DRIVING A COURSE W/ OLD IRON

I've been drag racing for over 40 years. My kids are road racing with BMW's. Their cars have suspension upgrades, tires and a slight tune. I'd like to prepare one of my early A's with vintage iron and dog them around the track. Building HP won't be a problem. So I need some thoughts for suspension and how to drive that car w/o anti lock brakes.

Look up the Green Brick by Ehrenberg. Pretty much sorted out the A body handling there.

And he embarrassed a lot of high dollar teams, even an engineer from GM. Enough of an embarrassment that they could no longer run the brick.

Well, not exactly, as far as I understood it.

I thought that the Valiant was not banned, just that the regulations were changed in the class in which it competed. I read that the cars were allowed modifications that Ehrenberg didn't want to make to keep it competitive. If the cars were required to retain a stock based suspension, the Valiant would have remained a top contender.

I helped Tim W. build a '68 Valiant into a very mean road racer. It would go 160 mph on the front straight at Portland International. Would also hit 160 mph on the local freeway if you were brave enough. Suspension was still a stock design although every part got modified to some extent. It takes a lot of work to build one of these cars. Definitely cheaper and easier to just buy a used Z51 but if you need a project to keep you busy it is a good one.

A/MP, I like your thinking.
Agree on the Green Brick and that super-cool red car as references/benchmarks.

The one thing I think is important is that you need to know going in that old school Mopars are never going be to as good as a modern chassis no matter how much you work on them. So if you plan to get really serious you should start with something modern. If you are just going to have fun and want to do it in a Mopar then no problem, go for it. But if you start with a muscle car Mopar and gradually want to go faster and faster at some point you'll hit a wall (maybe literally) because the suspension wasn't ever designed to do what you are asking it to do. The front torsion bar suspension doesn't have very much travel once you lower the car and put a big bar in it. It will work fine on a smooth track but if you hit a bump at speed it can be all over. Just depends how serious you are. If you really want to go fast then start off with a chassis that can go fast. If you want to have fun and love the classic Mopar look then go for it.

Andy,

My Challenger suffered from the ill effects of being lowered, big torsion bar, and bigger tires that you mentioned on the highway at high speeds. Are drop spindles available for E bodies, and would they help alleviate the problem by providing more suspension travel?

Drop spindles would help but I've never seen any dropped spindles for a Mopar that I'd use on a serious road race car. I'd want a forged knuckle for that type of application not something cast offshore in a sketchy environment.

You can check this forum for inspiration

https://www.pro-touring.com/forums/60-Project-Updates

I'd imagine that a 2000+ Mustang could get me there quicker but then again .... I don't need the best, just keep up with the pack and maybe lap a kid or 2. I read a few fluff articles on the green brick but most were about the motor. So what I found in general, 73+ upper and lower control arms, 1"+ for the torsion bars, adjustable gas shocks 4 corners and 2 left side 2800 lbs SS springs. The front and rear brakes, I have no idea. Sounds like a reasonable package?

Doctor Diff has everything you need for brakes. Factory 11.75 discs up front with B body or C body rear drums will work for a slower car. A faster car should start off with 13 inch rotors and 17 inch wheels. Figure out how fast you want to go first or else you'll spend 2x the money replacing all the parts on the car every time you decide to go faster.

Get the car as light as possible and ditch the t-bar front end and you'll be fine.

Pretty sure the fastest cars still have t-bars and leaf springs....
IRS or an invasive 3 link would add some improvement.

Dear OP
I do not post much anymore for a number of good reasons but I can't sit here and let them lead you astray. I spent over 22 years running hot laps on “Thunder Road", Watkins Glen International Raceway. 2x per year so 4 days a year for 22 years...a lot of laps. The measure of success is lap times.

I set up 6 different vehicles, drove 5/6, I did not drive the bird.

AAR Cuda 4 speed
70 Charger R/T Auto
1996 Dodge Intrepid ES with the GT package – no speed limiter, autostick etc 125+ mph car
1979 Chrysler Newport – you would really be surprised!
SRT 10 Pickup - boring
Superbird 440+6 4 speed

Don't laugh about the Intrepid and Newport as they had suspension/tire/wheel/swaybar improvements and the Superbird was set up as well with shocks, brakes, tires and firm feel sway bars. The Bird, the AAR and the Charger all put the other newer stuff on notice!. The AAR and the Charger ran under the number for a full lap at the Glen which is 2.5 minutes. Run under the number and they will come, look and wonder how that old iron can do that. Nothing exotic in any of the cars btw..

