Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
#2976772
10/21/21 11:02 AM
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gregsdart
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My 550 cu in motor with 15-1 compression, .870 lift roller on methanol has the 3X Indy intake. Anyone have a 3X ported? Gains? I have port injection.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: gregsdart]
#2976778
10/21/21 11:26 AM
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JERICOGTX
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Have you ran it on the dyno yet?
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: Dragula]
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10/21/21 04:37 PM
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gregsdart
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On my 512 I gained over .12s and at least +1mph from removing that damn clover shape out of the top of the 4500 intake. I just called Wilson manifolds and it sounds like they would do a similar reshaping on mine. It won't be cheap if I have them work on it but I have spent more$$$$ for a shot at less power gain.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: gregsdart]
#2977136
10/22/21 09:03 AM
10/22/21 09:03 AM
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HardcoreB
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On my 512 I gained over .12s and at least +1mph from removing that damn clover shape out of the top of the 4500 intake. I just called Wilson manifolds and it sounds like they would do a similar reshaping on mine. It won't be cheap if I have them work on it but I have spent more$$$$ for a shot at less power gain. There's probably 25 or so HP in porting it TO YOUR APPLICATION. But again because it isn't a wet application I don't feel that is hard to do for ANYONE who knows what their doing. There may be something obvious in the plenum. Pipemax will give you ideal intake track length #'s. I believe the power you got off the dyno..where does that put you in your 3050lbs? I think you're not using all you have. Just trying to sae you some unnecessary money.
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: HardcoreB]
#2977152
10/22/21 10:02 AM
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gregsdart
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On my 512 I gained over .12s and at least +1mph from removing that damn clover shape out of the top of the 4500 intake. I just called Wilson manifolds and it sounds like they would do a similar reshaping on mine. It won't be cheap if I have them work on it but I have spent more$$$$ for a shot at less power gain. There's probably 25 or so HP in porting it TO YOUR APPLICATION. But again because it isn't a wet application I don't feel that is hard to do for ANYONE who knows what their doing. There may be something obvious in the plenum. Pipemax will give you ideal intake track length #'s. I believe the power you got off the dyno..where does that put you in your 3050lbs? I think you're not using all you have. Just trying to sae you some unnecessary money. The last runs I made were at 3015 lbs, went 154 mph at 8.84. BUT, I had some serious issues. The trans was hurting, found a bad wobble. At passenger side front. Now I know why the acceleration graph looks like it does😟
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: gregsdart]
#2977768
10/24/21 01:09 AM
10/24/21 01:09 AM
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Cab_Burge
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Is this intake a early 440-3 or the later one with the single cast in boss for the EFI injectors? There is a distinct difference in the two on the intake runner divider length sticking into the plenum I think the later manifolds stick in further than the original ones with the two cast in individual bosses for the EFI injectors Your picture looks like the original shorter dividers clean up a little
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: Wicked49670dart]
#2977839
10/24/21 11:36 AM
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fast68plymouth
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Looks like Gregs manifold has been relieved around the throttle bores a bit. Perhaps to accommodate a carb with slightly larger than “standard”(2”) 4500 throttle bores.
If Greg is running a throttle body with one large bore(like a flying toilet), I feel like the cloverleaf stuff should def go. Although, with the plenum area being dry, it may not amount to much of anything.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2977843
10/24/21 11:45 AM
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440Jim
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Is this intake a early 440-3 or the later one with the single cast in boss for the EFI injectors? I believe Greg is using a -3X manifold, not the -3 I know the -3X is a lot taller (see Indy catalog), but I don't know if the plenum to runner area is larger in cross section.
