I need help, it let me down the other day, stopped at a friends for about 1 hour , went to leave car would not start, eventually got it started like 2 hours later. So I need to figure this out and need some help. Its a 440 6 pack all stock, I use Shell 91 Octane, has Pertronix ingnition in distributor with stock coil and reproduction wires. I verified its getting fuel.
Question I had, could it be the coil when hot is tarting to fail, is that possible.
Any ideas/suggestions would help
Thanks

You checked for gas did you check for spark?

Yep I did, checked the wire from the coil, but I'm thinking could the spark be weak? I don't if there is a way to check the output of the coil. I think maybe swap the coil out might be a start

Do you have a fuel return going to tank? I'm thinking vapor lock

look into getting one of these because of where a 6 pack coil is usually mounted.


https://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8222

Interesting you say that, I think I will change it out and start there, I'm looking for the Pertronix coil instead but I think where the coil is on the six pack , tucked in towards the back, its a good start. I just ordered a coil will try that.

I believe it has a 1/4 return line, so can you explain how a vapor lock would work?

I'd start with getting the correct coil for the Pertronix unit, the factory coil may not have the proper ohm/turn ratio to support the HallCell in the Pertronix unit, personally I always run the Pertronix epoxy filled coils... if your still running the ballast resistor, your defeating the purpose of the Pertronix system...

Mike

I just ordered the Petronix coil, I'll get in a few days, the guy who helped me install the system originally did gut the ballast and soldered in a solid wire to retain the stock look. I sure hope this procedure he did is a proper solution

Whether you have the Pertronix I or II, the ballast bypass is the best route to go to eliminate the ballast and have a true 12 volts going to the HallCell, double check your wiring, the RED lead from the hallcell goes on the positive(+) terminal of the coil, the BLACK lead from the hallcell goes to the negative (-) side of the coil, the blue/dark blue lead from your firewall junction box/ignition goes to the positive (+) lead on the coil, the ballast should be gutted and a 10 gauge insulated wire installed between the two terminals in the ceramic housing if your looking to keep it "looking stock", if not you can just connect the two ballast wires together...

If you have the Pertronix I kit, be aware that the Hallcell has no protection if you leave the key in the run position for more than 20- 30 seconds, or excessive cranking for the same amount of time as you may damage/fry the Hallcell, the Pertronix II kit has internal protection to safeguard the Hallcell, if you do need to troubleshoot the electrical system for prolonged periods and plan on leaving the key in the run position, and it doesn't involve the Pertronix, disconnect the RED hallcell lead off the coil...

FYI, try and run a brass terminal dist. cap for peak performance, no solid core plug wires...

What's your initial timing? what type of advance you running and total degrees?

back of your ballast should look like this..

Mike

Finally had some time to look at this today, started taking things apart and look what I found, the fuel line real tight against the heater hose, that surely can't help. When I took it apart to rebend it there was no fuel in the line at all. Got my new Pertonix coil today also, I will change that out at the same time.

One thing at a a time......

Joe

Are the carbs and intake manifold really hot when shut off ?

If so ... you could be BOILING THE FUEL out of the bowls

Yep I think that is what is happening, like I said there was no fuel in that line when I took it apart, now to start it I'll have to pour fuel directly in the vent on top of the carb. I want to fix this, take it out fo r a drive a measure how hot things are with my infrared. There seemed to be fuel in the fuel/separator which is good. I don't know if the line on the heater hose would be the whole contributor to the fuel boiling though?

Before you chase your tail, back up to your starting post. You said it had fuel when it would not start.

I happened today again, so I moved the fuel line away from heater hose, put in new coil and it would start after coming back from a 1/2 hour ride. I took the air cleaner off, operated the throttle from the hood and the fuel going in the carb was like vaporized, like a mist, it was not liquid.

I measured the heat of the fuel line before the filter whick is down low at 108 degrees, but the lines by the carbs were 160 degrees. So i don't know if its starting in the bowl and acting like a heat sinc or the other way.

So I don't know how I could tackle the heat at the carbs? Any suggestion? This is a stock s 440 six pack. I could get some fuel line insulation from the filter to the carb, won't look good but if it solves my problem at least I'll know. Is this worth a try?

