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Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: 3hundred] #3004850
01/13/22 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 3hundred
Originally Posted by B300 VanDanage
I would assume that I'd need a wire coming from one of those other connectors on the oil pressure switch to the choke resistor?


That's the last line in the chain of power to the choke assist heater. It allows power to the choke assist only when the engine has oil pressure.


So once there's enough pressure one of the other connectors will have power? Right now the only power at the oil pressure sending unit is coming in from the white wire from the dash...
If the other two connectors don't have power at any time does that mean the sending unit is bad?
I don't remember what else was connected to the oil sending unit, I removed a bunch of rat chewed wires that were there for the smog components that I removed...

Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3004861
01/13/22 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by B300 VanDanage
Originally Posted by 3hundred
Originally Posted by B300 VanDanage
I would assume that I'd need a wire coming from one of those other connectors on the oil pressure switch to the choke resistor?


That's the last line in the chain of power to the choke assist heater. It allows power to the choke assist only when the engine has oil pressure.


So once there's enough pressure one of the other connectors will have power? Right now the only power at the oil pressure sending unit is coming in from the white wire from the dash...
If the other two connectors don't have power at any time does that mean the sending unit is bad?
I don't remember what else was connected to the oil sending unit, I removed a bunch of rat chewed wires that were there for the smog components that I removed...


It's been a VERY long time, mebbe 35 years since I messed with it. I think there's switched power coming into the unit, power to the choke assist and metered power based on oil pressure to the gauge. Somebody with fresher memories will be around to correct me. Three wires is all I recall.


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Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: 3hundred] #3004897
01/13/22 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 3hundred
Originally Posted by B300 VanDanage
Originally Posted by 3hundred
Originally Posted by B300 VanDanage
I would assume that I'd need a wire coming from one of those other connectors on the oil pressure switch to the choke resistor?


That's the last line in the chain of power to the choke assist heater. It allows power to the choke assist only when the engine has oil pressure.


So once there's enough pressure one of the other connectors will have power? Right now the only power at the oil pressure sending unit is coming in from the white wire from the dash...
If the other two connectors don't have power at any time does that mean the sending unit is bad?
I don't remember what else was connected to the oil sending unit, I removed a bunch of rat chewed wires that were there for the smog components that I removed...


It's been a VERY long time, mebbe 35 years since I messed with it. I think there's switched power coming into the unit, power to the choke assist and metered power based on oil pressure to the gauge. Somebody with fresher memories will be around to correct me. Three wires is all I recall.


You are correct, one terminal is the signal to the oil light. With the key on but the engine off it should ground and show the light as lit. Of the remaining two terminals, one should be hooked to switched 12v. The remaining terminal goes to the compensating resistor mentioned above and is only hot with good oil pressure. This is to prevent the choke from heating up with the key on but engine off.

Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: Sniper] #3004908
01/13/22 02:31 PM
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it's amazing how close the dash controls look between the two years.
if i'm thinking correctly [HA ! biggrin] i believe those are vacuum operated.
in fact, that control [or one almost identical] was used on 74-78 C bodies. i scrapped a few of those many moons ago.
beer

Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: Sniper] #3004956
01/13/22 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Sniper


You are correct, one terminal is the signal to the oil light. With the key on but the engine off it should ground and show the light as lit. Of the remaining two terminals, one should be hooked to switched 12v. The remaining terminal goes to the compensating resistor mentioned above and is only hot with good oil pressure. This is to prevent the choke from heating up with the key on but engine off.


Ok so one of the remaining two connecters gets a "switched" 12v wire and the other to the choke resistor...
What's a "switched" 12v?? Is that just a hot wire that's only hot when the ignition is on?

Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: moparx] #3004959
01/13/22 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by moparx
it's amazing how close the dash controls look between the two years.
if i'm thinking correctly [HA ! biggrin] i believe those are vacuum operated.
in fact, that control [or one almost identical] was used on 74-78 C bodies. i scrapped a few of those many moons ago.
beer


I started to take stuff apart in the 94' and man oh man it's a mess!! Rats/mice chewed through the vacuum lines!!! The controls themselves are fine just dirty...
Looks like I'll be able to salvage the fan control cable also!
The hvac controls are exactly the same! The newer one has a little rectangular "box" with two vacuum line connections which I'm guessing is for A/C??? Either way I don't have those two perticular lines in my 74'...

