No-see-um's, or swapping to EFI under Shaker hood.
#2932800
06/13/21 12:37 PM
06/13/21 12:37 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277 West Coast, USA
jbc426
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Just thinking out loud here...I've lived with carbs on my first muscle car for decades, and three of them at that. Installing a wide band really helped me dial them in to reach a drivablility that was near EFI level performance, but there were still unresolved, ongoing issues with warm up, heat soak and hot day driveability that will never improve no matter how much tuning and tweeking I do. I have a Shaker hood that very effectively hides those 3 beautiful Holleys and Edelbrock intake too. Sure I could take off the Shaker components to expose them at car shows, but then I worry about scratching the parts, having them stolen or leaving my carbs open to the world and someone dropping something down them. You never know these days. I put off converting to EFI for quite a while because my A/C compressor is bolted down on the passenger side front of the motor to hide it, so there is no room for a crank trigger on that side of the motor. Plus, I need two pulleys on the crank, and spent a lot of time aligning my pulley set-up to maximize belt wrap and ensure good high rpm stability of the belts. With the availability of a Dual Sync distributor, I can have both a crank and a cam signal, that essentially drops right in like a distributor. Quick and easy to do, plus I can run Coil On Plug too. The entire intake, throttle body, fuel rails and most of the fuel lines will be hidden under my Shaker hood base plate, so no one would notice the missing six pack anyway. I will need to purchase an after market steel Shaker hood baseplate to fit the 4150 throttle body, spacer and taller 440 Victor intake and mount both rows of COP coils to the underside of it. I'm shipping the 440 Victor to Wilson Manifolds for their Intermediate porting, throttle body flange height adjustment, injector repositioning and fuel rail stanchion install work. The as cast Victor is really rough inside the plenum and the manifold itself is too wide resulting in significant port misalignment. I've read online that this is a common problem. I'm having my local machine shop carefully cut the manifold faces down to drop the port positions down to better fit the ports on my Indy EZ's. Wilson can take it from there once I get the ports lined up. To gauge this, I put grease on the head;s manifold flange and a bit of Permatex on the manifold, positioned the gaskets to perfectly line up with the head's intake ports and then bolt the manifold down over night. I removed it the next day, and the gaskets stay on the intake in the exact position of the head ports. I have had to slightly elongate the manifold's bolt holes to ensure the bolts don't hold the manifold up from the heads when tightened. I didn't want to cut too much off the manifold with one big cut, so I am having the shop do several smaller cuts to get the ports to line up. I'll add some pictures to illustrate the above talking points.The picture of the ports in the second photo was taken after the first cut was made on the manifold flanges. The top of the ports are still too high on one side of the manifold, so another smaller cut will take care of that prior to shipping out to Wilson so they can work their magic on the inside of the ports and plenum and blend their 4150 throttle body to the intake and set it at the correct flange height for a Shaker hood.4bbl base. My fuel system is already plumbed and has a return line, but I do have to switch fuel pumps and regulators to the higher EFI pressure stuff from Fuel Labs. These parts will swap right in making that part easy. The Holley HP ECM is all I will need for my simple conversion, and I've gone to Rich at Fastman EFI for the parts and tuning expertise. I was tempted to add nitrous, but I have a stock block and am already knocking at the limit of that piece. I may add a water methanol kit to help with our ever diminishing octane out here of the left coast. Rich recommended 66 lbs injectors, and I'm wondering if I will pick up power with this conversion or stay about where It was? There is an interesting comparision on The Hughes web site regarding the previous build of this motor running the 3-2bbls vs a big 4 bbl. Here's the link to that. The motor has since been switched to a bigger solid roller and pump gas friendly 10-2 to 1 compression. http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/3dynotest684hp500cid6pack4bbljcross012007.php
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: No-see-um's, or swapping to EFI under Shaker hood.
[Re: jbc426]
#2932805
06/13/21 01:14 PM
06/13/21 01:14 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,355 north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,355
north of coder
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as to how to check intake fitment, hughes has a tech article on how to check the intake that may be a better way than how you have checked yours. the link is over on the Q&A board under an intake leak thread. hughes lists it under "intake manifold sealing". i don't know how to jump over there while typing this, and copy the link. sorry. also, i'm not trying to bash the way you checked, or insult you in any way, rather just adding another way to check your intake fitment.
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Re: No-see-um's, or swapping to EFI under Shaker hood.