Thanks

If you shut it off and wait 2 minutes will it restart? When hot the fuel going into the carb will go to a vapor pretty quick. One thought that could cause higher that normal intake plenum temperatures could be a improper operating heat riser valve.

No it won't start after 2 minutes today I waited 1 1/2 hour and managed to get it started but not easily. My heat riser butterfly was removed, its just there for appearance on the outside

If you shut it off and say within 30 seconds try starting, will it start?

Maybe the easiest solution now is to install an additional electric pump to alleviate the vapor lock.

I would also test your fuel pressure at idle, and crimp off that return line and see what happens.

what did you do to get it started?
clearly it seems to be a fuel problem..did you check for fuel when it didn't start again?
did you flood it?

This is interesting, what would that do?

To get started i waited 1.5 hours and used some quick start but i think the biggest factor was to let it cool down. When it didn't start, I did check for fuel, and as I mentioned the fuel was not in its liquid form, it came out as a fog in the carb

I have my doubts it is a fuel problem. If it was fuel everyone running today,s fuel would be plagued with the same complaints. To me it could be an ignition problem or voltage loss. What starter are you running? How does it spin over? I would test the voltage at the positive side of the coil while cranking. You also should buy one of these and check the available coil output. Tester

How HOT does the intake and carbs get ?

Can you touch the carbs without getting burned?

The intake heat crossover ? .. is that smoking ?

Running stock starter, I only tested the output at the coil without cranking, and it was 10.5v, my ballast has been modified by installing a direct wire between the terminals. Like I said I've got pertonix ingnition, anyone ever hear those malfunctioning because of heat. Electronics usually don't like heat and this is in the distributor?
How would I check coil voltage while cranking, I'm not 100% .

No I can't touch those parts, the heat crossover was blocked off when the engine was rebuilt, no visible sign of smoke

Do you have a heat gun ?

With the crossover blocked...the carbs should be only slightly warm.

You can start with the simplest test. See what the battery itself tests voltage wise while cranking. Then put a voltmeter on the coils positive terminal and see what the voltage is while cranking. These are two of the simplest tests that you should try. Electronics also do not like low voltage. For what its worth owning mopars for over 50 years I hate the stock starters and heat soak. Back in 1992 I went to my first mini starter and have never used the old style starter since. Night to day difference.

So it won’t start with just moving the throttle linkage , accelerator pump discharge nozzle is a mist or fog , not two steady streams of fuel from nozzle while moving gas pedal or throttle linkage ?

However when you spray starting fluid , you called it quick start , or dump some gas down the carb it starts and fires up ? Correct ?

Am I reading this right correctly , because if that’s the case

[

So it won’t start with just moving the throttle linkage , accelerator pump discharge nozzle is a mist or fog , not two steady streams of fuel from nozzle while moving gas pedal or throttle linkage ?

However when you spray starting fluid , you called it quick start , or dump some gas down the carb it starts and fires up ? Correct ?

Am I reading this right correctly , because if that’s the case
[/quote]

Yes only started after cool down, tried it right away and couldn't get it started. I'll get some some temp readings this weekend of the carbs after a cruise. Your message wasnt finished the best part is missing

Tried it right away and couldn’t get it started




Did you try starting fluid right away ? Or did you just wait hours until it cooled down

All we are trying to do here is eliminate a fuel issue ? Or next an ignition issue ?



If it doesn’t start right away next time when hot , try some starting fluid or a little gas down the carb and see if it fires up right away

Thanx

This will be my last post as you are convinced it is a fuel issue. You need to do the two simple voltage tests. Why is that? Simple you stated you have 10.5 volts at the coil without cranking. So lets say your battery is fully charged and at 12.6 volts. 12.6 minus the 10.5 gives you a voltage drop of 2.1 volts. Now if you crank it and the voltage drops to lets say 9.5 volts. With your already 2.1 loss with out cranking should equate to this 9.5 minus the 2.1 equals 7.4 volts at the coil. Pertronix systems need more than 7.4 volts. These numbers may or may not be relevant unless you do the tests.

