440 oil priming mystery or is my engine seized

Tried to make this as brief as possible. Was fine tuning on carb, all is well. Go for a drive engine starts running rough, no power. Get it in driveway, have blue smoke pouring out of exhaust, engine running like several cylinders down, engine stalls abruptly before I get to turn it off. Try to refire engine, but starter couldn't spin engine fast enough for it to start, kinda like a dead battery. After several attempts, got engine started and see gas pouring out of carb-float stuck open I discover later. Engine cuts off abruptly, again, before I can turn it off. Check oil level and smell nothing but gas. There is gas on dipstick and thin film of oil. Panic kicks in; thinking I locked engine up. Drain oil pan; fresh oil, filter. All plugs removed; carb blocked at WoT. Tried to turn engine by hand but it was a challenge. Here's a description of the plugs. Cylinders 1 & 3 dark, sooty, black carbon. Cylinders # 2 & 4 electrode partially black. Cylinders # 5,7,6, 8 plugs were clean like not firing (almost like out of the box). I know this is something significant, but I lack the expertise to draw a conclusion.

So, I go get my priming rod, and prime engine. Remove driver side valve cover to see if top of engine getting oil. Drill got oil pressure up to 45 psi (mechanical guage) and needle slowly fell to 0. I'm getting happy. I go between priming engine and turning it by hand, checking OP guage, and it gets easier to turn motor; oil is being pushed up to valve train. I'm thinking I'm on the right track. So, I think before I fire it up, I need to prime engine and turn it by hand simultaneously. Ask son to help and two days later he is with me to repeat the above process- he primes, I turn engine by hand. This time no oil pressure at all reading on gauge. But I decide to push on with my plan (this is where I might've fk'd up). Engine turned just like previous attempt except not seeing oil coming up to valve springs. Oil pressure guage still not registering, but my son notes that needle was twitching off of 0 but not rising.
What happened? I'm starting to think a cam bearing spun blocking oil passage(?). IDK. If more info needed, let me know

Yes & yes.

Drill was used; went CCW.

Spun cam bearing wouldn't affect the oil pressure gauge

Are you sure the priming rod engaged the pump? You may not get oil to the top end but you should definitely have some pressure. A needle bouncing off zero could be the priming rod slipping in the rotor - its catching just enough to slightly spin the rotor just enough to bounce the needle.

Did the drill motor labor when trying to get oil pressure ?

If so, pull the relief valve and make sure it’s not stuck in bypass.

counter clockwise to get oil psi in a 440 !

See the third post in this thread

Which type and size motor and how old was the gas in the tank?

prime with the dampener at #6 and #8 TDC compression to preoil each head

Pack the oil pump with light grease

Cab- engine 440; gas is fresh b/c installed new fuel pump about 3 wks back.
Drill did not labor; I forgot about that point. Significance of this action?
I'll pull oil pump and check relief valve.
Will follow #6 & 8 primed at TDC.
Curious about packing oil pump with grease. How does this help? Not being a dick, but want to add to knowledge base.

If drill motor did not labor you either have a cracked oil pickup (doubtful at this point based on the engine having pressure recently), plugged oil pickup (again doubtful at this point), relief valve stuck wide open dumping pressure which reduces drag on drill motor, or large leak inside engine. Engine has been running so maybe you blew a lifter out of it’s bore (a cylinder without working valves/s will cause more drag to turn over by hand or starter).

Packing the oil pump is not needed, you had oil pressure recently. A full oil filter and oil in the pump is all you need to get pressure.

When you drained it how much fluid came out ?

If the drill is not "laboring" it is because the pump is not building pressure which requires more torque/effort from the drill.

Packing the pump with grease fills the clearances inside the pump so it is more prone to pull (suck) the oil up in the pan.

I agree on the fact that it has already primed so this is more than 98% likely to have you chasing your tail.

The relief valve is a possibility and easily removed with out even pulling the pump.

I also agree with pulling the valve covers to verify all the lifters are still in place.

Float sticks open and fuel pours into the motor. Too much fuel and a cylinder stops firing. Fuel fills the cylinder and "hydraulics" preventing valves from opening and subsequently bends a pushrod or two. Engine starts and tosses those lifters out of their bores. Now you have no oil pressure and no resistance in the pump.

