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Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: Mr PotatoHead] #3018740
02/25/22 09:48 AM
02/25/22 09:48 AM
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Findlay
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Ramman Offline
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My take. Don't run it anymore until you can make pressure with the priming shaft.
1. Reassemble that pump. Checking to insure the relief valve slides smoothly.
2. Replace oil filter and add a quart of oil.
3. Try to prime it with the priming shaft.
4. If good pressure, rotate engine slowly while continuing to prime.
5. If still no pressure, add 2 more quarts of oil and retry. You're testing the oil pump pick-up crack theory.
6. If it builds good pressure, YOU"VE FOUND IT! Pull pan. See what hit the pick up and repair. Check a few rod and main bearings while you're in there.
7. If still no pressure, pull intake manifold and valley pan and look for displaced lifter.

Last edited by Ramman; 02/25/22 09:49 AM.
Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: Mr PotatoHead] #3018743
02/25/22 09:51 AM
02/25/22 09:51 AM
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St.Pete,Florida
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Pull the pan and check for cracked or broken pickup. That pickup may be living in a different space right now. I've been there. It could also be the root of that obstruction or metallic noise you speak of. Others here have suggested that also. These pickups will crack in the pipethreads, especially if they are long, reused a few times, overtightened, or the pan bottoming out on the road/track surface.If the oil was highly contaminated with gas, as you report, it would probably be much harder to reprime after a period of shutdown. I had an old big block Dart race car. I bottomed it out on a deep Milodon oil pan. It didn't look bad but after I pulled the pan the pickup FELL OFF when I bumped it with my hand. Lucky I shut it off early. It didn't hurt the crank or bearings. You're lower end has been "gas washed" and won't prime. I suggest you don't keep trying to rotate it over. Nothing good will come of it. Good luck here. Bill

Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: lancer493] #3018757
02/25/22 10:25 AM
02/25/22 10:25 AM
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You say the engine takes effort to turn over , pull all the plugs and spin the engine over by hand , if it's still a struggle then you have an issue somewhere inside. As far as the pump goes, the oil enters the pump then goes to the filter so anything that makes it past the pickup screen goes thru the pump before it gets trapped in the filter.

If it was my engine I'd be pulling the pan and looking inside instead of ignoring the stuck float issue that dumped more than normal amount of fuel into the cylinders. To pull the pan you need to pull out the center link , unbolt the motor mounts and raise the front of the engine a small amount to get the pan out .

Last edited by JohnRR; 02/25/22 10:26 AM.

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Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: fal3] #3018786
02/25/22 11:49 AM
02/25/22 11:49 AM
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Pasadena, Texas
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There are grooves inside the pump where the relief spring plunger goes; cell phone camera didn't quite capture the image I wanted. When I first started this process to rotate engine, plugs were pulled and carb blocked @ WoT, but still tough to turn. This was the first filter. What I mean by that is oil pan full of gas, so I did an oil change with fresh filter (I use WIX 51515).
New pump for sure. What I'm gonna do is this. The Rodeo is in town, and as usual, they brought the cold, rainy weather with them. Will be warm and sunny next week. I'm persuaded to pull the oil pan, and as recommended, check crank and rods for looseness, check the oil pick-up tube. When engine rebuilt in '97, I had machinist modify block to use a hemi 1/2" pick-up tube. I'm using a windage tray. Don't know if this is useful info.
Right now, pessimistically, I think I'm looking at a short block rebuild. But, you guys have given me areas to work on that I did not realize that show some hope.
If all is well with crank, rods, and pick-up, as recommended, I'll put engine together and see what happens.
Alrighty, well the fun begins on Monday. Enjoy your weekend.

Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: fal3] #3019421
02/27/22 02:01 PM
02/27/22 02:01 PM
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What weight of oil are you using ? ?

Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: fal3] #3019626
02/28/22 10:36 AM
02/28/22 10:36 AM
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Pasadena, Texas
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fal3 Offline OP
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Pulled oil pan and this is what I found. Image of oil pan interior is how I found it when pan was dropped. Have no idea where the spring came from. #6 & #8 connecting rods are loose; can move them with fingers. Any idea what is with orangish color on rods?

20220227_150034.jpg20220227_150011.jpg20220227_145947.jpg
Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: fal3] #3019628
02/28/22 10:42 AM
02/28/22 10:42 AM
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Pasadena, Texas
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fal3 Offline OP
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Use Quaker State 10w 40. I think engine is terminal and looking at a rebuild. As someone posted, crank and rods got washed in gas and if I understand correctly, this means that they are trashed. You think crank is salvageable? It's a forged factory crank. Grasping at straws here.
Thanks everyone for providing constructive suggestions on my engine situation.

Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: fal3] #3019631
02/28/22 10:46 AM
02/28/22 10:46 AM
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Colleyville
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Looks like an oil pump pressure relief spring? shruggy


'68 Fury Convertible
'69 300 Convertible
'15 Durango 5.7 Hemi
'16 300 S Hemi
Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: 3hundred] #3019638
02/28/22 11:07 AM
02/28/22 11:07 AM
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How big is that spring? Carter style metering rod spring? Looks pretty good for a trip down the motor.


