Re: 508” KB – B1 build
[Re: 440Jim]
#2799683
07/22/20 10:02 AM
07/22/20 10:02 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361
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The bore size and compression IMO will hurt more than anything else. Id bet its closer to 900, but hope I'm wrong. And all dynos are different more intersted to see the MPH in the car.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: 508” KB – B1 build
[Re: LA360]
#2800039
07/22/20 11:42 PM
07/22/20 11:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,270 Morrow, OH
markz528
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,270
Morrow, OH
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I'm gonna go with 930 hp............
67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph 67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph 69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
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Re: 508” KB – B1 build
[Re: LA360]
#2802080
07/28/20 10:56 AM
07/28/20 10:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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I Live Here
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Posts: 19,361
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Why are the later cast B1 valve covers taller than the early ones? Does anyone know. The early ones are about 2.5" tall Because they are cast by Indy. Same cover with a different logo on top, beneficial for both companies.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: 508” KB – B1 build
[Re: HardcoreB]
#2803630
08/01/20 10:57 AM
08/01/20 10:57 AM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073 Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger
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OP
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866hp at 6,800 and 724tq at 5,200 700tq from 5,000 to 6,500 1.7 hp per cubic inch
I was hoping for a little more but knew 850 was more realistic Small cid 508”, lower compression 12.4 and stage 1 ported heads so there more power to be had but I think this will be perfect for what I’m doing. Definitely not working the components any where near their limits.
1st two pictures were the final pull using my mechanical pump and the 2nd was the final pull using the Dyno fuel syste, it was still Miami good power at 700 but was lower, it was only at 5.7psi fuel pressure and mechanical was lower to 6.5.
I’ll post picture of the air fuel oil pressure and fuel pressure later, I left without those so getting them sent.
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Re: 508” KB – B1 build
[Re: WadeMetzinger]
#2803819
08/01/20 05:13 PM
08/01/20 05:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,923 NC
440Jim
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I Live Here
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Every dyno is different, so the number is just a number. Was that with the gasoline carb? I am surprised it peaked at such "low" rpm; both the torque (5,200) and the horsepower (6,800). I was expecting around 5,500 and 7,200 rpm. And using the Dyno fuel system the peaks were 5,600 and 7,000+ ??
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Re: 508” KB – B1 build
[Re: 440Jim]
#2803842
08/01/20 06:11 PM
08/01/20 06:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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They are good numbers for sure, but I’d like to hear how the dyno fuel system was hooked up to the motor. Were the fuel lines coming from the dyno and going directly to the carb?
For the run using the dyno fuel system, the BSFC numbers don’t really make a lot of sense. Primarily, in that the weather correction factor(based on what the BSFC numbers work out to for uncorrected HP) appear to change from about 12% at the start of the pull....... to about 19% at the end of the pull.
Based on the fuel flow and BSFC number for last line of that sheet, the uncorrected HP should be 696HP.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 508” KB – B1 build
[Re: 440Jim]
#2804651
08/03/20 12:22 PM
08/03/20 12:22 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073 Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger
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OP
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This was using gas (Renegade 112), first time in 20 years I'm running gas. All the .90 index say that you can predict day to day changes much easier with gas over alcohol. They did say if you could always get a time trial before eliminations that alcohol is the way to go but NHRA .90 racing doesn't work they way most of the time. (was told this by APD and several very successful .90 racers)
The dyno fuel system was an Aeromotive A2000 pump to an Aeromotive 2 port dead head regulator. He builds and dynos a lot of big hp motors and it works fine. I thought he run a little low on the pressure, on those pulls it ran from 4.8 - 4.4psi.
For my fuel system, I'm using my 20+ year old Enderle mechanical pump (it's been rebuilt and tested several time) and spring/shim bypass regulator you can see just on top of the pump. For Alcohol I've just ran that and didn't run another regulator so it idled at 3psi and went up to 9 psi down track. So we put the bigger spring and shims in it to keep at least 10psi going to the dead head regulator even at idle.
We set my regulator around 6 psi. I would have like to set it closer to 7.5 but I was in the dyno room adjusting and he was at the console telling me when it was good and we didn't discuss what psi to set it at, he just gave me the thumbs up at 6psi. As you can see in the detail sheet, it started at 5.8 and dropped to 5.4 so I'll add in another shim to the pump regulator and also increase the dead head regulator up to 7.5 psi when I head to the track.
These pictures are when we were using my fuel system using the front mounted fuel tank, the dyno fuel tanks are in the cabinet at the back of the dyno room.
Some of the challenged we faced: - initial start up - it sneezed 2 times so we thought I had the distributor 180 out but I didn't, so we moved it 5 degree to see if that would help it - got it started, adjusted timing to 38 degrees but it wouldn't idle below 1,600 and when it went below, it would sneeze up through the intake and die - so we decided that some of the intakes weren't adjusted right and holding a few valves open, we re-adjusted all the valve and found a few that were too tight (I let him do it, he's quicker and had a little different method) - also did a quick trace on some of the plug wires and 4 and 7 were swapped so good there - started it up gain and still wouldn't idle below 1,600 so we replaced the 47 idle air bleeds all the way down to 24 - AF mixture was decent but still wouldn't idle - pulled valve covers, plugs and wires, traced firing order and rocker motion for each cylinder and discovered that the cam wasn't a 4/7 swap cam after all...... - moved wire around, put the 47 idle air bleeds back in everything was perfect, idled down to 900 easily and AF mixture was perfect.
A one point he almost told me to take the motor home and figure out what's going on because something wasn't right and it wasn't ready for a pull....