Pull the valve covers before you crawl under to check the relief valve.

JohnRR- about 5-6 qts in the oil catch pan used for oil changes.
Did not think of bent pushrods or jumped lifters. I only had d-side valve cover off to find TDC; I'll remove p-side and take a peek. Thanks for the info on why use packed grease; fluid hydraulics.

Been there, done that with a broken valve spring letting the roller lifter pop out around 5600 RPM in high gear on a 1/4-mile pass: whiney:

As recommended, I checked push rods and lifter placement; all is well. Put the valve train back together, and decide, let me try and prime the engine, again. As Dirty Harry would say "Are you feeling lucky?". Set-up all the equipment, and bam, oil pressure builds up. I'm thinking the car hates me. Why is pressure building-up? But, it was a short lived victory.
I decide, let me take advantage of the situation and turn the engine over. So I prime and turn; oil pressure still registers. It was hard at first, got a little easy, but still had to put some ass behind it. Valves are moving up/down; they're getting oil. As I'm rotating the engine, I hear what I think is a death knell. At the point where the head meets the manifold, deep in the block at cylinders #6 & #8, I hear an audible metal snick 180 degrees apart.
What's the bad news? Opinions, please. I think a tear-down is definitely in the plans.

Go to the nearest Catholic Church and get some Holy Water. Sprinkle some on you and some on the engine.
Let us know how it goes. We will pray for you.

Two things i would do before going forward on finding out what is wrong is to remove and cut the oil filter apart and see if there are metal filings in the pleats or not. I cut the metal cover off up near the top and then use my pocketknife to cut the pleats all the way around the filter at the top and bottom and cut one pleat lengthwise to peal and remove the rest of the element from the center and spread it apart and look in the joints of the pleats
If there are metal shavings or chunks in the bottoms of the pleats If so please post pictures of what you see.
If no metal in the filter remove the oil pump with the filter off and remove and look at the bypass valve to see if it has junk in it or has marks on it from debris possibly making it stick partially open making no oil pressure
Let us know what you find from that please before doing anything else

He should do that with the filter he just removed.

Transman, TJP- ironically I am Catholic. Father, about that exorcism Mass..
Cab- made some notes and will follow through with recommendations. Will post findings.

Me too.

On a serious note, I was not making fun of your predicament. It’s a phrase we use a lot around here

That metallic noise, could be a lot of things. Might want to try the old metal rod held to your ear trick.
Place it at different points around the engine and see where it is the strongest.

Try rocking the crank back and forth when you hear it, see if it’s slop in the rotating assembly, etc.

At this point with all the fuel you had in the oil, it’s probably a good idea to pull the pan.
Check the rod bearings, look up at the bores. Checking the filter isn’t going to be conclusive, you could have wounded the bearings bad enough yet not put any metal in the filter.

As am I. Do keep us posted

Engine oiling issues and religion…..they always get tangled up.

Have images to view for you. Took filter apart; pleats with heavy line faced to outside of filter. The relief spring area image didn't get what I exactly wanted. Was trying to show grooves deep inside just before relief. Plunger for relief spring was taken @ 90* intervals.

More

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Transman- we're good.
Pacnorthcuda- you'd think I'd learn that the first time!
Hope images will help with further diagnosis. Guys-thanks for the input and taking time to help get the old iron on the road.
I did not see any metal chunks/shavings in filter pleats or oil pump. Good sign?

The pan needs to come off or the engine pulled. That pump had a ton of shrapnel pulled into it. Most likely will need a complete tear down, evaluation and rebuild.

The filter looks good
The bypass valve doesn't: down:
Take a good close look in the oil pump top in the bypass valve chamber and see if it is damaged or not, look for grooves or scratches matching the marks on the bypass vale or any tiny debris inside it or in the removable plug
I'm sure the bypass valve stuck open causing the no or very low oil pressure
I've had that happen more than once when a part failed like a valve spring breaking or another small piece got caught in between the valve and oil pump top chamber I cleaned and polish the valve and made sure it would slide in and out of the chamber dry and reused them after wards with no more problems in both stock pumps and a Mildon aluminum pump cover
As far as checking the motor for rod bearing damage you can take all the spark plugs out and try rotating the motor both ways for several revolutions both ways and see if you can feel any differences when reversing directions or not
if you can feel a difference take the motor apart.
If you can't feel anything, put everything back together and prime it with the plugs out and spin it over on the starter watching the oil pressure before running it again

The lack of debris in the filter is a good sign. The pump has seen better days - some crap has go through there at some point. The fact the pump cover isn't scored is a good sign. For the cost I wouldn't dick around with that pump, I'd just put a new one on.