No

I did not forget about your suggestion, I will do the test this weekend and report back. Thanks

Had a chance oover the last couple days to work on this.
First I had my battery tested it was 12.77V and CCA 693
Changed to a Pertronix coil to match my unit in the distributor
Did some voltage test when cold Battery was 12.8, Battery while cranking 11.0, voltage at coil 10.3, voltage at coil while cranking 8.5
Confirmed my clutch fan works.
So on July 6 this is what happened:
When cold got it started with a lot of pumping
After a cruise I opened the hood to let heat out
After 15 min, it started no help required
After 45 min, it started no help required.
Temp of carb bowl was 140, intake 180 after 45 min

On July 8, today, When cold , got it started but a lot of pumping
After a cruise, I left the hood down
After 5 min it started with no help
After 20 min did not start , did some temp readings, carb bowl 145,intake 175, coil 165,fuel line just before entering the carb 178 (this seem high)
After 1 hour did not start
After 3 hours, started with no help

I'm now thinking to insulate the fuel line from pump to carb, I hate to do this, but I will see if this helps.

Any other suggestions, someone mentioned to block the return fuel line, I would like to know the reason for that, I'm willing to try anything

Thanks

This is dangerously low. If your battery is in fact cranking at 11 volts and you have 8.5 on the coil that is a 2.5 volt loss. You have to remember when you are seeing this 8.5 volts the car is cold and the car is capable of starting at that time. You need to check it when it does not want to start. I will bet it is less. You could do two things. Wire a volt meter to the coil so you can monitor it in the car when it is acting up. Or make a jumper wire up to jump from the battery direct to the coil. You also could check the battery voltage when it is acting up on the hot no start. Pertronix needs a minimum of 8 volts or it is not going to fire.

I see what you mean, I will do the same checks when hot after a cruise ( and it doesn't start) and see what the readings are. What ground should I use for the meter, an engine ground or the negative side of the coil

Engine ground is fine. So positive side of the coil and a good engine ground. I have bought the small digital voltmeters off e-bay for like 6 bucks shipped.

Ok thanks, that's what I did.

Today I made up some long leads so I can put the voltmeter on the front seat.

The initial startup when cold was good, went for a ride, came back kept the hood closed. After 5 min, it started, after 10 min it started, after 50 min did not want to start like previously. The volts at the coil while standing was 10.4 and while cranking it was 9.0.

So has anyone ever hear of the module inside the distributor going bad because of heat? I think that would be the next test.

So its 4:30, 3 hrs since the ride , it started.

I'm going out tonight to get a spark plug tester and test it cold and when it won't start.

For sure being able to check for spark is a positive as far as diagnostics go. When it wont start and it for sure has no spark you will then know it was not fuel. Then again if it does have spark its on to plan B. One last item to try when it is acting up is the jumper from the battery to the coil positive. That 9 volts is at the minimum . You could also make up a jumper for that modified ballast just in case it is goofy. Your voltmeter will tell you the story. I have seen modules fail unpredictably.

So my question is, for that jumper cable from the battery to + terminal of the coil, so that is just a wire from and to those points, then when I turn the igition key what happens? I'm guessing it will turn over the starter and since it already has a direct 12v wire your'e not hurting anything, is that right?

Yes that's right. Attach the jumper and crank right away. You should see a higher voltage reading as you are not going through the cars wiring hence no voltage drop. It is just an easy test to see if it makes the igniter happy.

Ok thanks, I'll try that this weekend

I'm not familiar with the pertronix setup, but if it has it, can you check the gap between the reluctor wheel and pickup? That's the first thing I think of when people have this problem. My dad's car had that problem and we found the reluctor gap (on a MP distributor that came with the electronic ignition conversion kit back in the day) was too wide, so the heat widened it and no start when hot. We tightened it to .007ish and that resolved it.

Had a chance today to work on this, same as before cold start no problem, after a cruise shut it down and it started ok after 5 and 10 min, but after an hour no start. I did the jumper from the + battery to + on the coil and it didn't help. After two hours it started no problem. Noticed again when it didn't start the fuel was like a vapour (lighter than air) at the carb when I manually pumped it.

All the prior electrical test were done with the same results, nothing obviously wrong.

Question, battery is 7 yrs old, tested ok like I said , but could it be affected by heat, I can test the voltage but the CCA i can't. How about the starter, could heat affect its cranking power?
Also looked at the Petronix inginitor in the distributor, gap was .018 between the hall cell and the distributor. There is no mention of gap in the installation instructions, and they also say its unaffected by heat.

