Re: Lower control arm bushing
[Re: hemienvy]
#3068304
08/15/22 09:45 PM
08/15/22 09:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,411 Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,411
Omaha Ne
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Side loading the LCA bushing, OK I see that.
Our cars have, unfortunately, not the greatest front suspension geometry. The fulcrum axis of the strut rod is not co-linear with the the torsion bar axis, so the LCA bushing is going to be deformed anyway by the different arcs of movement of the LCA and the strut rod, moving up and down. Oh well. I doubt by much as the factory boys weren't stupid and the failure rate of the bushings would have made it apparent. However that is providing the LCA and Strut remain in a fixed position to each other as designed. When one starts playing with the length of the strut that goes in the sh-tter Bubba's ideas are not always good for the distance and many times lead to other problems. One would have to geometrically lay it out to see exactly how much movement was at the pivot point in the factory design. I strongly suspect the adjustable struts came into use as other mfr's did use the strut for adjustment BUT with a different LCA design and Bubba couldn't get his caster where he wanted so let's do what them people at Ford and GM did on SOME of their cars. Hey Leroy, go get a couple of cases of beer while I start hacking this idea out. Next thing one sees is they're being marketed as a solution. Remember Slick 50? MPG improvers, engine rebuild pellets for your oil burner? LOL Those and thousands of other products were all designed to get money form your pocket to theirs and some were quite successful LOL As far as the urethane goes, had them in my 68 Charger for 30 years without an issue. Other cars as well
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Re: Lower control arm bushing
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#3068330
08/15/22 10:41 PM
08/15/22 10:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,290 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,290
fredericksburg,va
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Hmmm, if putting ‘grease’ on the bushing what keeps the LCA from coming off? Or at the very least moving back and forth? There’s a reason the pin is so hard to get out when replacing. Torsion bar keeps the LCA in place.... The T-bar moves forward and back too, it doesn’t fit tight in the LCA
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Re: Lower control arm bushing
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#3068344
08/15/22 11:25 PM
08/15/22 11:25 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,096 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,096
Valencia, España
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This is for '70 E-body, I got the Energy Suspension front bushing kit 5.3112g
Is this how it goes together in the picture, grease everything up and push it all together ? I'm not missing any washers or anything am I ?
The outer shell is in the LCA and the inner shell is on the spindle. Your assy process is correct, however I recommend you purchase the front 2 pc strut rod poly package, the stock strut rod bushings in the K frame will splay the LCA's rearward when you start to mount everything up Agreed... BTDT RUBBER AND POLY PIECES CAN BE MIXED UP ANYWHERE BUT between those two mentioned as explained.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Lower control arm bushing
[Re: hemienvy]
#3068345
08/15/22 11:28 PM
08/15/22 11:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,096 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,096
Valencia, España
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DAYCLONA, I was leaning against doing those on the strut rod, but this is my first rodeo.
Are you saying the stock rubber bushings don't compress quite enough ? I see that the OE setup does not appear to have any length adjustability. It will compress too much. The poly bushings on LCA doesn't have the same friction than rubber, so LCA will be able to move in and out. The strut rod is not strong enough to absorb this move and will compres up to crack. BTDT
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Lower control arm bushing
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3068349
08/15/22 11:36 PM
08/15/22 11:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Hmmm, if putting ‘grease’ on the bushing what keeps the LCA from coming off? Or at the very least moving back and forth? There’s a reason the pin is so hard to get out when replacing. Torsion bar keeps the LCA in place.... The T-bar moves forward and back too, it doesn’t fit tight in the LCA You’re right, the T-bar is not a tight fit. But it doesn’t move. Mark and measure them at the rear. No movement for and aft. There’s ~1/4” of distance between T-bar rear end and the wire C-clip if you install the T-bar pushed forward. There’s a massive amount of pound per square inch on the hex edge contact points. I’ve been off course on the track and couple times and never a movement. Once I bent a rallye rim center section and bottomed a shock. Another time almost rolled it and went into infield desert 200ft or so sideways. All with poly LCA bushings.
Last edited by autoxcuda; 08/15/22 11:51 PM.