Once you clean the pump and internals check and see if the relief valve will fall out of its bore from It’s own weight.

If it does, as a trial you can assemble the pump and reinstall and see if you get pressures. I have seen much worse pump rotors and valve function just fine.
I would check rotor face clearance while you have it apart - I think max is .004” across the top of the rotors to the body.

As for trying to determine the internal condition of the engine, especially the bearings you will be well served by just pulling the pan.
The old saying - “motors run the fastest just before they blow up” could apply here.

You still have to find the source of that clicking. And if those are bubbles in the filter, it looks like you are sucking air. Not sure if s stuck relief valve would do that.

You did get some short lived oil pressure, and then it went away. I wonder, if you had a crack in your pick up, where the crack is submerged in oil initially. As you prime the engine, the oil level goes down below the crack, and then you're sucking air?
Transman, I like the point about the bubbles in the oil filter....

I've had pumps worse than that provide plenty of pressure as long as the relief wasn't stuck. Not that it looks great. Is that the 1st filter or the second?
Doug

I agree with the pump , I'll even say that the relief is ok. But I bet the clicking is the bottom end contacting the pickup and now it has either cracked or worn through.

Im goona jump on the ejected lifter idea, just too much like an issue I chased when younger and got to the lockup stage after running as described and trying about 46 fixes with zero luck.

Good luck though!

My take. Don't run it anymore until you can make pressure with the priming shaft.
1. Reassemble that pump. Checking to insure the relief valve slides smoothly.
2. Replace oil filter and add a quart of oil.
3. Try to prime it with the priming shaft.
4. If good pressure, rotate engine slowly while continuing to prime.
5. If still no pressure, add 2 more quarts of oil and retry. You're testing the oil pump pick-up crack theory.
6. If it builds good pressure, YOU"VE FOUND IT! Pull pan. See what hit the pick up and repair. Check a few rod and main bearings while you're in there.
7. If still no pressure, pull intake manifold and valley pan and look for displaced lifter.

Pull the pan and check for cracked or broken pickup. That pickup may be living in a different space right now. I've been there. It could also be the root of that obstruction or metallic noise you speak of. Others here have suggested that also. These pickups will crack in the pipethreads, especially if they are long, reused a few times, overtightened, or the pan bottoming out on the road/track surface.If the oil was highly contaminated with gas, as you report, it would probably be much harder to reprime after a period of shutdown. I had an old big block Dart race car. I bottomed it out on a deep Milodon oil pan. It didn't look bad but after I pulled the pan the pickup FELL OFF when I bumped it with my hand. Lucky I shut it off early. It didn't hurt the crank or bearings. You're lower end has been "gas washed" and won't prime. I suggest you don't keep trying to rotate it over. Nothing good will come of it. Good luck here. Bill

You say the engine takes effort to turn over , pull all the plugs and spin the engine over by hand , if it's still a struggle then you have an issue somewhere inside. As far as the pump goes, the oil enters the pump then goes to the filter so anything that makes it past the pickup screen goes thru the pump before it gets trapped in the filter.

If it was my engine I'd be pulling the pan and looking inside instead of ignoring the stuck float issue that dumped more than normal amount of fuel into the cylinders. To pull the pan you need to pull out the center link , unbolt the motor mounts and raise the front of the engine a small amount to get the pan out .

