Re: DRIVING A COURSE W/ OLD IRON
[Re: A/MP]
#2941201
07/08/21 02:09 PM
07/08/21 02:09 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,240 nowhere
Sniper
master
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master
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,240
nowhere
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I've been drag racing for over 40 years. My kids are road racing with BMW's. Their cars have suspension upgrades, tires and a slight tune. I'd like to prepare one of my early A's with vintage iron and dog them around the track. Building HP won't be a problem. So I need some thoughts for suspension and how to drive that car w/o anti lock brakes. Look up the Green Brick by Ehrenberg. Pretty much sorted out the A body handling there.
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Re: DRIVING A COURSE W/ OLD IRON
[Re: Sniper]
#2941274
07/08/21 04:43 PM
07/08/21 04:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 667 Los Osos, Ca
CKessel
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 667
Los Osos, Ca
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And he embarrassed a lot of high dollar teams, even an engineer from GM. Enough of an embarrassment that they could no longer run the brick.
Carl Kessel
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Re: DRIVING A COURSE W/ OLD IRON
[Re: CKessel]
#2941310
07/08/21 06:17 PM
07/08/21 06:17 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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And he embarrassed a lot of high dollar teams, even an engineer from GM. Enough of an embarrassment that they could no longer run the brick. Well, not exactly, as far as I understood it. I thought that the Valiant was not banned, just that the regulations were changed in the class in which it competed. I read that the cars were allowed modifications that Ehrenberg didn't want to make to keep it competitive. If the cars were required to retain a stock based suspension, the Valiant would have remained a top contender.
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Re: DRIVING A COURSE W/ OLD IRON
[Re: A/MP]
#2941745
07/10/21 10:29 AM
07/10/21 10:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,022 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,022
Oregon
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I've been drag racing for over 40 years. My kids are road racing with BMW's. Their cars have suspension upgrades, tires and a slight tune. I'd like to prepare one of my early A's with vintage iron and dog them around the track. Building HP won't be a problem. So I need some thoughts for suspension and how to drive that car w/o anti lock brakes. The one thing I think is important is that you need to know going in that old school Mopars are never going be to as good as a modern chassis no matter how much you work on them. So if you plan to get really serious you should start with something modern. If you are just going to have fun and want to do it in a Mopar then no problem, go for it. But if you start with a muscle car Mopar and gradually want to go faster and faster at some point you'll hit a wall (maybe literally) because the suspension wasn't ever designed to do what you are asking it to do. The front torsion bar suspension doesn't have very much travel once you lower the car and put a big bar in it. It will work fine on a smooth track but if you hit a bump at speed it can be all over. Just depends how serious you are. If you really want to go fast then start off with a chassis that can go fast. If you want to have fun and love the classic Mopar look then go for it.
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Re: DRIVING A COURSE W/ OLD IRON
[Re: AndyF]
#2941773
07/10/21 11:58 AM
07/10/21 11:58 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,061 Atlanta, GA
mgoblue9798
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,061
Atlanta, GA
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I've been drag racing for over 40 years. My kids are road racing with BMW's. Their cars have suspension upgrades, tires and a slight tune. I'd like to prepare one of my early A's with vintage iron and dog them around the track. Building HP won't be a problem. So I need some thoughts for suspension and how to drive that car w/o anti lock brakes. The one thing I think is important is that you need to know going in that old school Mopars are never going be to as good as a modern chassis no matter how much you work on them. So if you plan to get really serious you should start with something modern. If you are just going to have fun and want to do it in a Mopar then no problem, go for it. But if you start with a muscle car Mopar and gradually want to go faster and faster at some point you'll hit a wall (maybe literally) because the suspension wasn't ever designed to do what you are asking it to do. The front torsion bar suspension doesn't have very much travel once you lower the car and put a big bar in it. It will work fine on a smooth track but if you hit a bump at speed it can be all over. Just depends how serious you are. If you really want to go fast then start off with a chassis that can go fast. If you want to have fun and love the classic Mopar look then go for it. Andy, My Challenger suffered from the ill effects of being lowered, big torsion bar, and bigger tires that you mentioned on the highway at high speeds. Are drop spindles available for E bodies, and would they help alleviate the problem by providing more suspension travel?