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Re: Lower control arm bushing
[Re: autoxcuda]
#3068393
08/16/22 08:57 AM
08/16/22 08:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,290 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,290
fredericksburg,va
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Hmmm, if putting ‘grease’ on the bushing what keeps the LCA from coming off? Or at the very least moving back and forth? There’s a reason the pin is so hard to get out when replacing. Torsion bar keeps the LCA in place.... The T-bar moves forward and back too, it doesn’t fit tight in the LCA You’re right, the T-bar is not a tight fit. But it doesn’t move. Mark and measure them at the rear. No movement for and aft. There’s ~1/4” of distance between T-bar rear end and the wire C-clip if you install the T-bar pushed forward. There’s a massive amount of pound per square inch on the hex edge contact points. I’ve been off course on the track and couple times and never a movement. Once I bent a rallye rim center section and bottomed a shock. Another time almost rolled it and went into infield desert 200ft or so sideways. All with poly LCA bushings. Yes a lot of pressure on the bar, but it could move. What I said was the LCA moves on the bar, as you said 1/4” lateral play. With that being said the strut acts as a pivot between tire and bushing with friction of tire pushing back and bushing moving forward, hard reverse will move it back. IF a loose movable type bushing is used
Last edited by cudaman1969; 08/16/22 08:59 AM.
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Re: Lower control arm bushing
[Re: TJP]
#3068418
08/16/22 10:30 AM
08/16/22 10:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908 Nebraska
4406bbl
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908
Nebraska
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I Side loading the LCA bushing, OK I see that.
Our cars have, unfortunately, not the greatest front suspension geometry. The fulcrum axis of the strut rod is not co-linear with the the torsion bar axis, so the LCA bushing is going to be deformed anyway by the different arcs of movement of the LCA and the strut rod, moving up and down. Oh well. I doubt by much as the factory boys weren't stupid and the failure rate of the bushings would have made it apparent. However that is providing the LCA and Strut remain in a fixed position to each other as designed. When one starts playing with the length of the strut that goes in the sh-tter Bubba's ideas are not always good for the distance and many times lead to other problems. One would have to geometrically lay it out to see exactly how much movement was at the pivot point in the factory design. I strongly suspect the adjustable struts came into use as other mfr's did use the strut for adjustment BUT with a different LCA design and Bubba couldn't get his caster where he wanted so let's do what them people at Ford and GM did on SOME of their cars. Hey Leroy, go get a couple of cases of beer while I start hacking this idea out. Next thing one sees is they're being marketed as a solution. Remember Slick 50? MPG improvers, engine rebuild pellets for your oil burner? LOL Those and thousands of other products were all designed to get money form your pocket to theirs and some were quite successful LOL As far as the urethane goes, had them in my 68 Charger for 30 years without an issue. Other cars as well Ya that is not quite the story on adjustable strut rods. They are designed to make up for the [censored], shoddy construction of the cars and especially the k-frames. What you do is put the car on a frame machine or alignment rack and square the frame, get the rear end in the car square, then get the left and right wheelbase the same. You would be amazed at how well these cars align after you do that. Ever measure a dozen mopar strut rods? They vary a lot. Anyway you can do this at home on a garage floor with plumb bobs, rear spring bracket shims, various strut rods and a little time. I set it axle center to lower ball joint center at ride height with just the lower arm in. Lower bushing style is not a big deal to me, but the urethane strut bushings will need that 3/16" removed from the back side to get the wheelbase right. If I remember right the moog improved strut bushings were also too thick. Adjustable struts are fantastic, your alignment guy can get it right real fast without bushing mods, restorations are a different animal, will need various strut rods or the ability to machine or shim them, but you can get it perfect. If you want a bunch of caster, and I would give it more with radials, use the problem solver upper bushings or adjustable upper arms.
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Re: Lower control arm bushing
[Re: 4406bbl]
#3068443
08/16/22 11:28 AM
08/16/22 11:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,411 Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,411
Omaha Ne
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I Side loading the LCA bushing, OK I see that.