It looks like you are out for fun not racing so YES you can set up those antique torsion bar leaf sprng suspensions to allow the car to handle – read “rotate” thru the turns beat up the kid's imports.

The Charger [with factory cruise control] has hemi leaf springs and hemi torsion bars yet handles so flat the instructors that rode in the car were quite perplexed by the performance and ride quality. Your wife can drive the car to church without issue [no cage, drives very nice]. It received a ton of welding and unibody reinforcements that cannot be seen and I know some things about reinforcing unibodies that I won't share online as I may have learned something in 22 years with the help of others not on here. The AAR would run an honest 155+ mph without handling/high speed issues and would put down 130mph on the back straight. Yehaaa! The Charger is hp limited but ran a faster lap time that the AAR due to better chassis. Both cars ate imports and other so called newer faster cars like SRT Challengers etc

I still have the Charger but it is probate so maybe next year I will get to use it.
If you want technical support PM me as I do log in from time to time

what car? Please don't say F1. There is a reason you don't see old Mopars at tracks all over but you do see GMs. Because the suspension on a Gen II F-body is way better than the Mopar. Can you make a t-bar work? sure but it will cost a ton. Show me one Mopar that competes (and wins) in NASA or like league. Ever been to a NASA, AER, Champ or even Lemons event? None of top teams run a t-bar set up. I love Mopars, but the T-bar isn't a good set up for road racing. One can make it better, but it will never be as good as a BMW or similar car. Last I looked the Hotchkis kit.. no brakes, no spindles, no rotors was close to $3800. If I wanted to do some road racing and be serious, I'd go with an aftermarket rack/coil over kit. way more adjustment.

Dan has just a little experience in this. Just check out the history of his Road Runner.

I stand by what I said, I never said you can't get a Mopar to handle, it takes more effort, more time and more money than a simple rack/coil over system. If Mopars handled so great you'd see them on every track, you don't. A Gen II, III or IV GM F-body would run circles around a t-bar Mopar $ for $. You cannot compete with a car that has factory camber plates, coil overs, better geometry and a 4 link..(not Gen II) If I thought we could compete in a Mopar. I'd buy and build one. Most racing body's have rules for non-stock components. Can you get an A-body Mopar to compete with BMW's and keep a T-bar set-up? sure. can he go have fun? sure but it would cost $$$,

MoparMitch’s Challenger is a SCCA Solo II National Champion and has trophied over Gen II Camaro’s and Firebird’s. That’s classed competition.

But yea, $ for $ and effort for effort the Chevy will win out.

That’s true for most drag racing too…. So have you traded your Mopar drag car for a Chevy?

Tim and I had this conversation multiple times. We probably should've gone with a Gen 3 rather than a 427 inch LA engine on the last build. A Gen 3 with EFI and a 5 or 6 speed transmission might have made the car more competitive without blowing the budget, but the conclusion I came to after several years of work was that the smart money was buying a used Z51 Corvette for racing. Starting with a '68 Valiant was a cheap entry point, but the project wasn't cheap by the end because almost everything other than the sheet metal was replaced or modified. A used Z51 gets you around the track pretty quickly right off the lot.

"MoparMitch’s Challenger is a SCCA Solo II National Champion and has trophied over Gen II Camaro’s and Firebird’s. That’s classed competition.

But yea, $ for $ and effort for effort the Chevy will win out.

That’s true for most drag racing too…. So have you traded your Mopar drag car for a Chevy?"

No I'm still getting my 67 together. We do race a Gen III Fireturd in Champ and Lemons, going to try AER. Since Champ changed the points structure on aftermarket front ends, I would build a Mopar now. But we/I will have to ball this car up 1st.

We also dominated the most populated and competitive SCCA region for CAM for a couple of years both with the 70 Challenger as well as a 67 Valiant I built. And I PROMISE you, we spent far less than the Chevy/Ford guys did trying to chase us down, And when they finally beat us, they had twice as much in their cars and weren't beating us by more than a couple of tenths. I've got a wall covered in NASA, SCCA, NMRA and OUSCI trophies. All in T-bar and Leaf spring cars. Just because you can't figure it out, doesn't mean that the rest of us can't. Most people still think the development we did was snake oil, but the guys that have it know.

And the reason you don't see a lot of Mopars? because Mopar guys are pussies.

Well done, could you provide a top 5 list of mods? Or 10 if possible

Thx

Full Hotchkis TVS with Adjustable shocks
Wheels, tires, brakes and seats.
Car at 3500lbs or less
Motor that puts 400hp down to the ground
Go win.
Due to driver talent and ability to set up a car, your mileage may vary.