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Re: DRIVING A COURSE W/ OLD IRON
[Re: AndyF]
#2941858
07/10/21 05:08 PM
07/10/21 05:08 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,719 Home
SRT6776
I hate internal combustion engines!
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I hate internal combustion engines!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,719
Home
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Re: DRIVING A COURSE W/ OLD IRON
[Re: A/MP]
#2942364
07/12/21 04:04 PM
07/12/21 04:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,022 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,022
Oregon
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Doctor Diff has everything you need for brakes. Factory 11.75 discs up front with B body or C body rear drums will work for a slower car. A faster car should start off with 13 inch rotors and 17 inch wheels. Figure out how fast you want to go first or else you'll spend 2x the money replacing all the parts on the car every time you decide to go faster.
Last edited by AndyF; 07/12/21 04:04 PM.
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Re: DRIVING A COURSE W/ OLD IRON
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#2942616
07/13/21 12:26 PM
07/13/21 12:26 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 270 Mountain View, CA
68rrunner
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 270
Mountain View, CA
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Get the car as light as possible and ditch the t-bar front end and you'll be fine. Pretty sure the fastest cars still have t-bars and leaf springs.... IRS or an invasive 3 link would add some improvement.
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Re: DRIVING A COURSE W/ OLD IRON
[Re: 68rrunner]
#2942685
07/13/21 03:58 PM
07/13/21 03:58 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,466 Answering the call of the wild
ThermoQuad
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,466
Answering the call of the wild
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Dear OP I do not post much anymore for a number of good reasons but I can't sit here and let them lead you astray. I spent over 22 years running hot laps on “Thunder Road", Watkins Glen International Raceway. 2x per year so 4 days a year for 22 years...a lot of laps. The measure of success is lap times.
I set up 6 different vehicles, drove 5/6, I did not drive the bird.
AAR Cuda 4 speed 70 Charger R/T Auto 1996 Dodge Intrepid ES with the GT package – no speed limiter, autostick etc 125+ mph car 1979 Chrysler Newport – you would really be surprised! SRT 10 Pickup - boring Superbird 440+6 4 speed
Don't laugh about the Intrepid and Newport as they had suspension/tire/wheel/swaybar improvements and the Superbird was set up as well with shocks, brakes, tires and firm feel sway bars. The Bird, the AAR and the Charger all put the other newer stuff on notice!. The AAR and the Charger ran under the number for a full lap at the Glen which is 2.5 minutes. Run under the number and they will come, look and wonder how that old iron can do that. Nothing exotic in any of the cars btw..
It looks like you are out for fun not racing so YES you can set up those antique torsion bar leaf sprng suspensions to allow the car to handle – read “rotate” thru the turns beat up the kid's imports.
The Charger [with factory cruise control] has hemi leaf springs and hemi torsion bars yet handles so flat the instructors that rode in the car were quite perplexed by the performance and ride quality. Your wife can drive the car to church without issue [no cage, drives very nice]. It received a ton of welding and unibody reinforcements that cannot be seen and I know some things about reinforcing unibodies that I won't share online as I may have learned something in 22 years with the help of others not on here. The AAR would run an honest 155+ mph without handling/high speed issues and would put down 130mph on the back straight. Yehaaa! The Charger is hp limited but ran a faster lap time that the AAR due to better chassis. Both cars ate imports and other so called newer faster cars like SRT Challengers etc
I still have the Charger but it is probate so maybe next year I will get to use it. If you want technical support PM me as I do log in from time to time
Last edited by ThermoQuad; 07/13/21 04:05 PM.
