Parking brake won't hold, what am I missing? *UPDATE*

Long story short, the parking brake didn't work when I got my '74 crew. Now in FL it wasn't a big deal, but I replaced the front cable, shoes and cylinders, I did not replace the drums, still didn't hold the truck. Everything works as it should and moves freely. So now I'm in the mountains and a parking brake is sorely needed as there isn't a level piece of ground to be found and some spots are pretty steep. So I replaced the drums, still won't hold the truck. Figured the shoes were cheap crap so I replaced them with Napa premium shoes, $80 worth. Now it is only slightly better if I really push the pedal through the firewall. Are the linings really that crappy any more? I haven't done much with drum brakes in the last decade or two. Do the shoes need to seated like some disc pads do?
I thought about converting to rear discs like I did my '92 but didn't want to spend that money on it right now. I might put a 1/4 turn ball valve in the front brake line like I did to the rears of the '92. That works well on that truck. Forgot, it's a full floating Dana 60 axle with 12 x 2-1/2 brakes.

It might sound like a silly question, but have you adjusted the parking brake cable adjuster????

Yes. The shoes expand against the drum and the pedal gets hard before the end of it's travel. It just doesn't stop the truck from rolling. Before replacing the shoes there was very little resistance, now it drags, but very slightly. Not enough to hold the truck.

Back in the day, we used to "arc" the shoes so they made full contact with the drums.
New shoes mostly just made contact at their leading & trailing edges unless that was done.
That said, you'd probably notice poor braking performance in general without full contact.
Other than that, the parking brake is pretty much just cable & hardware.

Yeah, but that was usually done after turning the drum. I thought of that, but with new shoes and new drums they should match, it looked ok when I set the shoes in the drum.
Honestly the brakes aren't all that and a bag of chips anyway, but they are not horrible. I may drive it awhile then get the rear wheels off the ground and see how well the service brakes hold it.

I wounder if the cable is possibly stretching?

I doubt that, Like I said the pedal gets really hard, you can't possibly get another click on it. The shoes are pressed as hard on the drum as it can be.

the bolded part of your statement may be worth considering. Also if you have rear contact issues it is unlikely you would notice it as most of the braking is down by the fronts.
Most 'parking brakes hold better going forward than back. Another thing I have found is that applying the brakes hard before setting the park brake will better align the shoes resulting in more holding/contact

one could aso inspect the shoes to verify the lining contact area

You do realize what a PITA it is to pull the drums off this don't you?

I've got the same problem with a Duster. Pull that handle as hard as you can and it still won't hold the car on an incline. The car stops fine other than that.

New cables, new brakes including new drums that came on a rear end I had built for it. It didn't have the e-brake arm on the shoes at first but I found a couple and installed them.

I dunno.

Dumb question but did you install the short shoes to the front of the backing plate and long to the rear?

Even dumber question, do you fully apply the service brake before trying to engage the parking brake lever?

Did you adjust the shoes?

Primary shoes on the front, secondary shoes on the rear, so yes.

Yes the brakes are properly adjusted. I replaced the self adjusters with the drums as some teeth were missing on one of the star wheels, they were probably original to the truck as I believe the drums may have been also.
I have not applied the service brake while setting the parking brake, I am going to try that though.

I guess I'm not the only one then. I'm going to try a few things, maybe tomorrow if I drive it, and it warms up a little.

the old parking brakes never worked very good,even when the vehicle was brand new.they always worker better in reverse,but not very good.

They are parking brakes, designed to hold the vehicle, not emergency brakes designed to be used when the vehicle is in motion.

I had a similar problem with my 91 W250.

Replaced the rear drums, shoes, etc., and the I could not get the parking brake to hold the truck. As I always considered the parking brake was an "emergency brake", my test was to drive the truck and while moving, pull the parking brake lever and hit the parking brake lever to see if the truck would stop in an emergency. It always worked before I replaced the factory original drums but not after I replaced the original drums with aftermarket drums.
While trying to adjust the parking in accordance with the FSM, I could feel and hear that the shoes were not in contact with the drum for a complete revolution. My conclusion was that the "new" drums were out of round and not machined correctly and probably should have been turned to make sure they were round. I got rid of the truck shortly after and did not get a chance to verify my theory. But if I had it to do over, I would have taken the new drums and had them chucked up in a brake lathe to make sure.

If the drums were out of round you would have felt that in the parking brake pedal during your test.