I want my fair share
Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: fal3] #3019653
02/28/22 11:57 AM
02/28/22 11:57 AM
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Pull your fuel pump. Pictures are hard to tell but it could be off the fuel pump. Pull the motor and get it evaluated.

Last edited by NITROUSN; 02/28/22 11:59 AM.
Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: fal3] #3019654
02/28/22 12:02 PM
02/28/22 12:02 PM
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I've seen rods discolor when the bearing went bad.

Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: NITROUSN] #3019662
02/28/22 12:13 PM
02/28/22 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by NITROUSN
Pull your fuel pump. Pictures are hard to tell but it could be off the fuel pump. Pull the motor and get it evaluated.

I AGREE smile Or one from another pump along the way.
Are the other chunks metallic?
Side to side movement on the rods is normal to a point. Can't remember the specs but they're in the books. Up and down movement pity
I would proceed with pulling a few bearing caps before giving the motor it's last rites beer

Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: TJP] #3019666
02/28/22 12:19 PM
02/28/22 12:19 PM
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That rod is copper dipped, when a rod could not be sized to specs when new at the factory those rods went through a copper dip process to fill in the defects then were remachined. As far as the engine goes pull it before you have nothing left, if it turns over hard it is done.

Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: 4406bbl] #3019766
02/28/22 05:12 PM
02/28/22 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 4406bbl
That rod is copper dipped, when a rod could not be sized to specs when new at the factory those rods went through a copper dip process to fill in the defects then were remachined. As far as the engine goes pull it before you have nothing left, if it turns over hard it is done.



iagree


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Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: fal3] #3019786
02/28/22 06:17 PM
02/28/22 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by fal3
Have no idea where the spring came from. #6 & #8 connecting rods are loose; can move them with fingers. Any idea what is with orangish color on rods?


Looks like a handy spare oil pressure relief spring in there. Hell of a place to store it.

Rods are loose? Side to side or up and down? Side to side is normal.
The orange color is copper plating which Chrysler did to salvage otherwise out of spec rods. They didn't like wasting parts.


Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: fal3] #3019836
02/28/22 09:55 PM
02/28/22 09:55 PM
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Pasadena, Texas
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The rod motion is side to side, but it is a lot. The other rods have no wiggle at all. I'm not a big guy, and I was feeling uncomfortable about how much oomph I had to use to turn the crank, so I stopped. The spring is a mystery. About 3 years ago, my oil pan gaskets got weepy because I torqued them crushed. While I had pan off, I checked rods and crank-all was well, tight. OCD about cleaning the pan. Just can't imagine how it got in there. Like the idea of pulling fuel pump to see if it grenaded. That spring does like similar to the one in a fuel pump. Put a new fuel pump a month or so ago which began this debacle. Thanks, again

Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: 3hundred] #3019841
02/28/22 10:01 PM
02/28/22 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 3hundred
Looks like an oil pump pressure relief spring? shruggy
iagree
There is no way for that spring to get into the oil pan from the pump on any Mopar BB or gen 2 hemi, NO WAY shruggy
Someone drop that into the motor from the top or it got left in the motor somehow when it was being assembled.
Do the loose rods push up and down or only sideways luck? If only sideways your probably okay
If up and down start taking the motor apart starting with those two rod caps to make sure it is not just a set of bad rod bearings scored up. scope twocents
Mopar would copper coat rebuilt rods or rods that had to be work on to meet their minimum specs for production engine use rant shruggy
I've seen a ton of them over the years.


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: Cab_Burge] #3019843
02/28/22 10:06 PM
02/28/22 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Originally Posted by 3hundred
Looks like an oil pump pressure relief spring? shruggy


iagree
There is no way for that spring to get into the oil pan from the pump on any Mopar BB or gen 2 hemi, NO WAY shruggy


That's what had me so puzzled, HTF did that get there.


'68 Fury Convertible
'69 300 Convertible
'15 Durango 5.7 Hemi
'16 300 S Hemi
Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: 3hundred] #3019886
03/01/22 08:15 AM
03/01/22 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by 3hundred
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Originally Posted by 3hundred
Looks like an oil pump pressure relief spring? shruggy


iagree
There is no way for that spring to get into the oil pan from the pump on any Mopar BB or gen 2 hemi, NO WAY shruggy


That's what had me so puzzled, HTF did that get there.


Years ago, I was swapping out a 225 for a 360 in my 72 Dart. I bought a running 79 Doda that had been hit in the left rear hard enough to S shape the leaf spring. Once I got it out of the Cordoba I put it on an engine stand and pulled the pan to look at the bearings. Based on the date codes and other pointers I was pretty sure no one had ever been in there before.

I found a nut in the crankcase. Specifically a con rod nut. That engine had 17 con rods nuts inside it, 16 installed, one loose. I can only assume that during the build someone dropped a con rod nut and just grabbed another rather than find the loose one.

Re: 440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized [Re: Sniper] #3019896
03/01/22 09:35 AM
03/01/22 09:35 AM
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Finding loose items in the pan doesn't necessarily mean they did any damage. If the spring has no evidence of damage then there is like no damage elsewhere.

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