Well I'd be sad to ball up an old Mopar, that is my main concern...either by my own fault or another's. We race in leagues where 100+ cars show up. But if I find a decently priced Mopar, I'd probably give it a try.

A/MP...

Here's my thoughts:

Start off with a simple build that gets the car dependable, stable, and useable. This will get you out there sooner and give you something to work with. Simple upgrades will get your car fast enough for a begining level. Once you are on the track, don't worry too much about the car being fast, work on your driver skill set so you become fast. It takes awhile to get comforable out there, get used to cornering lines, brake applications, and use of the accelerator. Good drivers can make slow cars fast and bad drivers in fast cars are never really fast. Once you advance in run groups, consider heavy modifications or advancing to better platforms.

I can promise you that with basic upgrades on a stock Mopar platform, you can make a decent and fun car, without spending a lot of money. Deviating from stock geometry will no doubt be better, but at what cost and effort does it take, and is it worth it. My Super Bee is using the stock platform and perfroms quite well with a few simple upgrades. I'm a driving instructor for my work and have quite a few track days under my belt. I still find my Bee to be plenty of car for my purposes and really have no need to make it faster right now. Here's a link to my setup and I'll attach a photo so you can see it on the track.

Here's a link to my build over on FBBO - FBBO - B Bodies and Road Courses[url=https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/b-bodies-and-road-courses-my-super-bee-setup.220738/#post-911918299][/url]

Here's a last little bit of advice. Go have some fun, set your expectaitons low and when you exceed them, nothing but great things will come of it. DO NOT focus on being the fastest guy out there, that will happen when you advance your skill set. Smooth is fast and good drivers can make slow cars fast.

Good Luck
Mike

^^^ That's what fun looks like, with massive points for coolness.
If I understand the OP correctly, the goal is to have fun & go quickly enough to pick off an import/newer car or two.
I can tell you that the most fun I've had in my '97 Mustang is track days.
Compared to the fast cars, it doesn't have enough power, brakes, gear, or rigidity, but passing the racier-looking cars is priceless.
Wheels & tires, springs, shifter, strut brace is about it for mods. It's obvious to me just that adding stiffness and brakes would be huge improvements.
(Bear in mind my frame of reference is Vintage TransAm, specifically a '71 ex-Penske Javelin, a privateer '69 Mustang, and an ex-Shelby '67 Mustang.)
Mopars don't have as much road-course history as GM & Ford, wasn't Chrysler's primary focus.
I say find a light Mopar, follow the advice of those here who track theirs, and enjoy Life.
There will always be a quicker guy with a bigger wallet; focus on what you can do.

Replying to all above -- Regarding the costs for an old Mopar vs similar classified cars... in my opinion they are about the same.. go ahead and price the parts.. they are about the same. Back in my development days, Mopar suspension parts were available... just had to search and find them; some were custom-made, but no more expensive than what other car-brands would cost. In my history which began with SCCA pylon AX back in the mid 1970s, the single critical and determining issue was to follow your chosen sanctioned club's racing rules.. for allowable mods. All the cars in same classes had to follow the same rules. Tires were the single biggest expense.. and sponsorships from those tire companies (free racing tires) were extremely gracious and helpful... still happens today for the most gifted drivers in all racing sports.

I emphasize "similar classified cars" in my response... I don't care about the Vettes, BMWs, Porsches, Mazdas, etc, as well as the latest model Camaros, Mustangs etc... they could and should be beating me... regardless on a pylon AX course or HPDE/HSAX road course... tires are the biggest factor.. and, again, following the sanctioned club's classifications/rules. I recently ran an HPDE on a 2.0mile road course and had fun running my Challenger against a newer 392 Challenger... he couldn't overtake me anywhere (1/2 mile straight-a-way was his only chance)... and that was a blast.. as we both commended each other off the track.

The biggest overall factor of all .. is the nut-behind-the-wheel... the driver. I've had other drivers run my car in timed competition... and sure enough... they sometimes had faster times than me... more often than I care to admit.

I also want to add with emphasis... there is no need or reason to make extreme suspension changes in our older Mopars... unless you have lots of extra time and unlimited amounts of money to do so... and then you can claim and brag about all the work that was done... and the huge expenses... and struggle with results.. and try to find a class that you will be equally running against other cars with similar mods. I've seen some of those excessively modified cars in competition and most are all for show... and no-go.