Find a nice steep hill.
Aplly the park brake going forward: establish effectiveness of the PB by itself.
Then, release the PB, apply the brakes hard before setting the park brake. Repeat test.
relese the PB again.
then Apply the parking brake and then hit the pedal hard repeat test.

Either should result in better contact but one may work better than the other. Testing on the same hill will identify if either method improves the effectiveness

might also try applying the parking brake for short periods while moving to help arc them to the drum. Do allow adequate cool down periods and obviously don't overheat them.

I'm hearing more and more of this stuff. I'm beginning to wonder if the new brake drums are not as ridged as the old drums were. Maybe they cut back on the iron content or something and the new "modern" drums are flexing more then the OEM stuff did. If the drums are distorting when the brakes are applied, how would you expect the parking brake to function correctly?

I replaced the 9" drums on my Dakota chassis under my 49 truck, I bought the new drums of the "bay" place because they were the same brand (and part #) the local stores were selling at about 2x the price. One drum was warped, I had it turned .060 (max turn allowed) and its a lot closer to round then it used to be, but still not round. I'm not really expecting that to last long before the warp comes back. Its also kind of hard to not believe the other drum is really true.

When you put the brake shoes inside of the drum, they probably look great, but the top of the shoes are against an unmoving anchor post, and the bottom of the shoes are floating. How far out does the adjusted have to be turned before the bottom of the shoes are pushed against the drum before the top makes contact, as the wheel cylinder pushes the top of the shoe outward? The E brake generally pushes the top of the shoes outward off the anchor post until it either runs out of movement, or the shoes make contact to the drum, stepping firmly on the brake pedal before setting the e brake may help a bunch.

At that time they were emergency brakes, the shoes energize rolling forward because of their design (locks them tighter like every drum brake) reverse not to good. I’d advise taking drum off then look at the service manual picture then see if all the componites are on properly. If right the wheels-tires will drag ruts in dirt or gravel, because they were made to stop the truck when regular brakes failed, Ive had to do it a few times. BTW putting it in reverse will hold any truck I’ve ever had. If it’s rolling the brakes aren’t hold when you push the pedal either.
What I mean by energizing, as the brakes are applied they grab the drum which in turn tries to
rotate the shoes around, getting even tighter, works like a sprag in an auto trans.

G, you're not going to like this but, I noticed the same difference between my 77 and my 92, both with 12x3 drums. I think it may be a leverage problem at the pedal, the 2 body styles have different pedal assemblies.

That said, the more I used the 77, the better the brakes held, this tells me it's a contact problem, at least part of it.

Couple of notes, new drums MUST BE ON THE HUBS AND TRUED. The factory did it this way to minimize runout of the assembly. Ditto for rotors. I have seen some pretty wobbly hubs and will true them up separately. This is why on car lathes were invented.

Getting to the contact problem, matching the arc was mentioned before and here's a little trick for checking it, find a socket that has an od that matches the od of the anchor pin on the backing plate. Assemble shoes, adjuster and socket into the drum and see if you have full 360 contact.

I did this on the 92 and the brakes are excellent. But it's the long distance tow vehicle so no cheating on it. The 77 is a plow truck junk hauler pos, I just keep clicking the adjustment up .

One other thing, half tons have a bellcrank on the frame that might be able to give more pedal leverage on the drum levers. Iirc, on half tons the cables are connected in a fashion that reduces leverage, should be no big deal to rearrange the cables to do the opposite.

No, they were not. It's called a parking brake for a reason.

No sir, I don't like it. I'd rather put discs on it. Anybody need some all new 12x2.5 brakes?

BS go get some reading material on brakes

I did, it's called the service manual. You show where is stated in either the FSM or the owner's manual that your statement is supported.

Someone's BS website does not count.

find an empty parking lot and idle around with the brake applied. do it in reverse as well. you might find that by working through the outer layer on the pads, you'll get into some material that will bite. you have to heat, cool and bed service brakes when you change them. (with good pads, anyways) maybe your parking brake pad needs the same thing. alternatively (and harder) is remove the drum, and sand the face of the two pads to get rid of the smooth, shiny assembly line finish? i can lock-up my wheels on all of my rides, and do wicked brodies (if i wanna) with the parking brake. if you can't you haven't got the mating surfaces ready for each-other. last thing, take the parking pads out, and lay them inside the drum. do they make full contact across their entire wear surfaces? if not you have the wrong pads for the drums.