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2977978
10/24/21 08:03 PM
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gregsdart
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Is this intake a early 440-3 or the later one with the single cast in boss for the EFI injectors? There is a distinct difference in the two on the intake runner divider length sticking into the plenum I think the later manifolds stick in further than the original ones with the two cast in individual bosses for the EFI injectors Your picture looks like the original shorter dividers clean up a little My 3X has vertical injecters bosses. I bought it in Jan of 2003. Looks like i did some whittling for the four Terminater 2.5 inch throttle blades.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: HardcoreB]
#2978534
10/26/21 10:47 AM
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gregsdart
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Sorry I was out on vacation for a long weekend. That manifold didn't look too bad, but as has been mentioned I'm going to speculate that when it comes back from 'Florida' it won't have the clover up top and it won't have required any welding. I'm sure it'll be an improvement. I look forward to new results! Me too😁
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: gregsdart]
#2978617
10/26/21 03:05 PM
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JERICOGTX
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Here is a picture of a 440-3 intake, and 440-3X side by side.
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: AndyF]
#2978892
10/27/21 12:46 PM
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Al_Alguire
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Well I will say that one is on a BIG engine. To be honest I was very impressed with how it came out, both engine and intake. Makes very good power numbers but that's just a dyno number-but for a .500/.488 lobe and under 14-1 it works well. I has been low 7.20's in a 1900lb dragster here in Vegas in the summer.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: gregsdart]
#2978989
10/27/21 05:21 PM
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Al_Alguire
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Greg, No I did not had a very smart former? board member here do it. I can tell you its runs better than it did with 2x4 set up and on the dyno that was about 40HP but also two different dynos.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#2983851
11/10/21 03:48 PM
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gregsdart
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Talked to Wilson Manifolds yesterday and i am having a " mid level full port" done. That includes work on full length of the runners but no major cutting I assume. Since there are a lot of changes to the combo, the comparison to the " before" dyno numbers will be hard to figure. The changes are- Changed from Milodon gear drive to belt drive. .240 longer rods .036/036/3mm rings with lower tension, from .043/.043/3/16 low tension? Gibtech pistons, L2L coated on skirts same as original pistons. New wrist pins, DLC COATED .205 wall thick( from .180) BMP block, aluminum versus iron megablock Same center weighted Crower crank, which I hope will reduce any issues of distortion and ring seal that may come from a non center weighted crank. Everything else will remain the same dyno sheet from June 2020
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: HardcoreB]
#2984394
11/12/21 07:14 AM
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gregsdart
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Did you have Jones make you this cam? Did he recommend spring loads? What's the #'s 050 200 LSA? Lobe lift? Jones spec'd it out. Inverted flank roller, .510 intake lobe .480 ex lobe. 1.7 Jesel Rockers. Duration @ .050 int 284 ex 296 . 113LSA in at 111. .200 numbers are ? 205 int?. Lash is .019 int and .020 ex.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: HardcoreB]
#2984447
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D Nice! Did he spec you Seat/Open valve loads? I told him what I was using and as I recall that was deamed ok. Due to economy I stayed with comp 947 triples on exhaust. Set at about 330 lbs on the seat. Intakes I had to go to PAC 1228 due to net lift of .848 after lash. Those ended up at 2.070 as I recall with about 310 lbs on the seat. The 1228 springs have a 2.100 spec installed hieght with 280 pds. At 2.070 they ended up at what I thought was enough since they have less mass than the 947s. The 2.070 is about max for -1 heads and I needed +.100 retainers and +.050 retainers combined with spring cups that are .030 thick.
Last edited by gregsdart; 11/12/21 11:26 AM.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: AndyF]
#2987349
11/21/21 12:07 AM
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Looks great. Should pick up some power for you. I've tested a lot of Wilson intakes and they are usually 20 to 30 hp better than as cast. Sounds great to me Andy. I was concerned it may not gain that much due to the methanol port injection, will be interesting when I get it on the dyno.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: gregsdart]
#2987460
11/21/21 12:24 PM
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Port injection?
So I guess it still has to have the fuel rails, etc installed.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: gregsdart]
#2987628
11/21/21 07:56 PM
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Port injection?
So I guess it still has to have the fuel rails, etc installed. Individual nozzles screw into each runner by the head. Have you played around with different nozzle locations? There should be some power gain from evaporation but I don't know where the nozzle should be to optimize that.
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: gregsdart]
#2987672
11/21/21 10:51 PM
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Port injection?
So I guess it still has to have the fuel rails, etc installed. Individual nozzles screw into each runner by the head. Is that after having the manifold machined for them?