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Re: DRIVING A COURSE W/ OLD IRON
[Re: 68rrunner]
#2942703
07/13/21 05:22 PM
07/13/21 05:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Get the car as light as possible and ditch the t-bar front end and you'll be fine. Pretty sure the fastest cars still have t-bars and leaf springs.... IRS or an invasive 3 link would add some improvement. what car? Please don't say F1. There is a reason you don't see old Mopars at tracks all over but you do see GMs. Because the suspension on a Gen II F-body is way better than the Mopar. Can you make a t-bar work? sure but it will cost a ton. Show me one Mopar that competes (and wins) in NASA or like league. Ever been to a NASA, AER, Champ or even Lemons event? None of top teams run a t-bar set up. I love Mopars, but the T-bar isn't a good set up for road racing. One can make it better, but it will never be as good as a BMW or similar car. Last I looked the Hotchkis kit.. no brakes, no spindles, no rotors was close to $3800. If I wanted to do some road racing and be serious, I'd go with an aftermarket rack/coil over kit. way more adjustment.
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Re: DRIVING A COURSE W/ OLD IRON
[Re: 68rrunner]
#2942727
07/13/21 06:52 PM
07/13/21 06:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 667 Los Osos, Ca
CKessel
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 667
Los Osos, Ca
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Get the car as light as possible and ditch the t-bar front end and you'll be fine. Pretty sure the fastest cars still have t-bars and leaf springs.... IRS or an invasive 3 link would add some improvement. Dan has just a little experience in this. Just check out the history of his Road Runner.
Carl Kessel
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Re: DRIVING A COURSE W/ OLD IRON
[Re: CKessel]
#2942767
07/13/21 08:34 PM
07/13/21 08:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Get the car as light as possible and ditch the t-bar front end and you'll be fine. Pretty sure the fastest cars still have t-bars and leaf springs.... IRS or an invasive 3 link would add some improvement. Dan has just a little experience in this. Just check out the history of his Road Runner. I stand by what I said, I never said you can't get a Mopar to handle, it takes more effort, more time and more money than a simple rack/coil over system. If Mopars handled so great you'd see them on every track, you don't. A Gen II, III or IV GM F-body would run circles around a t-bar Mopar $ for $. You cannot compete with a car that has factory camber plates, coil overs, better geometry and a 4 link..(not Gen II) If I thought we could compete in a Mopar. I'd buy and build one. Most racing body's have rules for non-stock components. Can you get an A-body Mopar to compete with BMW's and keep a T-bar set-up? sure. can he go have fun? sure but it would cost $$$,
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Re: DRIVING A COURSE W/ OLD IRON
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#2942837
07/13/21 11:26 PM
07/13/21 11:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,467 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,467
So Cal
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Get the car as light as possible and ditch the t-bar front end and you'll be fine. Pretty sure the fastest cars still have t-bars and leaf springs.... IRS or an invasive 3 link would add some improvement. Dan has just a little experience in this. Just check out the history of his Road Runner. I stand by what I said, I never said you can't get a Mopar to handle, it takes more effort, more time and more money than a simple rack/coil over system. If Mopars handled so great you'd see them on every track, you don't. A Gen II, III or IV GM F-body would run circles around a t-bar Mopar $ for $. You cannot compete with a car that has factory camber plates, coil overs, better geometry and a 4 link..(not Gen II) If I thought we could compete in a Mopar. I'd buy and build one. Most racing body's have rules for non-stock components. Can you get an A-body Mopar to compete with BMW's and keep a T-bar set-up? sure. can he go have fun? sure but it would cost $$$, MoparMitch’s Challenger is a SCCA Solo II National Champion and has trophied over Gen II Camaro’s and Firebird’s. That’s classed competition. But yea, $ for $ and effort for effort the Chevy will win out. That’s true for most drag racing too…. So have you traded your Mopar drag car for a Chevy?
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