IMG_20220113_115723813.jpgIMG_20220113_121107137.jpgIMG_20220113_122801658.jpg
Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3004971
01/13/22 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by B300 VanDanage

Ok so one of the remaining two connecters gets a "switched" 12v wire and the other to the choke resistor...
What's a "switched" 12v?? Is that just a hot wire that's only hot when the ignition is on?


Correct, switched mean it only has power when the ignition switch is on.

Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3005542
01/15/22 01:11 PM
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Well, I'm thinking of starting a couple new threads. This thread is just too cluttered with different topics now...
I'm done messing with the heat and fan controls for now. I think the vacuum controls work because I can hear things moving around in the dash when I press the buttons and also air comes out of different vents. For now the fresh air and hot air works, the fan speed controls don't really work and is stuck on max, I think... That's going to have to be a whole new thread!

I'll also try and sort out the wiring and my understanding of it some time soon... I recon the brakes will have to be done soon as well!
I'm thinking of swapping the master cylinder from the 94'...
The 94' also has nice brake and stearing lines I'll be snagging...
There'll be plenty to work on so until then, thanks and be safe!
Cya all soon!

Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3010989
01/31/22 11:25 PM
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Ok, back again about the wiring from the oil pressure switch to the resistor for the choke...
I brought a couple picture for reference...

I wired it according to how it originally was, a 'switched' wire to the pressure switch and from there a separate one to the resistor...
There's power going to pressure switch but none going to the resistor...

Is the pressure switch bad? When's it suppose to send power to the resistor?

IMG_20220131_121935688.jpgIMG_20220131_122003556.jpg
Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3011000
01/31/22 11:49 PM
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Was the motor running and did it have oil pressure? If it was not running, or was running and did not have oil pressure, the switch would not provide the voltage through it. The switch would be working correctly.

However, if the motor was running and did have oil pressure, the switch is defective.

Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: poorboy] #3011271
02/01/22 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by poorboy
Was the motor running and did it have oil pressure? If it was not running, or was running and did not have oil pressure, the switch would not provide the voltage through it. The switch would be working correctly.

However, if the motor was running and did have oil pressure, the switch is defective.


The motor was running at operating temperature...
Fired er' up, let it get up to temp. and drove around the property for a couple minutes... No power out...
It's actually a fairly new pressure switch that I bought a couple years ago, now I'm not sure if it ever worked!
Well anyway, thanks poorboy!

I forgot to ask, how would I know if there isn't any oil pressure anyway. It's running great now so am I to assume if the pressure was low or not there the motor would run rough or not at all?? How's that work?

Last edited by B300 VanDanage; 02/01/22 07:20 PM.
Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3011369
02/01/22 10:36 PM
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oil pressure is a strange thing. Most people have the understanding that motors need a certain level of oil pressure to keep running, and to a point, that is correct, but, The original motors from years ago ran without a pressurized oiling system. In the old days, motor lubrication was done mostly by splash. There was oil in the pan, and the crankshaft would make contact with it (or swing close enough to force some of the oil in the pan out of the pan), and kick the oil up into the motor to lubricate the high wear contact points. That system was used pretty effectively up through the 50s in some motors, but as the power levels increased, it was discovered that pumping the oil through the motor was more efficient and the pressurized system became the normal. These days, many of the small one cylinder motors (like your lawn mower or weed eater) still use the splash system of motor lubrication, but nearly every multiply cylinder motor uses the pressurized system. Generally speaking, a pressurized system requires a minimum amount of pressure to keep the motor operating because most high wear contact areas are no longer open enough to get much oil splash, and most crankshafts no longer make contact with the oil in the pan (it takes away HP). When the pressurized motor does not maintain enough oil pressure, the high wear areas don't receive enough oil to properly lubricate the critical parts and the contact surfaces can wear extremely fast. as one might imagine, those wore out high contact parts begin to fail and those failing parts stop the motor from running, either by a slow grinding halt, or a fast explosion. The time frame for that to happen largely depends on the original clearances the motor was built to. The more modern motors are built to a tighter tolerance and the failure often happens sooner then the older looser tolerance motors. Also, the minimum oil pressure needed varies between the manufacturers, and even between specific motors within the manufacturers.

