Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI
[Re: demon]
#2764578
04/16/20 11:50 AM
04/16/20 11:50 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,002 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,002
Oregon
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I appreciate all the input and suggestions. But, I am more confused than when I started. Is it really this complicated to find a 12 volt power source? We just need to hook up one wire to make this car run. There must be dozens, if not hundreds of Mopars with the Sniper EFI or some others EFI systems installed. Where is everyone hooking up the power wire? I already answered your question. If you insist on keeping the old Mopar ignition setup with a ballast resistor then yes, you have to use the diode or the relay approach. But you really should get rid of the old Mopar ignition for the same reason you're getting rid of the carb. I've rewired many Mopar cars for EFI including both of my own. On my own cars I run IGN1 and IGN2 over to an aux fuse panel and then come off the fuse panel with my pink wires for the distributor, ignition box and ECU. You have to plan ahead when using this approach since you have to decide if you want multiple aux items active during cranking. Typically the Mopar engineers limited the amount of things that were powered on during cranking and I think there is a good reason for that. So when you tie brown and blue together you have to look at the schematic to see what else you might be connecting into the cranking circuit.
Last edited by AndyF; 04/16/20 11:54 AM.
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Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI
[Re: demon]
#2764616
04/16/20 01:15 PM
04/16/20 01:15 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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I appreciate all the input and suggestions. But, I am more confused than when I started. Is it really this complicated to find a 12 volt power source? We just need to hook up one wire to make this car run. There must be dozens, if not hundreds of Mopars with the Sniper EFI or some others EFI systems installed. Where is everyone hooking up the power wire? That's because there is NOT a single circuit on the ignition system getting full 12 volts on both ign stages ( run and start ) When in RUN, the blue wire ( Ign 1 ) is sourced from ign switch with 12 volts before the ballast, and the wire running to coil gets a reduced voltage rate throught the ballast to protect the coil, just being increased or reduced per ignition needs ( temp, load ) When START ( cranking ) the brown wire coming from ign switch ( Ign 2 ) is the one feeding the coil with a full voltage source bypassing the ballast, however while this wire is still connected to ballast, the RUN circuit keeps energized throught the ballast with a reduced power, but still enough to make the ECU ( which is sourced on a splice BEFORE the ballast ) works. This also explain why your brake ( and oil if that's the case ) lights on cluster dim out when cranking, since they are sourced from RUN ( ign 1 ) circuit. And FYI these lights in working order or not are also a way to confirm the ballast is good... or not.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI
[Re: AndyF]
#2764618
04/16/20 01:26 PM
04/16/20 01:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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I appreciate all the input and suggestions. But, I am more confused than when I started. Is it really this complicated to find a 12 volt power source? We just need to hook up one wire to make this car run. There must be dozens, if not hundreds of Mopars with the Sniper EFI or some others EFI systems installed. Where is everyone hooking up the power wire? I already answered your question. If you insist on keeping the old Mopar ignition setup with a ballast resistor then yes, you have to use the diode or the relay approach. But you really should get rid of the old Mopar ignition for the same reason you're getting rid of the carb. I've rewired many Mopar cars for EFI including both of my own. On my own cars I run IGN1 and IGN2 over to an aux fuse panel and then come off the fuse panel with my pink wires for the distributor, ignition box and ECU. You have to plan ahead when using this approach since you have to decide if you want multiple aux items active during cranking. Typically the Mopar engineers limited the amount of things that were powered on during cranking and I think there is a good reason for that. So when you tie brown and blue together you have to look at the schematic to see what else you might be connecting into the cranking circuit. Cranking and Run circuits are actually unfused, and the 12 or 14 gauge wires used in these networks ( as long than ign switch itself ) on these stages are plenty for any regular device loads. The only exceptions on this are the red wire coming into ign switch ( and its internal point ) which feeds not just Ign circuits but also Acc, and heavy loads used on engine bay accesories tipically spliced into the Run circuit like cooling fans and electric water pumps ( gas pumps are not a problem really )
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI
[Re: AndyF]
#2764621
04/16/20 01:30 PM
04/16/20 01:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,255 IL
furious70
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,255
IL
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I appreciate all the input and suggestions. But, I am more confused than when I started. Is it really this complicated to find a 12 volt power source? We just need to hook up one wire to make this car run. There must be dozens, if not hundreds of Mopars with the Sniper EFI or some others EFI systems installed. Where is everyone hooking up the power wire? I already answered your question. If you insist on keeping the old Mopar ignition setup with a ballast resistor then yes, you have to use the diode or the relay approach. But you really should get rid of the old Mopar ignition for the same reason you're getting rid of the carb. I've rewired many Mopar cars for EFI including both of my own. On my own cars I run IGN1 and IGN2 over to an aux fuse panel and then come off the fuse panel with my pink wires for the distributor, ignition box and ECU. You have to plan ahead when using this approach since you have to decide if you want multiple aux items active during cranking. Typically the Mopar engineers limited the amount of things that were powered on during cranking and I think there is a good reason for that. So when you tie brown and blue together you have to look at the schematic to see what else you might be connecting into the cranking circuit. Not that anyone needs me to agree with Andy, but my own experience does. You're really not getting the full benefit of the system you've bought without taking the next steps for ignition control as Andy has suggested. It was critical for me with a boosted application, but even NA I can't see tackling this project and not going the full way.