Our cars have, unfortunately, not the greatest front suspension geometry. The fulcrum axis of the strut rod is not co-linear with the the torsion bar axis, so the LCA bushing is going to be deformed anyway by the different arcs of movement of the LCA and the strut rod, moving up and down. Oh well. I doubt by much as the factory boys weren't stupid and the failure rate of the bushings would have made it apparent. However that is providing the LCA and Strut remain in a fixed position to each other as designed. When one starts playing with the length of the strut that goes in the sh-tter Bubba's ideas are not always good for the distance and many times lead to other problems. One would have to geometrically lay it out to see exactly how much movement was at the pivot point in the factory design. I strongly suspect the adjustable struts came into use as other mfr's did use the strut for adjustment BUT with a different LCA design and Bubba couldn't get his caster where he wanted so let's do what them people at Ford and GM did on SOME of their cars. Hey Leroy, go get a couple of cases of beer while I start hacking this idea out. Next thing one sees is they're being marketed as a solution. Remember Slick 50? MPG improvers, engine rebuild pellets for your oil burner? LOL Those and thousands of other products were all designed to get money form your pocket to theirs and some were quite successful LOL As far as the urethane goes, had them in my 68 Charger for 30 years without an issue. Other cars as well Ya that is not quite the story on adjustable strut rods. They are designed to make up for the [censored], shoddy construction of the cars and especially the k-frames. What you do is put the car on a frame machine or alignment rack and square the frame, get the rear end in the car square, then get the left and right wheelbase the same. You would be amazed at how well these cars align after you do that. Ever measure a dozen mopar strut rods? They vary a lot. Anyway you can do this at home on a garage floor with plumb bobs, rear spring bracket shims, various strut rods and a little time. I set it axle center to lower ball joint center at ride height with just the lower arm in. Lower bushing style is not a big deal to me, but the urethane strut bushings will need that 3/16" removed from the back side to get the wheelbase right. If I remember right the moog improved strut bushings were also too thick. Adjustable struts are fantastic, your alignment guy can get it right real fast without bushing mods, restorations are a different animal, will need various strut rods or the ability to machine or shim them, but you can get it perfect. If you want a bunch of caster, and I would give it more with radials, use the problem solver upper bushings or adjustable upper arms. l'll not disagree on the first part of your commentary as I have NO experience with what you say but will 100% agree with the bolded part To me the adjustable struts are comparable to cutting coil springs to lower a car. IT does lower the car BUT screws up suspension geometry, travel and ride quality in the process. So Bubba accomplishes his goal while being UHH? (be nice) on the effects. If you have a sense of humor and the time, some other examples of his work can be found here BUBBA'S SHOP IDEAS AND FIXES LOL And yes, I have a lot more examples LOL
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Re: Lower control arm bushing
[Re: hemienvy]
#3068637
08/16/22 08:57 PM
08/16/22 08:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,290 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,290
fredericksburg,va
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Hope pics come out ok. Had vid of me working it up and down with one finger but can’t seem to find it
Last edited by cudaman1969; 08/16/22 08:58 PM.
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Re: Lower control arm bushing
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3068641
08/16/22 09:08 PM
08/16/22 09:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,290 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,290
fredericksburg,va
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Found it but wouldn’t load. Started out with the QA1 piece but it would bind on full travel, this for a race car with tires off ground (hopefully) street car wouldn’t need this setup (I would hope your street car don’t have tires in the air)
Last edited by cudaman1969; 08/16/22 09:12 PM.
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Re: Lower control arm bushing
[Re: 4406bbl]
#3068753
08/17/22 08:23 AM
08/17/22 08:23 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,100 Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,100
Rogue River, OR
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I Side loading the LCA bushing, OK I see that.