Any other suggestions?

With the jumper wire to the coil from the battery what was the voltage while cranking on the volt meter? What is the history on this car and the present problem?

The voltage was 12.7 before cranking, didn't get it while cranking. The car has been hard to start all the time, but it started. It has gotten worst. I talked to an engine builder around here and he says he's seeing lots of crap in the carbs because of today's fuel. I'm taking the car to him next week for him to try and figure out what is going on. But I don't know if a dirty carb would be worst when its hot.

Noticed again when it didn't start the fuel was like a vapour (lighter than air) at the carb when I manually pumped it.

The car has been hard to start all the time, but it started.







Trying to figure that statement out because it’s like the third time you mentioned it - Vapor at the carb

Go back to my July 2 posts

Do you know how an accelerator pump circuit works ?

I am having this exact same problem with my stock '71 340. Starts easy after 10-15 minutes but after 1/2 hour, will not start. Next day, started ok when cold but same problem when hot. I thought it was initially it was ignition. I swapped out the point distributor for electronic - no help. So either the fuel is vaporizing as the OP is suggesting or the opposite is happening, a slow leak of fuel past the seat causing a delayed flooding condition. To restart my car after 1/2 hour, I need to hold the pedal to the floor while cranking maximizing air into the carb. When it finally starts, it lopes to life like a flooded condition. I am convinced now, especially after reading this post that I am having a slow flooding condition causing the no start after 1/2 hour. Makes sense since the problem just started happening one day with no mods or changes.

Knowing what the battery voltage will tell you a lot as to the battery's voltage under load. A 7 year old battery is definitely a candidate for replacement. I also recommend a mini starter. I can not tell you how many hard starters that the mini has made a whole lot quicker to start. I can see fuel doing certain things to make it difficult however operator technique to each situation can usually overcome the situation. If starved a simple shot of fuel from a squirt bottle should make it fire. If flooded you definitely do not want to pump. I found out if the car was indeed flooding holding the pedal 1/3 of the way down would overcome the problem. Never let up or pump until it starts even if you quit cranking hold the pedal 1/3 open until you crank again.

I'm thinking it is the ethanol gas. I would plumb a gas can of non ethanol fuel (hard to find these days) to the pump inlet & see what transpires. If you do find a pump with non ethanol, know that an amount of ethanol will still be in the hose cuz of how the pump is plumbed when it switches from tank to tank. when I do this I pump several gallons or so into the car to clear it out then some undiluted non ethanol in a gas can. Holler how the problem is resolved. it's been an interesting topic

As Robert mentioned, if you have ethanol based fuel it will definitely cause the problem due to it's lower boiling point. Even if it's not ethanol based it could still be the cause of your issues.

One thing you can try is to open the hood and remove the air cleaner to allow the trapped heat to escape and then repeat your testing. Once confirmed there are different ways of trying to correct the issue. Keep us posted

Check your fire wall wiring connections i have owned a A12 for 40 years and yes they loose contact But I think It just flooded I have to hold the gas pedal down every time the car sits for a hour

Interesting, well as far as the fuel I'm unsing Shell V power 91 octane, supposed to be ethonol free, I see your point on the common parts of the pump. I'm going the take it for a ride today again but this time after an hour I'm going to try my best to get it start instead of waiting another hour for it to cool down. I'll try it assuming its flooded idea, then I'll spray some easy start fluid, I'll have the volt meter attached also and record the readings.I've tought about the battery, I know it tested ok at the store under load, but I wonder if heat is affecting its performance, it is a Turbo Start Retro battery and seven yrs old, and I've read lots of people having issues with these, I guess I've been lucky so far for it to last that long.

This morning I had some time, so took it out for a drive, came back and parked it. Like prior test after an hour I tried to start it, this time assuming its flooded so I depressed the pedal 1/2 way, no pumping and it started. Tried again, now 1.5 hours since the ride and it started again using the same procedure. I will try again later once the rain goes by and road are dry. So maybe I was making it worst in all my prior tests by pumping and adding fuel.
Thanks all will post when I try agian

I use ethanol free fuel and even thou it's better than regular pump gas with my shaker holding in so much heat it can still have some problems. It changes based how long it sets and how hot it is. Short time just hit key no gas fires right up. If after sitting a while and it doesn't start right up without giving it any gas the trick is to hold pedal to floor as flooded. After long time cooling off just push pedal down once like regular cold star and fires right up.