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2987676
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Port injection?
So I guess it still has to have the fuel rails, etc installed. Individual nozzles screw into each runner by the head. Is that after having the manifold machined for them? I drilled and tapped them. As far as nozzle placement I have asked experts about it, as I recall no advantage to moving them. But, a call to Kinsler tomorrow since you mentioned it for another opinion.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: gregsdart]
#2987691
11/22/21 01:28 AM
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I've seen, years ago, roundy round dirt sprint cars with the Kinsler F.I. using them with the methanol injector nozzles mounted halfway up the tubes, not anywhere near the flanges.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: AndyF]
#2987702
11/22/21 05:43 AM
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440Jim
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Looks great. Should pick up some power for you. I've tested a lot of Wilson intakes and they are usually 20 to 30 hp better than as cast. Definitely looks great. I don't know anything. So, itis good to hear experience fron testing.
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: 440Jim]
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Talked to Wilson Manifolds yesterday and i am having a " mid level full port" done. That includes work on full length of the runners but no major cutting I assume. So what was the cost? This was a quote for my 440-2 before we started to make an entirely new intake based on that casting: "Our Competition Porting Service is $1675 and an EFI Conversion (install bungs, billet -8 or -10 fuel rails and stanchions) is $800. " I will most likely send it out eventually as my low deck engine collection grows.
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: 440Jim]
#2987874
11/22/21 03:45 PM
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AndyF
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OK, I think Indy is selling the 3X intake for $700 now. Plus $1700 ... $2,400 cast intake manifold. I did look at Wilson's web site and some of their sheet metal intakes are around $4,500
I guess the days of $150 used intakes from the swap meet are over... I'll sell you a used intake for $150. It won't make as much power as a $1500 intake, but your engine will run.
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: AndyF]
#2988580
11/24/21 09:32 AM
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gregsdart
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Port injection?
So I guess it still has to have the fuel rails, etc installed. Individual nozzles screw into each runner by the head. Have you played around with different nozzle locations? There should be some power gain from evaporation but I don't know where the nozzle should be to optimize that. After reading this I chose to leave the nozzles where they were. Puppy agreed. Reading further about down nozzles in the heads that spray directly on the intake valve is interesting.
Last edited by gregsdart; 11/24/21 09:36 AM.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: gregsdart]
#2988606
11/24/21 10:50 AM
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Port injection?
So I guess it still has to have the fuel rails, etc installed. Individual nozzles screw into each runner by the head. Have you played around with different nozzle locations? There should be some power gain from evaporation but I don't know where the nozzle should be to optimize that. After reading this I chose to leave the nozzles where they were. Puppy agreed. Reading further about down nozzles in the heads that spray directly on the intake valve is interesting. That’s on stack injection and I’m not sure I even believe that. I ran two flying toilets on a tunnel ram and every time I moved the nozzles up I made more power everywhere. Maybe, maybe because stack injection limits airflow moving the nozzles up may be a power loss. Maybe. But on a manifold like yours moving the nozzles up to the base of the plenum will make more power. If you lose some idle quality, increase the idle check pressure. I ended up at 12 or 14 PSI on the idle check with the nozzles up high and it idled as good as it did with the lower nozzle position.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: madscientist]
#2989474
11/26/21 11:10 PM
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Mad, I will investigate further. Thanks all for input. The last piece of the puzzle showed up today, a Jesel belt drive. Now if I have the right length pushrods,,,,,, 🤔
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: gregsdart]
#2993708
12/09/21 05:36 PM
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440Jim
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Got the 3X intake back from Wilson. I wish I knew what I am looking at🧐 Greg, Are the port exit openings (to the heads) this size? or closer to 1.375 x 2.65 From the Indy web site for intake gaskets:
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Re: Indy 3X , 550 cubes, gains from p porting the intake?
[Re: gregsdart]
#2993933
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tboomer
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My ports match the 572 gaskets perfectly. They were done by Radar(nickname?) In Iowa in 2002. Roger Lechtenberg. Same guy that did my MW Victors and Indy intake.
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