They were emergency brakes long before they started being called parking brakes. It is common knowlege that in a case of regular brake failure the hand brakes ( emergency brake) could be used. You really need to realize the FSM doesn't tell you everything. Look it up online a see a hundred of explantions of the reason for emergency brakes by some very reliable sources like OSHA etc.not BS websites.. Yes using it as a parking brake is recommended.

Prove it. One link from an authoritative source. They were never emergency brakes, they were parking brakes because when they were designed cars didn't have a park function, they were manuals and without a parking brake the car would roll on an incline unless you left it in gear and sometimes it'd move anyway. That's also why you are supposed to crab your tires, or are you going to tell be they called it lobstering your tires before they ever called it crabbing.

not hard to prove at all. troll much? EMERGENCY BRAKE this was literally the first result from searching "emergency/parking brake in autos".

As you should know SM are way off too. 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s go into ANY shop and ask what it was called or purpose. it was for emergency stopping in case the brakes FAILED, not sure of your age but most old timers know, Now after the dual master it MIGHT have started being called a “parking brake”. Have you ever had to drive with 4 pedals and one hand on release to get home? BUT WHO ever used it at all for ‘parking’. Maybe for the new cars but not back in the day.

I had that experience with my 52 chevy that had a pull handle under the left side of the dash. It wasn't hard because you twisted the handle to allow it to move in and out to modulate the amount of brake. If you pulled it straight out it locked in place.

There's no point in arguing with Sniper, I think that he's only here to argue and not really add any helpful information.
Most of his replies on here are only arguing but add nothing really useful to the discussion.

Now that's a true statement that happened to me. Back in the day when I first started racing motorcycles I bought a '69 Ford Econoline van with a 3-speed manual on the column trans and a 300 inline six. I parked it in a friend's very steep Pittsburgh area driveway and was in the garage, door closed, with friends working on rating fork springs when we hear four or five cars honking their horns and they were not stopping. Opened the garge door and my van, that I had left in reverse, without the parking brake on, was now down the steep driveway blocking both lanes of the two lane street and only a few feet from heading down what was basically a cliff to nowhere. Got lucky that one it didn't hit anyone or a passing car and two that it stopped before it went over the cliff to nowhere, It may have creeped down the driveway bleeding off compression and that might have saved the day. From that point on I used the PARKING brake and even with an automatic, well most of the time with an auto trans but for sure ALWAYS with a manual trans always crabbed or turned the wheels to the curb or where it might go if it takes on a mind of its own

Mike

We’ll compromise and say it’s both, whatever you feel today

So back in the days of a single master cylinder, if it leaked out on your car would you yank on that cable operated "parking brake" or say to yourself nope, that's the parking brake

Geez guys, I didn't mean to start an argument I just want the parking brake to work. Is it a parking brake or an emergency brake? I don't care, technically it's a parking brake. Can it be used in an emergency? Absolutely. So can we leave it at that?

Anyway here's an update. I got the rear wheels off the ground and attempted to seat the shoes somewhat. The service brakes work fine. So I tried setting the parking brake with the service brakes applied and that made a world of difference. So I figured I would go ahead and tighten up the service brake adjustment. Passenger side adjusted fine, drivers side had no clicking and I could back it off with no resistance. So I pulled that drum off and the cable came out of the saddle. The lever was sticky, fixed that and checked the contact area of shoe to drum. Not much at all. No contact in the center of the shoe and where it did contact at the top and bottom it was compromised by the surface preparation of the lining. You could see the machine finish and it wasn't smooth. So I got the adjuster problem fixed, adjusted the shoes again and everything seems to be working. Took the truck out to the big hill down the road to test it and it works fine if I apply the service brake firmly while setting the parking brake except on the steepest of incline going up hill. But there was still a good bit of drag. Before it would have been a freewheel.
So as the shoes wear and seat to the drum I'm sure it will get better, but it's ok for now.
Thank you to everyone that replied and offered ideas, I really appreciated it.

I clearly stated is was DESIGNED as a parking brake. It was not designed to be an emergency brake, I did not say it hadn't been used as one but if you think the parking brake in the OP's 74 Crew cab truck was designed to be an emergency brake at full GVWR you are wrong.

As for the Nationwide link, I said authoritative source, an insurance company post isn't. Here's paragraph 1.



Really? How? The article never tells you. I guess you could just apply the parking brake rather than downshift, saved on engine wear.

Your "emergency brake" is the other circuit of a dual circuit master cylinder setup. If you've gotten to the point that only the parking brake remains as your sole means of stopping you deserve the tree you are about to eat.

thanks for the update. I d have one question, what do you mean by "service brake"

That's the big brake pedal.