Standard operating procedure for me was to always run a mechanical oil pressure gauge on any motor I had any question concerning oil pressure. The old Mopar motors will run a long time on pretty low oil pressure, I've seen them run for years with less then 5psi at an idle when at normal operating temp but that low oil pressure usually jumps up as the rpm increases. Chrysler considered 10 psi per 1,000 rpm to be normal and adequate for performance motors.

The down side of all this is that some of the electric sensors won't function well with low oil pressure, many won't function well below 10 psi. If the motor doesn't have enough oil pressure to make the sending unit happy, it won't function. You could pull the power wire from any ignition powered wire (on or off with the ignition switch) for your choke rather then off the oil pressure switch, as long as the choke wire runs through the little procyclin terminal thing before it is connected to the choke spring. Gene

Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: poorboy] #3011549
02/02/22 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by poorboy
oil pressure is a strange thing. Most people have the understanding that motors need a certain level of oil pressure to keep running, and to a point, that is correct, but, The original motors from years ago ran without a pressurized oiling system. In the old days, motor lubrication was done mostly by splash. There was oil in the pan, and the crankshaft would make contact with it (or swing close enough to force some of the oil in the pan out of the pan), and kick the oil up into the motor to lubricate the high wear contact points. That system was used pretty effectively up through the 50s in some motors, but as the power levels increased, it was discovered that pumping the oil through the motor was more efficient and the pressurized system became the normal. These days, many of the small one cylinder motors (like your lawn mower or weed eater) still use the splash system of motor lubrication, but nearly every multiply cylinder motor uses the pressurized system. Generally speaking, a pressurized system requires a minimum amount of pressure to keep the motor operating because most high wear contact areas are no longer open enough to get much oil splash, and most crankshafts no longer make contact with the oil in the pan (it takes away HP). When the pressurized motor does not maintain enough oil pressure, the high wear areas don't receive enough oil to properly lubricate the critical parts and the contact surfaces can wear extremely fast. as one might imagine, those wore out high contact parts begin to fail and those failing parts stop the motor from running, either by a slow grinding halt, or a fast explosion. The time frame for that to happen largely depends on the original clearances the motor was built to. The more modern motors are built to a tighter tolerance and the failure often happens sooner then the older looser tolerance motors. Also, the minimum oil pressure needed varies between the manufacturers, and even between specific motors within the manufacturers.

Standard operating procedure for me was to always run a mechanical oil pressure gauge on any motor I had any question concerning oil pressure. The old Mopar motors will run a long time on pretty low oil pressure, I've seen them run for years with less then 5psi at an idle when at normal operating temp but that low oil pressure usually jumps up as the rpm increases. Chrysler considered 10 psi per 1,000 rpm to be normal and adequate for performance motors.

The down side of all this is that some of the electric sensors won't function well with low oil pressure, many won't function well below 10 psi. If the motor doesn't have enough oil pressure to make the sending unit happy, it won't function. You could pull the power wire from any ignition powered wire (on or off with the ignition switch) for your choke rather then off the oil pressure switch, as long as the choke wire runs through the little procyclin terminal thing before it is connected to the choke spring. Gene


Thanks for explaining that...
I bought another one, hopefully it works. If it doesn't is there a way to check it? If the switch is good and still not sending power then it'll be because there's not enough pressure. How will I go about testing the oil pressure? Do I just take the switch out and hook up a pressure tester there?

Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3011742
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Just another thought, does your van have a gauge for the oil pressure, or does it just have an oil light? The sending unit for the light is different then the sending unit for the gauge. The light sending unit should just be an on/off switch but the sending unit for the gauge is probably a varied resistance switch. For what you are doing, I would think the sending unit for the light would work better, but not sure how it would work with a gauge, could make it max out.

Yes, install the fittings and tubing for the mechanical oil pressure gauge into the place the sending unit was originally in.

If you want to get fancy, that hole in the block where the sending unit screws into is a 1/8" pipe thread. You can get a short 1/8" pipe nipple (the pipe nipple can be longer or shorter to clear the back of the intake, as needed) with an 1/8" pipe "T" (the pipe "T" can be screwed onto the nipple any way that makes the best clearance) and install both the sending unit, and the mechanical gauge. Use the Teflon tape on all the threaded ends and be sure the pipe and the "T" are tight before installing the sending unit and the fittings for the gauge.

Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: poorboy] #3012143
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Originally Posted by poorboy

Just another thought, does your van have a gauge for the oil pressure, or does it just have an oil light? The sending unit for the light is different then the sending unit for the gauge. The light sending unit should just be an on/off switch but the sending unit for the gauge is probably a varied resistance switch. For what you are doing, I would think the sending unit for the light would work better, but not sure how it would work with a gauge, could make it max out.

Yes, install the fittings and tubing for the mechanical oil pressure gauge into the place the sending unit was originally in.

If you want to get fancy, that hole in the block where the sending unit screws into is a 1/8" pipe thread. You can get a short 1/8" pipe nipple (the pipe nipple can be longer or shorter to clear the back of the intake, as needed) with an 1/8" pipe "T" (the pipe "T" can be screwed onto the nipple any way that makes the best clearance) and install both the sending unit, and the mechanical gauge. Use the Teflon tape on all the threaded ends and be sure the pipe and the "T" are tight before installing the sending unit and the fittings for the gauge.


I have an oil light(pictured). I'm just replacing what was already there. I know that it's the three prong unit because the wiring that was there has the three prong connector. I removed all that old stuff because it was getting too hot and burning the wires. There was a period where my van sat for months and became home to rats so they ended up chewing those wires and that messed something up! The good thing is most of those wires were to the old smog stuff...

IMG_20220204_101732559.jpg
Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: poorboy] #3012168
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Originally Posted by poorboy

Just another thought, does your van have a gauge for the oil pressure, or does it just have an oil light? The sending unit for the light is different then the sending unit for the gauge. The light sending unit should just be an on/off switch but the sending unit for the gauge is probably a varied resistance switch. For what you are doing, I would think the sending unit for the light would work better, but not sure how it would work with a gauge, could make it max out.

Yes, install the fittings and tubing for the mechanical oil pressure gauge into the place the sending unit was originally in.

If you want to get fancy, that hole in the block where the sending unit screws into is a 1/8" pipe thread. You can get a short 1/8" pipe nipple (the pipe nipple can be longer or shorter to clear the back of the intake, as needed) with an 1/8" pipe "T" (the pipe "T" can be screwed onto the nipple any way that makes the best clearance) and install both the sending unit, and the mechanical gauge. Use the Teflon tape on all the threaded ends and be sure the pipe and the "T" are tight before installing the sending unit and the fittings for the gauge.


Now you got me thinking about installing a pressure gauge as a permanent fixture! So I would put a T fitting where the pressure switch currently is and run a metal line up to the dash to a gauge?
I think I'd also like to have a tranny temp. gauge also...
Any suggestions as to what else I should install to keep an eye on??

There's a couple of gauges I'm looking at, one goes up to 100psi and the other goes up to 15psi... What would be appropriate for my application??

Actually, they come in all ranges obviously... What's the max I should expect from this motor??

Update: I just read that it's generally 10psi per 1000rpm... I would think the 100psi gauge would work or is that too high?

Last edited by B300 VanDanage; 02/04/22 03:29 PM.
Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3012318
02/04/22 11:30 PM
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I've had some Mopar motors that have carried 60 psi + at idled when cold and could drop to 25psi once warmed up. Those motors cold, at highway rpm, could get above 80 psi until the motor warmed up.