[Re: moparx]
#2932821
06/13/21 02:00 PM
06/13/21 02:00 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277 West Coast, USA
jbc426
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as to how to check intake fitment, hughes has a tech article on how to check the intake that may be a better way than how you have checked yours. the link is over on the Q&A board under an intake leak thread. hughes lists it under "intake manifold sealing". i don't know how to jump over there while typing this, and copy the link. sorry. also, i'm not trying to bash the way you checked, or insult you in any way, rather just adding another way to check your intake fitment. I appreciate the feedback. I actually bought the wax wire and .065" ground washers from Hughes. The angles of the manifold face to head face are within specs according to the result from that Hughes technique. The problem with my intake is the ports themselves were up much higher than the port openings on the heads. In order to move the manifold and ports down towards the ports on the heads, I have to narrow the intake while maintaining the correct angle. By narrowing the intake, the ports sit lower and line up correctly. The only other alternative would have been to weld and reposition the ports on the intake, which didn't make much sense when a simple milling operation would result in better port alignment. The way it was positioned, the floor of the manifold port was almost 1/4" higher than the head's port. The same thing with the roof of the port, which would have had to be welded up in order to fill the gap. The intake ports have been massaged and flow 345cfm at .600" lift according to Dwayne Porter, so they are nicely done for a non-Max Wedge port. I'll post more pictures as I make progress on this conversion.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: No-see-um's, or swapping to EFI under Shaker hood.
[Re: AndyF]
#2932970
06/13/21 09:54 PM
06/13/21 09:54 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277 West Coast, USA
jbc426
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I wanted to use the Wilson throttle body. I thought it had all the sensors I needed, but yes, I'll run it past Rich. Look for a PM. I was thinking of mounting the coils on the underside of the Shaker baseplate. It's not going to be an original one so I can drill and weld on it. Thanks Andy.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: No-see-um's, or swapping to EFI under Shaker hood.
[Re: AndyF]
#2933501
06/15/21 10:50 AM
06/15/21 10:50 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277 West Coast, USA
jbc426
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Very cool set-up. I may have to fab up something like the Shaker feet the factory used to stabilize it with the added weight.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: No-see-um's, or swapping to EFI under Shaker hood.
[Re: jbc426]
#2933516
06/15/21 11:07 AM
06/15/21 11:07 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,863 Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
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Don't question me!
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Posts: 8,863
Ontario, Canada
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The motor has since been switched to a bigger solid roller and pump gas friendly 10-2 to 1 compression. How big is that motor and what are the specs on that cam ?? Are those heads MW ports?
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Re: No-see-um's, or swapping to EFI under Shaker hood.
[Re: Stanton]
#2933552
06/15/21 12:57 PM
06/15/21 12:57 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277 West Coast, USA
jbc426
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The motor has since been switched to a bigger solid roller and pump gas friendly 10-2 to 1 compression. How big is that motor and what are the specs on that cam ?? Are those heads MW ports? High quench 493", non-Max Wedge ports and solid roller w 110 LSA, 254@.050 w/ .620" IN & 260@ .050 w/ .627" EX. It cranks 200 psi +- 3 psi in all cylinders.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: No-see-um's, or swapping to EFI under Shaker hood.
[Re: Stanton]
#2933553
06/15/21 12:59 PM
06/15/21 12:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,632 Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman
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If the car is an original 6 pak car, and if you are a 6 pak guy, I've seen it done with 3 2bbl's. I think you would enjoy it more.
2011 Drag Pak Challenger
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Re: No-see-um's, or swapping to EFI under Shaker hood.
[Re: rickseeman]
#2933569
06/15/21 02:00 PM
06/15/21 02:00 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277 West Coast, USA
jbc426
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If the car is an original 6 pak car, and if you are a 6 pak guy, I've seen it done with 3 2bbl's. I think you would enjoy it more. It is, and I am currently, but I think the six pack throttle bodies are fugly and kind of pointless given that the Shaker hood hides them nearly completely anyway. I get what you are saying, but 99% of people who ever see under my hood would never notice any difference anyway.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: No-see-um's, or swapping to EFI under Shaker hood.
[Re: jbc426]
#2933874
06/16/21 09:44 AM
06/16/21 09:44 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,863 Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
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Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,863
Ontario, Canada
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+ What is the quench ?? (I know what quench is ... what is the quench on this motor?)
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Re: No-see-um's, or swapping to EFI under Shaker hood.
[Re: Stanton]
#2933902
06/16/21 11:33 AM
06/16/21 11:33 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277 West Coast, USA
jbc426
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+ What is the quench ?? (I know what quench is ... what is the quench on this motor?) .038" if memory serves. The Indy EZ's have a small heart shaped combustion chamber. I forget how many CC's they are now. I had Dwayne Porter help spec the Ross pistons I used. They weighed 524 grams and had a reverse dome that matched the Indy EZ combustion chamber pretty closely. The rest of the piston top was zero decked.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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