^ mitch is 100% correct. You will have fun no matter hat, but read the rules of whatever league/class you are running in. If it is just track days or parking lot racing, just build it and go have fun. Some classes have restrictions on what you can use and what you cannot. For example in Champcar...formerly Chumpcar. Aftermarket stuff costs points. The Hotchkis kit would be 20 per spring and I think 25 per shock (if adjustable). Frame ties are not required because you have to have a super well built cage. The sway bar would be more.... Now since they have made aftermarket front ends 10 points, you could use a non t-bar with coil overs for less points.. wacky. Just build it and go have fun. FWIW I had a 67 coronet. I went with a PST kit, new XHD springs, Koni front, coil overs out back and a late Abody disc set-up. was night and day over the stock stuff.

simple car.

Tom's Valiant?

Was Tom's I've owned it over 5 years and have made many upgrades. Funny thing i get more complements for it than my AAR Cuda.

I built the car before it was shipped to George for paint and body. Tom did really well for the limited budget we worked with.

Yes he did I was very impressed with his driving. I added 3.55 gears, 380 hp crate motor, still underpowered. Better 4 speed, shifter, 13 inch Baer Brakes 4 corner, next is a 390 stroker and wheels that fit the car. Im running 315s in the rear 275s in the front. Tires are hard to get now. I preferred the 285s squared. Like I got it. Plan to run Track day events now. Occasional Autox. It's an easy car to drive. Thanks Tom great guy.

Very cool. We should link up at Sears Point or Thunderhill for the next NASA event. Be nice to see the Road Runner and the Valiant back together again!
My 440 is getting a bit tired and leaky, just picked up the 438 from the machine shop.

That's cool, I'm pretty close to both tracks, being a,drag racer I need track time, but I'm planning to run Thunderhill soon.

Dan, have you done any updates on your RR since when you were stationed at Mira Mar and ran it at the GG autox events?

you'll never go back to drag racing...lol

Car is good, ran it a Sears Point earlier this year to start shaking it out.
I had planned for the 341 Challenge again this year, but I'm not sure that the car is there. I think its mad after 10 years of storage. I've got a fresh 438 I just got back from the machine shop that I want to start messing with MPFI and the CNP stuff that AndyF and some of the guys figured out.
If I an get the 4.22's swapped out and track down a funky shimmy its sporadically having, I think I'll be at a couple more NASA events to close out the year and have the car ready for a 2022 season.

F A L S E.

Cool. Will watch for updates. My car has been at a standstill since late 17 because we moved to the central coast. Built a garage, which is done and the car is inside after 2 years being out but covered up, but I still have some stuff to finish for the final inspection. Had been working on it in Ramona but had to stop due to move. Can't wait to get back at it. My focus is going to be time at Buttonwillow, some autox and a trip here and there to Famosa since its close.

lol ok go run a really heavy car.

The lighter wallet will compensate for the heavy car?

I hear ya. After I got the car back from paint jail I was so busy driving for Kevin Wesley at the NASA events to get us qualified for Nationals the Road Runner had to sit. Had to drive the new junk before we could play with the old junk. I finally kicked a friends project (68 Dart) out of the garage and that has opened up my opportunities to tinker. Like a lazy idiot, I farmed out what should have some easy work to a shop I trusted and they really set me back. I'm now re-doing a bunch of stuff and my budget for fun stuff took a $12k whack. That plus the new engine (438cid) and my racing budget for the year is kaput. The guys are still trying to drag me out to the track so if I can get the new center section built in time and get the shimmy dialed out, I'll try to make NASA Sanoma in August for a few sessions.

Here is a link to my car. I mostly post projects on FBBO [ for b bodies only] due to the ease of doing so. Kind of tough, for me anyway, to do it here. https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/updating-the-super-street-mopar.116131/

Do you have any more detail on the K-frame reinforcement? Did you separate all the panels and add structure somewhere?

I didn't separate the panels, just drilled through one layer. My method of working this over had no engineering or FEA done, just me looking at going hmmm, just like in the old days. On the idler arm mount, I did got through two layers to get to main portion of the K. Outer hole was larger than next one. Filled it up like a soft serve cone. I did cut pockets at the control arm mount, you can see them in the upper corners. Got some weld around them on the inside. I picked up some structural washers from Fastenal to put on both sides of the tube. Tacked them on then formed them around the K, finished with welding all around. On the front side of the K, where the shaft pokes through, I welded the washers on that came with the FF greasable shafts then put larger flats around them and welded them on too. The strut rod pocket got attention. If you look inside the k, there is not much there. I boxed that area in with some metal plus I put some in so I could get some welds through the topside, engine side of the k, that attached to the added on pieces inside. For cutting all of the holes, I used my Blair Rotabroach set, the 1/4-3/4" set. I did add a skid plate too. I have not gotten to the topside of it yet addressing the steering box mount but that will get done in the future when I get back to work on it. There are also some areas around the engine mount brackets that need to get trimmed of excess material. Even after I had the K tanked two times, there was still a fair amount of grunge hiding in places that showed up with the weld heat. I ended up taking the torch to the inside and burned out as much as possible from any inner areas. Lots of smoke! I do have more pics of the K. Posting them on here is a pain. If you want, pm me with your email and I can send more to you.

what series are you running in NASA? I'd like to do American Iron, but the rules seem limiting on an old Mopar.