There are grooves inside the pump where the relief spring plunger goes; cell phone camera didn't quite capture the image I wanted. When I first started this process to rotate engine, plugs were pulled and carb blocked @ WoT, but still tough to turn. This was the first filter. What I mean by that is oil pan full of gas, so I did an oil change with fresh filter (I use WIX 51515).
New pump for sure. What I'm gonna do is this. The Rodeo is in town, and as usual, they brought the cold, rainy weather with them. Will be warm and sunny next week. I'm persuaded to pull the oil pan, and as recommended, check crank and rods for looseness, check the oil pick-up tube. When engine rebuilt in '97, I had machinist modify block to use a hemi 1/2" pick-up tube. I'm using a windage tray. Don't know if this is useful info.
Right now, pessimistically, I think I'm looking at a short block rebuild. But, you guys have given me areas to work on that I did not realize that show some hope.
If all is well with crank, rods, and pick-up, as recommended, I'll put engine together and see what happens.
Alrighty, well the fun begins on Monday. Enjoy your weekend.

What weight of oil are you using ? ?

Pulled oil pan and this is what I found. Image of oil pan interior is how I found it when pan was dropped. Have no idea where the spring came from. #6 & #8 connecting rods are loose; can move them with fingers. Any idea what is with orangish color on rods?

Use Quaker State 10w 40. I think engine is terminal and looking at a rebuild. As someone posted, crank and rods got washed in gas and if I understand correctly, this means that they are trashed. You think crank is salvageable? It's a forged factory crank. Grasping at straws here.
Thanks everyone for providing constructive suggestions on my engine situation.

Looks like an oil pump pressure relief spring?

How big is that spring? Carter style metering rod spring? Looks pretty good for a trip down the motor.

Pull your fuel pump. Pictures are hard to tell but it could be off the fuel pump. Pull the motor and get it evaluated.

I've seen rods discolor when the bearing went bad.

I AGREE Or one from another pump along the way.
Are the other chunks metallic?
Side to side movement on the rods is normal to a point. Can't remember the specs but they're in the books. Up and down movement
I would proceed with pulling a few bearing caps before giving the motor it's last rites

That rod is copper dipped, when a rod could not be sized to specs when new at the factory those rods went through a copper dip process to fill in the defects then were remachined. As far as the engine goes pull it before you have nothing left, if it turns over hard it is done.

Looks like a handy spare oil pressure relief spring in there. Hell of a place to store it.

Rods are loose? Side to side or up and down? Side to side is normal.
The orange color is copper plating which Chrysler did to salvage otherwise out of spec rods. They didn't like wasting parts.

The rod motion is side to side, but it is a lot. The other rods have no wiggle at all. I'm not a big guy, and I was feeling uncomfortable about how much oomph I had to use to turn the crank, so I stopped. The spring is a mystery. About 3 years ago, my oil pan gaskets got weepy because I torqued them crushed. While I had pan off, I checked rods and crank-all was well, tight. OCD about cleaning the pan. Just can't imagine how it got in there. Like the idea of pulling fuel pump to see if it grenaded. That spring does like similar to the one in a fuel pump. Put a new fuel pump a month or so ago which began this debacle. Thanks, again

There is no way for that spring to get into the oil pan from the pump on any Mopar BB or gen 2 hemi, NO WAY
Someone drop that into the motor from the top or it got left in the motor somehow when it was being assembled.
Do the loose rods push up and down or only sideways ? If only sideways your probably okay
If up and down start taking the motor apart starting with those two rod caps to make sure it is not just a set of bad rod bearings scored up.
Mopar would copper coat rebuilt rods or rods that had to be work on to meet their minimum specs for production engine use
I've seen a ton of them over the years.

That's what had me so puzzled, HTF did that get there.

Years ago, I was swapping out a 225 for a 360 in my 72 Dart. I bought a running 79 Doda that had been hit in the left rear hard enough to S shape the leaf spring. Once I got it out of the Cordoba I put it on an engine stand and pulled the pan to look at the bearings. Based on the date codes and other pointers I was pretty sure no one had ever been in there before.

I found a nut in the crankcase. Specifically a con rod nut. That engine had 17 con rods nuts inside it, 16 installed, one loose. I can only assume that during the build someone dropped a con rod nut and just grabbed another rather than find the loose one.

Finding loose items in the pan doesn't necessarily mean they did any damage. If the spring has no evidence of damage then there is like no damage elsewhere.

My father work at a Ford dealer, he would find half eaten sandwiches inside doors. Had one car with a handful of washers inside an area where two sheetmetal panels were spot welded together. So it would rattle. He once found a small padlock inside a differential.