So best guess is it will sometimes boil fuel out and vapor lock and other times boil fuel through carbs and flood intake or combo of both. If car sits for more than around 3 days the bowls will go dry and need new prime. Start it every other day just hit key. An electric pump would cure the cold start problem but I haven't gotten to it yet.

You might be on to a better understanding as to what the car is doing and what you need to do to correct it. Through the years I can not tell you how many people I have observed trying to start a car and making it worse. You can be under the hood telling them to try starting and observe them pumping the gas. You tell them to quit pumping and they claim I am not. Must be a reflex that some people have. So back to your issue no doubt if you had a slightly flooded engine you could of been making it worse. Just develop a new technique to starting it and your wallet will get heavier. Again if this is your problem as I previously stated a mini starter will make an unbelievable difference.

Sometimes the obvious isn't so obvious. My carb was professionally rebuilt 3 years ago and I put about 500 miles on car since. I believe my flooding condition was caused by the ethanol degrading the rubber bowl seal. I wish I had somewhere in NJ to buy ethanol free gas.

pure-gas.org

Try here.

Great site , thanks for that

Final post here, its been a little over a week, and I've been able to start my car everytime using the flooded engine approach. I like these kinds these low $$ solutions for once. I simply depress the pedal halfway , hold it there and crank it and it fires right up.
Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

Glad it worked out. Back in the early 70's I learned that with my 69 Road Runner. Just a nature of a hot soaked beast. That was even with leaded gas. The one last thing I still will strongly suggest is a mini starter. I guarantee your crank time will be cut in half if not more.

[/quote] . The one last thing I still will strongly suggest is a mini starter. I guarantee your crank time will be cut in half if not more. [/quote]

I want to keep the stock look, the whole car is done stock as its a 440-6 matching numbers car. I guess its easy to swap out if you need to.

. The one last thing I still will strongly suggest is a mini starter. I guarantee your crank time will be cut in half if not more. [/quote]

I want to keep the stock look, the whole car is done stock as its a 440-6 matching numbers car. I guess its easy to swap out if you need to. [/quote]

I understand that especially if you are being judged at car shows. If it was me and just a nice driver I would run the mini and box the old one up for the day someone else buys it. I will just about bet with all the cranking that was done to it that its life is on the short side.

I want to keep the stock look, the whole car is done stock as its a 440-6 matching numbers car. I guess its easy to swap out if you need to. [/quote]

I understand that especially if you are being judged at car shows. If it was me and just a nice driver I would run the mini and box the old one up for the day someone else buys it. I will just about bet with all the cranking that was done to it that its life is on the short side. [/quote]

Just looked at the Mancini Racing web pages, lots of choices for mini's, is there one that you would recomend?

If I was buying today this is what I would get. I have bought from him many times and always had great results. Mancini starters are over priced. Starter.

I read every post here, my car does the same thing....(408 sb, holley dual feed)

So, I think the spark is good, but will look for fuel (Hi-test 10% eth) vaporizing. So, I am following what's going on....thanks..

He don't need new starter I have headers and not a problem with stock starter Its a old car with carbs and all you young guys need to know how to start them when hot or cold not like todays car when u turn key and computers decided if car can start

I have an old truck with an edelbrock carb and you touch the key and it starts right up. If you touch the gas before turning the key your screwed.

II have also had cars that need the pedal depressed one time before you hit the key. Just figure out the sequence that works best and don't deviate from it.

Also starters can't take a lot of time cranking over as it ruins them that much faster. If it doesn't start in a few seconds give the starter a break.

Thank you for thinking I'm a young guy LOL. This is exactly my solution. Over the last month I've been experimenting and now
1. when the car is cold and has been sitting for a while, I give two to three pumps, hold the gas pedal down 1\2 way and crank
2. when its hot and only been less than 15 min after shutdown, just crank the key
3. Over 15 min , depress pedal 1\2 way , do not pump, and she fires right up

So far this summer , this has worked.

While this is true for the most part I guarantee the cranking time will be drastically reduced with a mini starter.

I will have to say i luck out and got a reman starter from remy and they put new one in the box that cranks over real fast like a mini one