I'm a big fan of mechanical gauges, the factory gauges (nearly all are electrical with non-numbered faces) sort of give you an idea if something is out of the normal, but you really don't know exactly what you really have. To put things in the proper perspective, currently, everything I own is using the factory gauges, but back in my younger days, everything had mechanical gauges. (I have AAA towing these days, working on something along the side of the road isn't going to happen). Back when I had real gauges, I liked oil pressure, water temp, and amp/volts (if I had to eliminate one, the amp/volt gauge would be the one to go). Trans temp is another option given where you live, but you would have to install a sending unit into the trans pan. Those gauges can be mounted at the bottom of the dash, or sort of out of the way, you probably won't be looking at them all the time, they are a reference point if you suspect something is not right, or they are some thing you check occasionally to monitor what is going on. If you are going to peruse the best gas mileage, that vacuum gauge would be a great addition, put it someplace you can see it easily while driving, like on or near the top of the dash.

Gauges can get costly pretty quickly. I would tend to stay away from the cheapest gauges you can find, but you probably don't need the most expensive gauges either. Cheap gauges tend to have a shorter life span and some have inconsistent or inaccurate readings issues. Shaking and vibration are most gauge downfalls, more expensive gauges tend to reduce the effects of vibration, careful mounting can also reduce the vibration the gauge sees. The next most common issue with gauges is damage to the mechanical tubing, careful mounting and tube routing can solve a lot of those issues, the tubing does not like sharp bends, or sharp edges and has to clear moving parts that can catch the tubing. Gene

Re: Engine not starting, carb backfires! [Re: Sniper] #3012477
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Originally Posted by Sniper


You are correct, one terminal is the signal to the oil light. With the key on but the engine off it should ground and show the light as lit. Of the remaining two terminals, one should be hooked to switched 12v. The remaining terminal goes to the compensating resistor mentioned above and is only hot with good oil pressure. This is to prevent the choke from heating up with the key on but engine off.


I didn't realize this before but I just did this check and the oil light doesn't come on in the ON position! I've already ordered a new switch...

I think what happened is when my tranny went out last year I had it parked for months and some rats made a home of the engine bay and they chewed the wires. Before I had realized the damage caused by the rats I turned the ignition on and burnt a bunch of wires and that is when the oil pressure switch got fried!

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Quote
I think what happened is when my tranny went out last year I had it parked for months and some rats made a home of the engine bay and they chewed the wires. Before I had realized the damage caused by the rats I turned the ignition on and burnt a bunch of wires and that is when the oil pressure switch got fried!


Some varmint chewed through the upstream and downstream O2 sensors (and two ignition wires) on my wife's Town and Country and shorted the PCM/ECM when I went to move it. Had to finally replace it with a reman $270 PCM/ECM and another $250 for two O2 sensors and a complete set of new ignition wires later fixed, not happy with mice, rats and varmints and soy base insulation. Should make the wire insulation out of RAT POISIN if you ask me grin Die-O-degradable insulation think I'll patent that laugh2

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Originally Posted by A12
Quote
I think what happened is when my tranny went out last year I had it parked for months and some rats made a home of the engine bay and they chewed the wires. Before I had realized the damage caused by the rats I turned the ignition on and burnt a bunch of wires and that is when the oil pressure switch got fried!


Some varmint chewed through the upstream and downstream O2 sensors (and two ignition wires) on my wife's Town and Country and shorted the PCM/ECM when I went to move it. Had to finally replace it with a reman $270 PCM/ECM and another $250 for two O2 sensors and a complete set of new ignition wires later fixed, not happy with mice, rats and varmints and soy base insulation. Should make the wire insulation out of RAT POISIN if you ask me grin Die-O-degradable insulation think I'll patent that laugh2


Not to mention they also attract snakes!
I thought I saw some sort of tape that repels critters a while back... It's like electrical tape and you wrap your existing wires in it... I've been setting up regular old rat traps under the hood... It's a never ending battle!

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