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Car won't start when hot #2787566
06/20/20 09:05 PM
06/20/20 09:05 PM
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Ont, Canada
gygeneral Offline OP
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I need help, it let me down the other day, stopped at a friends for about 1 hour , went to leave car would not start, eventually got it started like 2 hours later. So I need to figure this out and need some help. Its a 440 6 pack all stock, I use Shell 91 Octane, has Pertronix ingnition in distributor with stock coil and reproduction wires. I verified its getting fuel.
Question I had, could it be the coil when hot is tarting to fail, is that possible.
Any ideas/suggestions would help
Thanks

Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: gygeneral] #2787570
06/20/20 09:25 PM
06/20/20 09:25 PM
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Grand Prairie,Texas
stumpy Offline
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You checked for gas did you check for spark?

Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: stumpy] #2787603
06/20/20 11:29 PM
06/20/20 11:29 PM
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Ont, Canada
gygeneral Offline OP
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Originally Posted by stumpy
You checked for gas did you check for spark?


Yep I did, checked the wire from the coil, but I'm thinking could the spark be weak? I don't if there is a way to check the output of the coil. I think maybe swap the coil out might be a start

Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: gygeneral] #2787630
06/21/20 02:20 AM
06/21/20 02:20 AM
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71rm23 Offline
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Do you have a fuel return going to tank? I'm thinking vapor lock

Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: gygeneral] #2787651
06/21/20 08:20 AM
06/21/20 08:20 AM
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lancaster, new york
macmic87 Offline
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Originally Posted by gygeneral
Originally Posted by stumpy
You checked for gas did you check for spark?


Yep I did, checked the wire from the coil, but I'm thinking could the spark be weak? I don't if there is a way to check the output of the coil. I think maybe swap the coil out might be a start


look into getting one of these because of where a 6 pack coil is usually mounted.


https://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8222

Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: macmic87] #2787654
06/21/20 08:32 AM
06/21/20 08:32 AM
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Ont, Canada
gygeneral Offline OP
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Originally Posted by macmic87
Originally Posted by gygeneral
Originally Posted by stumpy
You checked for gas did you check for spark?


Yep I did, checked the wire from the coil, but I'm thinking could the spark be weak? I don't if there is a way to check the output of the coil. I think maybe swap the coil out might be a start


look into getting one of these because of where a 6 pack coil is usually mounted.


https://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8222


Interesting you say that, I think I will change it out and start there, I'm looking for the Pertronix coil instead but I think where the coil is on the six pack , tucked in towards the back, its a good start. I just ordered a coil will try that.

Last edited by gygeneral; 06/21/20 08:42 AM.
Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: 71rm23] #2787662
06/21/20 08:58 AM
06/21/20 08:58 AM
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Ont, Canada
gygeneral Offline OP
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Originally Posted by 71rm23
Do you have a fuel return going to tank? I'm thinking vapor lock


I believe it has a 1/4 return line, so can you explain how a vapor lock would work?

Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: gygeneral] #2787671
06/21/20 09:39 AM
06/21/20 09:39 AM
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Mass
DAYCLONA Offline
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I'd start with getting the correct coil for the Pertronix unit, the factory coil may not have the proper ohm/turn ratio to support the HallCell in the Pertronix unit, personally I always run the Pertronix epoxy filled coils... if your still running the ballast resistor, your defeating the purpose of the Pertronix system...

Mike

Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: DAYCLONA] #2787674
06/21/20 09:55 AM
06/21/20 09:55 AM
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Ont, Canada
gygeneral Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DAYCLONA
I'd start with getting the correct coil for the Pertronix unit, the factory coil may not have the proper ohm/turn ratio to support the HallCell in the Pertronix unit, personally I always run the Pertronix epoxy filled coils... if your still running the ballast resistor, your defeating the purpose of the Pertronix system...

Mike


I just ordered the Petronix coil, I'll get in a few days, the guy who helped me install the system originally did gut the ballast and soldered in a solid wire to retain the stock look. I sure hope this procedure he did is a proper solution

Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: gygeneral] #2787733
06/21/20 12:14 PM
06/21/20 12:14 PM
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Mass
DAYCLONA Offline
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Originally Posted by gygeneral
Originally Posted by DAYCLONA
I'd start with getting the correct coil for the Pertronix unit, the factory coil may not have the proper ohm/turn ratio to support the HallCell in the Pertronix unit, personally I always run the Pertronix epoxy filled coils... if your still running the ballast resistor, your defeating the purpose of the Pertronix system...

Mike


I just ordered the Petronix coil, I'll get in a few days, the guy who helped me install the system originally did gut the ballast and soldered in a solid wire to retain the stock look. I sure hope this procedure he did is a proper solution



Whether you have the Pertronix I or II, the ballast bypass is the best route to go to eliminate the ballast and have a true 12 volts going to the HallCell, double check your wiring, the RED lead from the hallcell goes on the positive(+) terminal of the coil, the BLACK lead from the hallcell goes to the negative (-) side of the coil, the blue/dark blue lead from your firewall junction box/ignition goes to the positive (+) lead on the coil, the ballast should be gutted and a 10 gauge insulated wire installed between the two terminals in the ceramic housing if your looking to keep it "looking stock", if not you can just connect the two ballast wires together...