I wonder why when you grab that handle on the floor console or between bucket seats and pull on it real hard and the car's rear wheels lock for a moment, then the car spins 180 degrees they call it an "E-brake turn".....................just saying Maybe before the 1966 Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) and the dual chamber master cylinders it was sometimes termed and actually used as an "emergency" brake/braking method but not today. A lot of this is now the Kleenex vs tissue, Xerox vs photo copy, "dialing" a phone number vs pushing buttons to call someone, and a hundred other "genericizations". At one time it was on some vehicles an "emergency" and parking brake but there ain't no way (yep ain't and a double negative ) that cable device is going to stop a vehicle, maybe it will slow it down like a fly on an elephants butt would create wind resistance

From Wiki and "Parking Brake" : The parking brake in most vehicles is still completely mechanical. Traditionally engaged by pulling a lever, the cables manually engage part of the car's braking system, usually the rear disk or drum brakes.[12] The mechanical nature allows the driver to apply the brake even if the main hydraulic brake system fails.[7] Good luck with that

I am not used to the term service brake either.

On a couple of the bigger trucks I have driven they had a brake button on the dash. I didn't drive a lot of bigger trucks so I am not sure what it was called but you set it when you parked.

While in high school I had a Mustang II. The pull handle between the seats identified as a drift enabling lever.

I also had a 66 Charger pop a wheel cylinder. While going down a slight incline the brake pedal decided to identify as an accelerator.

YES, happened on two separate vehicles, my 64 4 speed plymouth and a 62 dodge auto. Now both times I was going 30 mph and getting ready to make turn, both times the rear rubber line to axel broke. A little understanding here, with drums in the back the cable acts the same as pushing the brake pedal (it has a LONG arm for better leverage force). When disc brakes are used there’s a tiny set of shoes inside the disc, real good for holding a vehicle at rest, not to good for emergency situations. The mechanic next door just replaced the complete assembly on 2001 Dodge mini van where the guys daughter left the emergency brake on. Only one side was engaged, she said she had to keep the gas pedal flooded to get back home, NO CLUE what the problem was. Fried the drum, burnt the linings off the shoes, smoked the wheel cylinder and warped the backing plate. She did add it got easier to get up some speed after awhile (linings gone).
BUT even in the new cars your ‘parking brake’ WILL STOP YOUR CAR IN AN EMERGENCY.
One more thing, not sure of back in the day if the car companies were lawyered up like today for lawsuits but saying it’s a parking brake let’s them off the hook if said device were used in an ‘emergency’ situation that didn’t end well. It’s all about correct ‘wording’

I have never heard of a brake pedal being called a "service brake"

If you refer to my first two posts, using the "SERVICE BRAKE" in conjunction with the "PARKING/EMERGENCY brake" was one of the suggestions I made. Might not have worked so well with the detached cable But it is something I has done for years especially with a stick trans on a steep grade
Glad you got it sorted and thanks for the update

Way to go Guitar, start a huge fight on Moparts with riots likely to follow, and all over the parkmergency brake.

That's Emergencypark break (yeah "break" is deliberate )

Well I’ve heard some good arguments before but this one isn’t one of them. The hand brake/E brake park brake what ever you decide to call it of all of them the hand brake was the fist braking system used on a vehicle. When the hydraulic brakes came along the hand brake was left to use as an emergency brake if the hydraulic brakes failed.
https://www.wagnerbrake.com/technic...ance/all-about-your-emergency-brake.html

I wonder how many will read this?

I don't plan on it but "fist braking" sounds painful

Service brakes is the term the factory uses to describe the main braking system, in other words, the big brake pedal. Just funnin' with ya.
The cable that came off was for the self adjuster mechanism, had no effect on the operation of either (service or parking) brake operation.

I know right?

he's (maybe she's. or "it's") the same on every forum they post on. my post was to illustrate the fact, for the rest of the people in the thread, the facts on the emergency brake, as posted by an insurance company.

Yes, gloss right over the fact that your insurance company quote, lol, contains a glaring and factually incorrect claim that it reduces engine wear in the very first paragraph. You uncritically accept it because it supports your equally incorrect opinion of how the parking brake system functions.

And you obviously have no clue how an emergency system works.