It was good to get that figured out but now I have no idea what cam is in the motor.... the guy I got it from gave me the spec and told me it was a 4/7 swap and I confirmed with him again yesterday that it was indeed a 4/7 swap so I have no clue what cam is in the motor... I only have 1 other roller cam and it's still with my other motor.
We never adjusted the timing, we did pull the plugs a few times and they looked perfect so we didn't try moving it.
Looks like I may need to back the oil pressure down a little, but since this is pulling off the main oil galley I will probably just leave it, unless you guys think it will cause problems.
Let me know what you think about the other readings on this last chart.
One other question I had for you guys when looking at gregsdart's dyno graph compared to mine, the torque curve on mine was really flat and his was more of an arch, what would explain that and what will that mean on the track? (just curious)
Last edited by WadeMetzinger; 08/03/20 12:59 PM.
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Re: 508” KB – B1 build
[Re: WadeMetzinger]
#2804664
08/03/20 01:17 PM
08/03/20 01:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,923 NC
440Jim
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Looks like I may need to back the oil pressure down a little, but since this is pulling off the main oil galley I will probably just leave it, unless you guys think it will cause problems. The easier question... I would back the oil pressure down some. There is no need to run anywhere near that amount (115 psi) IMO. But remember, when the oil warms up, the oil pressure will be somewhat lower. FWIW, I would shoot for 80-90 cold at 1500 rpm (approximately). So when the oil warms up it is between 50-75 going down the track (5000-7000 rpm).
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Re: 508” KB – B1 build
[Re: 440Jim]
#2804717
08/03/20 05:17 PM
08/03/20 05:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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Is there a sheet showing the uncorrected HP from the run that has the motor running off the dyno fuel system ? How about a sheet showing barometric pressure and air temp?
Based on what the calculated uncorrected HP should be(going by the fuel flow and BSFC numbers) the correction factor changes over 10% from the beginning of the pull to the end(12.7% CF at 4000/23.4% CF at 7000). The correction factor is primarily used to correct for weather conditions.. A 10%+ variance is pretty big overall....... so the question is....... how can the weather inside the dyno room change that much in about 5-10 seconds?
If you look at the sheet from gregsdart the CF is within about 1% throughout the pull.
Superflow channel description and formula for BSFC:
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 508” KB – B1 build
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2804729
08/03/20 07:01 PM
08/03/20 07:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,923 NC
440Jim
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if that is intake manifold pressure, it seems restricted to me. 24.9"Hg seems low, depending on what the atmospheric pressure was in the room. Hopefully the carb was at wide open throttle. Maybe Dwayne can give a more experienced view of that pressure (depending if it was actually the manifold pressure, and what was the room atm pressure).
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Re: 508” KB – B1 build
[Re: 440Jim]
#2804756
08/03/20 08:31 PM
08/03/20 08:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I Live Here
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Honestly Jim, I’ve never seen it expressed/displayed that way.
I’m used to seeing it as inches of vacuum. I’m sure there is some formula to correlate the drop in pressure inside the manifold to a in/hg value.
Of course, then what is the Man V reading(displayed as in/hg)that’s showing numbers in the 28” range?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 508” KB – B1 build
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2804764
08/03/20 08:50 PM
08/03/20 08:50 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 268 Anchorage, Alaska
metallicareload
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Anchorage, Alaska
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...I’m used to seeing it as inches of vacuum. I’m sure there is some formula to correlate the drop in pressure inside the manifold to a in/hg value.
Of course, then what is the Man V reading(displayed as in/hg)that’s showing numbers in the 28” range?
Although it says psig, it looks more like manifold pressure absolute on the scale on the left. And then the in/Hg looks to be manifold pressure rather than in Hg of vacuum, so "upside down" if you will? If those numbers are accurate from the manifold doesn't that seem like a lot of vacuum?
Last edited by metallicareload; 08/03/20 08:51 PM.
440, 4-Speed, 3.54 1968, when Dinosaurs ruled the Earth
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Re: 508” KB – B1 build
[Re: 440Jim]
#2804877
08/04/20 08:50 AM
08/04/20 08:50 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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I Live Here
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A few things that would "concern" me. The BSFC numbers and the VE both are not what I would consider "ideal". Also she's got plenty of oil pressure for sure! Would like to know what they are measuring with the ManP and ManV are measuring and where that's being done. Jim's speculation seems as good as any but I can see Oklahoma in the summer seeing even a corrected Baro of 30.1, this aint the east coast we are talking about here. 5.5" drop in manifold pressure would be HUGE in terms of carb sizing if it is measure manifold, but I dont see in any pics where that is what it is measuring, but again it appears Jim's speculation is correct in that it is measuring baro but even that woudl have to be corrected and I woudl question the 30.1 number even corrected in Ok in the summer.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: 508” KB – B1 build
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#2804896
08/04/20 09:26 AM
08/04/20 09:26 AM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073 Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger
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I asked him last night about those Man_P and Man_V and he said they weren't hooked up, so not sure what they are or what they were measuring..
It was raining on Friday so he did hook up the air plenum to a vent that pulls air from control room where he had a window A/C unit running. It wasn't very cool in there but the air was much dryer, he said pulling air from outside with the rain would be pointless as it would never run in the rain.
I was thinking Man_P was air fuel ratio but I guess not.
Wade Metzinger 918-809-0987 71 Cuda 9.28@145 -1s, Pglide 68 Cuda 10.64@124 1.45 60's 318->390 eddys Moparts discount code on WIX - moparts www.Filter1.com
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