If you have the Pertronix I kit, be aware that the Hallcell has no protection if you leave the key in the run position for more than 20- 30 seconds, or excessive cranking for the same amount of time as you may damage/fry the Hallcell, the Pertronix II kit has internal protection to safeguard the Hallcell, if you do need to troubleshoot the electrical system for prolonged periods and plan on leaving the key in the run position, and it doesn't involve the Pertronix, disconnect the RED hallcell lead off the coil...

FYI, try and run a brass terminal dist. cap for peak performance, no solid core plug wires...

What's your initial timing? what type of advance you running and total degrees?

back of your ballast should look like this..

Mike

ballast.JPG
Last edited by DAYCLONA; 06/21/20 12:15 PM.
Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: DAYCLONA] #2791194
06/30/20 08:22 PM
06/30/20 08:22 PM
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Posts: 1,052
Ont, Canada
gygeneral Offline OP
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Finally had some time to look at this today, started taking things apart and look what I found, the fuel line real tight against the heater hose, that surely can't help. When I took it apart to rebend it there was no fuel in the line at all. Got my new Pertonix coil today also, I will change that out at the same time.

IMG_20200630_105626.jpg
Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: gygeneral] #2791293
06/30/20 11:15 PM
06/30/20 11:15 PM
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Ohio
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jlatessa Offline
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One thing at a a time......

Joe

Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: jlatessa] #2791298
06/30/20 11:42 PM
06/30/20 11:42 PM
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Florida STAYcation
dIc dOc Deity ! Offline
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Are the carbs and intake manifold really hot when shut off ?

If so ... you could be BOILING THE FUEL out of the bowls

Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: dIc dOc Deity !] #2791366
07/01/20 08:27 AM
07/01/20 08:27 AM
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Ont, Canada
gygeneral Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Doc Fiberglass..
Are the carbs and intake manifold really hot when shut off ?

If so ... you could be BOILING THE FUEL out of the bowls


Yep I think that is what is happening, like I said there was no fuel in that line when I took it apart, now to start it I'll have to pour fuel directly in the vent on top of the carb. I want to fix this, take it out fo r a drive a measure how hot things are with my infrared. There seemed to be fuel in the fuel/separator which is good. I don't know if the line on the heater hose would be the whole contributor to the fuel boiling though?

Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: gygeneral] #2791376
07/01/20 08:50 AM
07/01/20 08:50 AM
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NITROUSN Offline
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Before you chase your tail, back up to your starting post. You said it had fuel when it would not start.

Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: NITROUSN] #2791520
07/01/20 02:02 PM
07/01/20 02:02 PM
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Ont, Canada
gygeneral Offline OP
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I happened today again, so I moved the fuel line away from heater hose, put in new coil and it would start after coming back from a 1/2 hour ride. I took the air cleaner off, operated the throttle from the hood and the fuel going in the carb was like vaporized, like a mist, it was not liquid.

I measured the heat of the fuel line before the filter whick is down low at 108 degrees, but the lines by the carbs were 160 degrees. So i don't know if its starting in the bowl and acting like a heat sinc or the other way.

So I don't know how I could tackle the heat at the carbs? Any suggestion? This is a stock s 440 six pack. I could get some fuel line insulation from the filter to the carb, won't look good but if it solves my problem at least I'll know. Is this worth a try?

Thanks

Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: gygeneral] #2791537
07/01/20 02:36 PM
07/01/20 02:36 PM
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If you shut it off and wait 2 minutes will it restart? When hot the fuel going into the carb will go to a vapor pretty quick. One thought that could cause higher that normal intake plenum temperatures could be a improper operating heat riser valve.

Last edited by NITROUSN; 07/01/20 02:39 PM.
Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: NITROUSN] #2791555
07/01/20 03:25 PM
07/01/20 03:25 PM
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Ont, Canada
gygeneral Offline OP
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Originally Posted by NITROUSN
If you shut it off and wait 2 minutes will it restart? When hot the fuel going into the carb will go to a vapor pretty quick. One thought that could cause higher that normal intake plenum temperatures could be a improper operating heat riser valve.


No it won't start after 2 minutes today I waited 1 1/2 hour and managed to get it started but not easily. My heat riser butterfly was removed, its just there for appearance on the outside

Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: gygeneral] #2791558
07/01/20 03:35 PM
07/01/20 03:35 PM
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If you shut it off and say within 30 seconds try starting, will it start?

Last edited by NITROUSN; 07/01/20 03:36 PM.
Re: Car won't start when hot [Re: NITROUSN] #2791568
07/01/20 03:56 PM
07/01/20 03:56 PM
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Central Florida
larrymopar360 Offline
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Maybe the easiest solution now is to install an additional electric pump to alleviate the vapor lock.

I would also test your fuel pressure at idle, and crimp off that return line and see what happens.


Facts are stubborn things.
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