Re: How would you EFI my 451?
[Re: Mopar_Rich]
#290136
04/16/09 12:01 PM
04/16/09 12:01 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 872 Charlotte NC
DCI
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 872
Charlotte NC
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Electromotive TEC 3r - ignition and efi all in one.(patented) Last one I priced was around $1800.
"Turbo will be easiest, and at the HP level will also be easiest on parts. Spend the money to do it right, and you can build a 500 HP street motor that will live a long and happy life, and probably with a very basic short block."
Those words must have left a bad taste in his mouth!
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Re: How would you EFI my 451?
[Re: 440FISH]
#290140
04/16/09 07:15 PM
04/16/09 07:15 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 872 Charlotte NC
DCI
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 872
Charlotte NC
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Electromotive Quote:
Standard features built in to the TEC³: # PC programmable and configurable for 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, cyl. engines and Rotories with a 12 cyl.and 6 cyl dual plug option # Operate in Open or Closed loop # Run True Sequential, Phased Sequential or Simultaneous Injection with individual cylinder trim # Configurable for TBI, MPI, TPI and individual throttle bodies # Additional Injector Output Drivers built-in.. Run Low or High impedance injectors # Full 150 mJ of Spark Energy directly to the plugs without misfire # New Dual Rev Limiters with ‘Triple Smooth Technology’.. 1st step retards timing to a negative -12º degrees.. 2nd step cuts coil current in half.. 3rd step coil current and fuel are cut-off.. all three steps occurring within milliseconds! # Waste Gate (Boost Control), Nitrous Control with up to 4 stage retard available # Four Programmable GPO’s (General Purpose Outputs) to control or activate VTEC, Shift Lights, Water Pumps and Fans, A/C Compressor, Torque Converter and more. # New Programmable Adjustable Electronic Tachometer Output # Uses primarily GM type sensors # Diagnostic monitoring with codes issued through Check Engine Light # Easy to install bolt-on Trigger Wheel and Mag Sensor Kits available for many applications # Made in the USA New On-Board Data Acquistion # Adjustable Sample Rates up to 100 samples per second Simultaneously record data from up to 25 inputs including: Air/fuel Ratios, Injector Duty Cycle and Pulse Width, RPM and Throttle Position, Gear Position, MPH, Boost (manifold pressure) and much more! # Additional configurable Digital and Analog Input Channels View Multiple Data Graphs side by side or Graphs may be overlayed for comparison Graphic Screen Displays may be Printed and # Data may also be exported to a Spreadsheet program for further analysis Data Logging can be started and stopped manually using a switch, or the system can be configured to automatically start and stop via values pre-set by the user The TEC³ Engine Management System will run the following configurations: # 4 Cylinder # 6 Cylinder # 8 Cylinder # 4 Cylinder, Dual Plug # Staged Injection # Sequential Injection
"Turbo will be easiest, and at the HP level will also be easiest on parts. Spend the money to do it right, and you can build a 500 HP street motor that will live a long and happy life, and probably with a very basic short block."
Those words must have left a bad taste in his mouth!
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Re: How would you EFI my 451?
[Re: 440FISH]
#290141
04/16/09 07:45 PM
04/16/09 07:45 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,422 Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,422
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Quote:
Here is mine I ran it on my 454(383 block) Sold the car with out the EFI And will be installing it on a 383 that I have.
Tunnel rams make the best efi intakes! Very nice by the way.
Here's my Hemi... [image][/image]
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Re: How would you EFI my 451?
[Re: Mopar_Rich]
#290143
04/17/09 07:10 AM
04/17/09 07:10 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 872 Charlotte NC
DCI
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 872
Charlotte NC
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Correct you need the cam signal. Contact Hesco in Al they could set you up with anything you want for electromotive.
"Turbo will be easiest, and at the HP level will also be easiest on parts. Spend the money to do it right, and you can build a 500 HP street motor that will live a long and happy life, and probably with a very basic short block."
Those words must have left a bad taste in his mouth!
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Re: How would you EFI my 451?
[Re: BurntOrange]
#290147
04/17/09 02:46 PM
04/17/09 02:46 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533 Indiana
Fury Fan
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master
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Posts: 3,533
Indiana
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You can spend anywhere from $1000 to $5000 depending on how much you want to do yourself. Some folks insist sequential is the only way to go, but batch works well. Heck, even a throttle body setup will be superior to a carb for drivability (carb folks disagree, of course). Megasquirt is a good low-buck controller for folks wanting to do it themselves. If you want throttle body injection: http://www.wilsonmanifolds.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=110The benefit to the above unit is that it uses port-style injectors, which gives lots of injector options for $250 (or less). Or get a Holley Commander 4-injector type off Ebay. Holley's ECMs have a bad reputation on the 'net, so consider a different controller. Getting injectors large enough to feed a 451 in a Holley-type TBI is expensive (there are only 4 injectors, so they are lots higher flowrate). The Holley also uses proprietary parts, whereas most of the other aftermarket stuff tends to use OEM sensors, etc.
Parts I seek:
driver doorpanel, 65 Sport Fury, prefer black, needs to be 7-8 on 10 scale, might buy set
16" x 6" Dodge truck wheel(s), from early 70s?, takes 9" dogdish - need for a research job so cheaper is better.
