that point on I used the PARKING brake and even with an automatic, well most of the time with an auto trans but for sure ALWAYS with a manual trans always crabbed or turned the wheels to the curb or where it might go if it takes on a mind of its own Mike
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Re: Parking brake won't hold, what am I missing?
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3080332
09/24/22 07:46 PM
09/24/22 07:46 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,630
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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OP
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,630
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Geez guys, I didn't mean to start an argument I just want the parking brake to work. Is it a parking brake or an emergency brake? I don't care, technically it's a parking brake. Can it be used in an emergency? Absolutely. So can we leave it at that? Anyway here's an update. I got the rear wheels off the ground and attempted to seat the shoes somewhat. The service brakes work fine. So I tried setting the parking brake with the service brakes applied and that made a world of difference. So I figured I would go ahead and tighten up the service brake adjustment. Passenger side adjusted fine, drivers side had no clicking and I could back it off with no resistance. So I pulled that drum off and the cable came out of the saddle. The lever was sticky, fixed that and checked the contact area of shoe to drum. Not much at all. No contact in the center of the shoe and where it did contact at the top and bottom it was compromised by the surface preparation of the lining. You could see the machine finish and it wasn't smooth. So I got the adjuster problem fixed, adjusted the shoes again and everything seems to be working. Took the truck out to the big hill down the road to test it and it works fine if I apply the service brake firmly while setting the parking brake except on the steepest of incline going up hill. But there was still a good bit of drag. Before it would have been a freewheel. So as the shoes wear and seat to the drum I'm sure it will get better, but it's ok for now. Thank you to everyone that replied and offered ideas, I really appreciated it.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon!
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: Parking brake won't hold, what am I missing?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#3080357
09/24/22 09:02 PM
09/24/22 09:02 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,225
nowhere
Sniper
master
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master
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,225
nowhere
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So back in the days of a single master cylinder, if it leaked out on your car would you yank on that cable operated "parking brake" or say to yourself nope, that's the parking brake  I clearly stated is was DESIGNED as a parking brake. It was not designed to be an emergency brake, I did not say it hadn't been used as one but if you think the parking brake in the OP's 74 Crew cab truck was designed to be an emergency brake at full GVWR you are wrong. As for the Nationwide link, I said authoritative source, an insurance company post isn't. Here's paragraph 1. When should you use the emergency brake? New and experienced drivers often don’t know how the emergency brake works, or how and when to use it. Yet it can increase the safety of a vehicle, not to mention its engine life. Really? How? The article never tells you. I guess you could just apply the parking brake rather than downshift, saved on engine wear. Your "emergency brake" is the other circuit of a dual circuit master cylinder setup. If you've gotten to the point that only the parking brake remains as your sole means of stopping you deserve the tree you are about to eat.
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Re: Parking brake won't hold, what am I missing?
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#3080367
09/24/22 09:30 PM
09/24/22 09:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,311
Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,311
Omaha Ne
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Geez guys, I didn't mean to start an argument I just want the parking brake to work. Is it a parking brake or an emergency brake? I don't care, technically it's a parking brake. Can it be used in an emergency? Absolutely. So can we leave it at that?  Anyway here's an update. I got the rear wheels off the ground and attempted to seat the shoes somewhat. The service brakes work fine. So I tried setting the parking brake with the service brakes applied and that made a world of difference. So I figured I would go ahead and tighten up the service brake adjustment. Passenger side adjusted fine, drivers side had no clicking and I could back it off with no resistance. So I pulled that drum off and the cable came out of the saddle. The lever was sticky, fixed that and checked the contact area of shoe to drum. Not much at all. No contact in the center of the shoe and where it did contact at the top and bottom it was compromised by the surface preparation of the lining. You could see the machine finish and it wasn't smooth. So I got the adjuster problem fixed, adjusted the shoes again and everything seems to be working. Took the truck out to the big hill down the road to test it and it works fine if I apply the service brake firmly while setting the parking brake except on the steepest of incline going up hill. But there was still a good bit of drag. Before it would have been a freewheel. So as the shoes wear and seat to the drum I'm sure it will get better, but it's ok for now. Thank you to everyone that replied and offered ideas, I really appreciated it. thanks for the update. I d have one question, what do you mean by "service brake"  
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