Our cars have, unfortunately, not the greatest front suspension geometry. The fulcrum axis of the strut rod is not co-linear with the the torsion bar axis, so the LCA bushing is going to be deformed anyway by the different arcs of movement of the LCA and the strut rod, moving up and down. Oh well. I doubt by much as the factory boys weren't stupid and the failure rate of the bushings would have made it apparent. However that is providing the LCA and Strut remain in a fixed position to each other as designed. When one starts playing with the length of the strut that goes in the sh-tter Bubba's ideas are not always good for the distance and many times lead to other problems. One would have to geometrically lay it out to see exactly how much movement was at the pivot point in the factory design. I strongly suspect the adjustable struts came into use as other mfr's did use the strut for adjustment BUT with a different LCA design and Bubba couldn't get his caster where he wanted so let's do what them people at Ford and GM did on SOME of their cars. Hey Leroy, go get a couple of cases of beer while I start hacking this idea out. Next thing one sees is they're being marketed as a solution. Remember Slick 50? MPG improvers, engine rebuild pellets for your oil burner? LOL Those and thousands of other products were all designed to get money form your pocket to theirs and some were quite successful LOL As far as the urethane goes, had them in my 68 Charger for 30 years without an issue. Other cars as well Ya that is not quite the story on adjustable strut rods. They are designed to make up for the [censored], shoddy construction of the cars and especially the k-frames. What you do is put the car on a frame machine or alignment rack and square the frame, get the rear end in the car square, then get the left and right wheelbase the same. You would be amazed at how well these cars align after you do that. Ever measure a dozen mopar strut rods? They vary a lot. Anyway you can do this at home on a garage floor with plumb bobs, rear spring bracket shims, various strut rods and a little time. I set it axle center to lower ball joint center at ride height with just the lower arm in. Lower bushing style is not a big deal to me, but the urethane strut bushings will need that 3/16" removed from the back side to get the wheelbase right. If I remember right the moog improved strut bushings were also too thick. Adjustable struts are fantastic, your alignment guy can get it right real fast without bushing mods, restorations are a different animal, will need various strut rods or the ability to machine or shim them, but you can get it perfect. If you want a bunch of caster, and I would give it more with radials, use the problem solver upper bushings or adjustable upper arms. This guy gets it. Another trick is cutting down the steel strut rod bushing. They are usually too long and get crushed on one end when the steel bushing binds up. On the subject of poly bushings I see two aspects not discussed. First is that oil and poly bushings do not mix. If you have a long standing engine oil leak it will kill the LCA bushings. Most of the cars I have seen with short poly bushing life were leakers. Do not use petroleum products on poly bushings. Summit and others sell a high viscosity silicone grease that is packed in a tube for your grease gun. I have had issues with aftermarket greasable LCA pins (QA1, Proforged, etc.) not registering correctly in the stock k frame. The profile of the aftermarket pins is different than the stock pieces. I end up cutting the profile back to 1.150" from the threaded end and tilt the cutter to give a .100 chamfer for a total of 1.250". I informed QA1 of this issue in 2013. That said, I think the poly bushings finally became viable on a street/low maintenance car when the greasable LCA pivots and UCA's with grease fittings on the bushing housing bore. Prior to that you had to r&r the LCA bushing if they started to squeak. Not the end of the world if you have the means, yet very annoying as a maintenance item.
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Re: Lower control arm bushing
[Re: TJP]
#3068873
08/17/22 01:36 PM
08/17/22 01:36 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,096 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,096
Valencia, España
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I'm wondering how many ppl actually use their cars as a drivers to really test all the parts. Anybody can say "I have a poly assembly since 20 years now and I haven't had any problem"... but, how many miles?
In my experience, is just about match correctly the parts to guarantee the effectiveness on the assembly.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Lower control arm bushing
[Re: NachoRT74]
#3068877
08/17/22 02:00 PM
08/17/22 02:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908 Nebraska
4406bbl
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908
Nebraska
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I'm wondering how many ppl actually use their cars as a drivers to really test all the parts. Anybody can say "I have a poly assembly since 20 years now and I haven't had any problem"... but, how many miles?
In my experience, is just about match correctly the parts to guarantee the effectiveness on the assembly. This is it exactly, they putt-putt around to car shows. I hate urethane and poly end link bushings, always deformed and wiped out, and will be switching the front and rear bar to the Ford expedition style ball joint end links. I figure it will break the rear spring sway bar plates but I will gusset them. Stock lower bushings and moog problem solver uppers have served me well. End link bushings not so much.
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