We've been running TT3 as it has the best rules for the older cars. Tires, weight & power are the biggest parameters.

is that just against the clock or are there other cars on the track? We like racing with others...

It's Time Trials so fastest lap wins the day, however its usually pretty crowded for the first 3 sessions of the day. Its wheel to wheel with open passing. Finishing order sets grid for next session, we do rolling starts after a formation lap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkC3rHEELOc&t=14607s

Go to about the 3hour 40min mark. You'll see Kevin pounding around in the Blue Pikes Peak car and me in the White Bilstien car

That is Nationals and the last day, so a lot of folks who knew they weren't going to podium didn't even take their cars out of the trailer. At my local events a TT session will be 30-40 cars. Usually hit the back markers after 3-4 laps.

cool one reason you don't see Mopars (b-body's) in the cheap leagues is initial cost, nobody wants to destroy a Gen II or III b-body

Agreed. Wheel to wheel racing in a vintage mopar has become so expensive, it doesn't make much sense to use one any more. Perhaps there a re parts of the country where cool, old, inexpensive front engine/rwd mopars can be found, but it certainly isn't anywhere near where I live when I see basket case 4 dr F bodies being sold for $2500.

Even the weird stuff isn't cheap. Just sold my 62 4 door dart for 6k.

I have some doors and hoods for those early toads. THose cars are hideous!

Beauty is still in the eye of the beholder methinks.

I should have been clearer...I had some 60-62 Valiant parts. I gave them away yesterday.

Those who got these parts are lucky. They just need to do some polishing and it will be useful again.

I watched the 4 days of the Monterey Classic and found a recent series where they race the "70's Trans Am cars. Cars are originals and suspension and tires are strictly regulated to the era. I looked for a Mopar Performance Trans Am bulletin liked they had for drag racing with no luck. Did the 70's Nascar have to run the stock suspension? I figure that these 2 venues might be a ticket for much info. I have have an opportunity of putting my hands on a '66 Dart. That solves the weight issue.73+ UCA/LCA, spindles and 1" front torsion bars, might get me closer.

I had a bunch of Mopar NASCAR chassis pictures in my B body performance book. Basically the Mopar chassis evolved as NASCAR evolved. In the late '60s they were using torsion bar suspensions with rear leaf springs but year after year the chassis designs became stronger and more sophisticated. The K frames got moved up and welded to the chassis rather than bolted on from below. The torsion bars lasted a few years but eventually gave way to coil springs. Same with the rear leaf springs. They hung in there for a bit but then gave way to the long swing arm truck rear suspension that everyone eventually moved to.

I poked around some old NASCAR and sportsman cars when I shot pictures for the book. It was interesting to see how they kept moving weight around and making things stronger. The battery box moved a bunch of times, they went from single shocks to dual shocks up front, moved from drum brakes to disc brakes, etc. They used the C body front knuckle for many years then eventually moved to an aftermarket design.

"Though I travel through the valley of Rice, I fear NO EVIL, for TORQUE is with me !" . . . . was awesome to see that car and the little "comment line' that was on bottom of back window ! Go MOPAR !!

While that comment was funny, I removed it when I owned the car for fear of someone messing with the car because they didn't like it. We have those types of people here.

I'm curious what happened to it. I sold it to NV69B7RR and he sold it to MrBelvedere2, who then sold it to someone else. That's where the trail goes cold. I hope someone is flogging it on a track somewhere.

There used to be a video floating around the internet of some guy racing around the track at PIR when Tim's Valiant blows by him. I wish I could remember the name of the video. I've searched for it a few times but never found it. I think it was probably from a BMW or Porsche club day at the track since Tim used to go up for those types of events. He would blow most of the Porsches away but some of the GT cars were very nasty customers. Especially if they had someone who could drive behind the wheel. There was one guy with a GT3 who would dominate the track the few times I saw him. The Valiant didn't stand a chance against something like that but it would destroy the typical Viper or 911, especially one with an average driver.

I heard about that on MOPAX. Someone had the old Youtube link. The person who posted it deleted their YT account. I searched the Internet Archive wayback machine, but I couldn't find the video.