Parking brake or emergency brake??? Me, I think parking brake because it always took the Lone Ranger and Tonto to stop this when it was a runaway, especially with all of that horsepower. That little hand parking brake was not going to do anything, and I never saw it stop it when I was a kid so I knew not to count on it when I got my Road Runner in 1969. back to:

Mike

Save the arguments for the important stuff, like proper pinion angle.

Yea what he said

“That little hand parking brake was not going to do anything, and I never saw it stop it when I was a kid so I knew not to count on it when I got my Road Runner in 1969.”

Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it. Believe me it works just fine

Easy fix... these.

If ya cant get your lady to put them in place train one of your doggies.

You are right, because they do not have one.

You ever wonder why the feds mandated a dual circuit hydraulic braking system?

Because the parking brake couldn't do the job. Half the hydraulic system still worked better than the parking brake.

Ever wonder why the owner's manual tells you to apply the service brakes before setting the parking brake? Because the parking brake cannot fully set the rear brakes all on it's own.

Just because you can hammer in a nail with Vice Grips doesn't make it a hammer.

Bet you use compression fittings on brake lines too.

The one thing I remember from High School is a teacher who explained to us that if you ever need to use the parking brake in an emergency to be sure to pull the handle or hold the button in so it doesn't lock. Unless you want to do a bootlegger's turn, then lock 'er up.

Sniper why are you arguing over the name. When brakes were single circuit it was considered an emergency brake. When brakes went to dual circuit it became a parking brake. Single circuit brakes were around for a long time and the emergency brakes saved as lot of people from crashing.

Right, it's really not a big deal on the name. Brakes changed over the years. I do know from my immature teen years the parking/emergency brake would definitely stop the car by locking the rear wheels Friends and I would have a little fun when our tires were getting old anyway.

Like I said you have no clue, I’ve never had a problem locking up the back brakes with an emergency brake and stopping the vehicle, just takes a man to do it, no wimps.

And before that it was a parking brake as most cars were stick shift and the early automatics didn't have a park feature, so there is that. People called them emergency brakes, but that was never their intended purpose. Show us in an owners manual or FSM where it is ever called anything other than a parking brake. Hell on our 2019 Ram you can't even apply that parking brake while the truck is in motion.

Funny thing.
The laws in IL require a modified or specially built vehicle to have functioning "Emergency brakes." Guess its a good thing that law isn't enforced very much. After that 1st inspection, they forget about it.

I've used the "hand" brake to stop a vehicle, more then once, after the regular brakes have failed. It wasn't fun, or a very fast stop, but it did work. One time was with a modern dual reservoir master cylinder. When a brake line, or brake hose fails, it will still empty the master cylinder with a couple pumps of the pedal. Many of the current plastic brake reservoirs do not have a separation between the two chambers, except possibly a small reserved area that can still empty. .

Calm down or Doc Fiberglass will be called
(3 times aloud while keeping eyes shut)
to moderate!

I have a one man, double pontoon white water inflatable boat,
whose official owners manual helpfully instructs that
“Fred Flintstone braking”
can be used for emergency slow downs.

You know you've lost the argument when you have to resort to crap like that for a response.

No I’ve never lost an argument, I go to many sources for the right info first. I’ve asked at least 5 car repair shops (at least 20 or more years in business), everyone said EMERGENCY brake, I grew up in 50s and 60s and worked at the Dodge repair shop it was referred to as an emergency brake and was referred from 1910 to my time as an emergency brake, and don’t give a rats ass about what any ‘book’ called it. It was called ‘parking brake’ for liability issues only. Can you understand why? How do I know this? I Do have some lawyers in the family. Worse than arguing with a women on here sometime, watch CNN much?

GEEZ! and it not even winter yet LOL
Not pimping my own post but this should be read by a few,
Refer to the following LINK and Think of the time all have lost on arguing a MOOT point. We are supposed to be here to help each other not revert to being grade schoolers. Time is the most precious asset we have in this life, and once spent cannot be recovered at any cost

LINKY

So True: 1 hand on wheel, other pulling brake release, left foot pumping emerg pedal.
Had to do that few times over the years.
It sure beats having to shift into Park.

For 16 years I lived out of town on a narrow gravel road. I bought a lot of beaters and parted them out and junked the remains. I can't count how many times I drove a vehicle up and down that road to check the condition of a trans or rear axle that only had a functioning E brake (or whatever you want to call it).

Those old Mopars with the E brake drum on the back end of the trans had great E brakes!

Its the drift brake nowadays

Alzheimer's is a [censored]

Now do vacuum advance!