69-73 C-body caliper brackets and/or splashields
Send a PM.
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Re: How would you EFI my 451?
[Re: patrick]
#290148
04/17/09 04:50 PM
04/17/09 04:50 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
considering most OEM efi cars were running in batch fire mode with wasted spark through at least the mid 90's, is sequential really necessary for your use?
Most people would not notice the difference between having sequential and having a batch fire system. Pretty much all EFI systems in the 80's were batch fire. Heck, once the 90's rolled around chrysler switched to sequential, their system went into batch fire mode when the engine went above 3000rpm just because a valve opens and closes too quickly for effective sequential firing. I think it was developed more for low-speed emissions output that anything else.
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Re: How would you EFI my 451?
[Re: DCI]
#290149
04/19/09 01:13 AM
04/19/09 01:13 AM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 271 Dallas, Wisconsin
BurntOrange
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 271
Dallas, Wisconsin
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Quote:
Electromotive TEC 3r - ignition and efi all in one.(patented) Last one I priced was around $1800.
Includes: t-body, pump, hoses, injectors . . ?
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Re: How would you EFI my 451?
[Re: moparborn]
#290151
04/19/09 10:42 PM
04/19/09 10:42 PM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 271 Dallas, Wisconsin
BurntOrange
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 271
Dallas, Wisconsin
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Quote:
You can look at retrotek injection. Powerjection III is a nice and clean setup.
The Retrotek and EZ-EFI both look like what I'd possible want.
Help me compare the two.
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Re: How would you EFI my 451?
[Re: BurntOrange]
#290152
04/21/09 01:28 AM
04/21/09 01:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,078 Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Dartman75
master
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,078
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Some points on EFI and EFI intake designs 1) Tunnel rams work very well for EFI 2) Ensure the rail retention system doesn't not block access to the intake manifold bolts of it will be a pain to get at them. 3) Plumb the return side of the rails from the highest side of the rails (helps with air getting out of the rails as fuel flows 4) You can run sequential without a CAM signal, though what that would do depends on the controller. Testing on my home brew controller it makes 0 difference to idle quality on an agressive motor whether the injection pulse is 0 or any 90degree increment out of phase with the valve timing. I do it to average out fuel delivery and prevent pressure fluctuations that 8 or 4 injector batch systems might suffer from when dealing with a borderline pump flow. 5) TBI systems probable work fine, though from the 3 OEM systems I've owned (92 spirit, 87 GMC Truck, some stupid monza) they all sucked. Weren't tuned well, didn't do well as winter vehicles (hard starting), always seem to need injector cleaner or they go crappy. Most of that has to do with the design of the injector itself, but where the injector is in the intake will matter. Going TBI means using an intake that works well for carbs/wet flow. 6) Return lines don't need to be larger than the supply lines. AN-6 line on a 600HP pump at full flow results in negligible pressure in the return line, and it's regulated relative to atmospheric or manifold air pressure anyways and doesn't really care what the return line pressure is so long as it is significantly below what your pressure side is designed for, and it will be with the same line size. And returning above the fuel level must be a wives tale, it make no difference to return line fuel pressure either, and I like mine returning to the sump on my tank so it will cool off with the rest of the fuel rather that pour down onto the fuel losing it's volatile elements as excess vapors. 7) use a sump if at all possible. Pumps don't like running dry when you are nearly out of fuel and hit the brakes or turn a corner etc. The pump will survive but without fuel to lube it, it's not a good thing. Personally I'd do the por tinjection. Cost to convert is roughly 400-500 bucks depending on the shop doing the work. There are several board members that do it, and using them will improve yoru support with questions before and after the fact. I did get my first intake done by an outfit that I wont' recommend (design of rail hold downs poor, thread in bungs looked like [Edited by Moparts - Keep it clean], both pairs of rails incorrectly sized causing fuel rail leaks that I had to fix with epozy and sandpaper. And the bungs were positioned poorly leading to what I believe was the injector spray pattern probably puddling on the bung walls leading to poor cold start behavior. Later with different injectors and a better understanding of my tune, I had awesome cold start performance so maybe it was just my tune. I like my tunnel ram due to the improve characteristics that an EFI motor can take advantage of, like a large plenum and pretty much uncompromised dry air flow characteristics. I also take advantage of the port injection by using a throttle body that doesn't have to be located on top of the intake which menas I stuff a whole tunnel ram under the hood which a touch of that sleeper mentallity that I can still embrace Greg
Last edited by Dartman75; 04/21/09 01:38 AM.
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Re: How would you EFI my 451?
[Re: Dartman75]
#290153
04/21/09 01:58 AM
04/21/09 01:58 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Also be sure to keep in mind the time factor involved with an efi conversion. How long will it take you to accumulate, install and tune a conventional carb, intake, fuel pump and distributor? Not that long really, versus a port EFI system in which you are modifying tanks for sumps, changing the entire fuel system, modifying intakes, throttle bodies, fuel rails, etc etc etc there is a lot of fabrication there and a good amount of time tuning. No doubt the final result is superior, but only you can decide if it's worth all the time, money and effort.
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