70 Sport Fury 68 Charger 69 Coronet 72 RR
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Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI
[Re: AndyF]
#2764645
04/16/20 02:41 PM
04/16/20 02:41 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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I'm not saying is wrong... to each own for the ppl who understand the system and preffer a custom setup, but just providing the info for the readers on how the stock system works
I guess Mopar didn't hook up the ign system into a fused circuit to prevent a fuse failure by a peak while driving, which could get stalled the engine and, if powered brakes and steering, will make hard to handle and brake. The fuse link protects everything in case of a major failure.
as mentioned, this is just an informative reply
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI
[Re: AndyF]
#2764671
04/16/20 04:01 PM
04/16/20 04:01 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,179 Canada
demon
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,179
Canada
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I appreciate all the input and suggestions. But, I am more confused than when I started. Is it really this complicated to find a 12 volt power source? We just need to hook up one wire to make this car run. There must be dozens, if not hundreds of Mopars with the Sniper EFI or some others EFI systems installed. Where is everyone hooking up the power wire? I already answered your question. If you insist on keeping the old Mopar ignition setup with a ballast resistor then yes, you have to use the diode or the relay approach. But you really should get rid of the old Mopar ignition for the same reason you're getting rid of the carb. I've rewired many Mopar cars for EFI including both of my own. On my own cars I run IGN1 and IGN2 over to an aux fuse panel and then come off the fuse panel with my pink wires for the distributor, ignition box and ECU. You have to plan ahead when using this approach since you have to decide if you want multiple aux items active during cranking. Typically the Mopar engineers limited the amount of things that were powered on during cranking and I think there is a good reason for that. So when you tie brown and blue together you have to look at the schematic to see what else you might be connecting into the cranking circuit. It is not my car. I am trying to help my buddy. That is all. He has the Chrysler electronic ignition with a 440 source distibutor. His choices, not mine.
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Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI
[Re: dvw]
#2764672
04/16/20 04:04 PM
04/16/20 04:04 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,179 Canada
demon
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,179
Canada
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Like I said. Tie the dk blue and brown together. That will provide you with battery voltage running and cranking. Nothing more. nothing less. The ballast purpose was never to protect the coil. It was to protect points or old ECUs. If Your ECU doesn't need a ballast it doesn't need diodes relays or anything else. Doug It needs a ballast. It has the Mopar electronic ignition. Chrysler used ballast resistors on every electronic ignition starting in 1972.
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Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI
[Re: demon]
#2764748
04/16/20 06:57 PM
04/16/20 06:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,002 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,002
Oregon
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I appreciate all the input and suggestions. But, I am more confused than when I started. Is it really this complicated to find a 12 volt power source? We just need to hook up one wire to make this car run. There must be dozens, if not hundreds of Mopars with the Sniper EFI or some others EFI systems installed. Where is everyone hooking up the power wire? I already answered your question. If you insist on keeping the old Mopar ignition setup with a ballast resistor then yes, you have to use the diode or the relay approach. But you really should get rid of the old Mopar ignition for the same reason you're getting rid of the carb. I've rewired many Mopar cars for EFI including both of my own. On my own cars I run IGN1 and IGN2 over to an aux fuse panel and then come off the fuse panel with my pink wires for the distributor, ignition box and ECU. You have to plan ahead when using this approach since you have to decide if you want multiple aux items active during cranking. Typically the Mopar engineers limited the amount of things that were powered on during cranking and I think there is a good reason for that. So when you tie brown and blue together you have to look at the schematic to see what else you might be connecting into the cranking circuit. It is not my car. I am trying to help my buddy. That is all. He has the Chrysler electronic ignition with a 440 source distibutor. His choices, not mine. Then you have your answer.
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Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI
[Re: dvw]
#2764859
04/16/20 10:57 PM
04/16/20 10:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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Like I said. Tie the dk blue and brown together. That will provide you with battery voltage running and cranking. Nothing more. nothing less. The ballast purpose was never to protect the coil. It was to protect points or old ECUs. If Your ECU doesn't need a ballast it doesn't need diodes relays or anything else. Doug Wel, if you search for info about that you find stuff like this How do Ballast Resistors Work?
The ignition system on a classic car is often far from perfect. Ideally, your coils would like to see a certain voltage to operate at peak performance. Your vehicle’s charging system may produce more voltage than it needs to power the coils. When your coils are overpowered, they tend to wear out, break, and require frequent replacement. Ballast Resistor for Automotive Applications
The ballast resistors are often included in the ignition kit of automotive machines such as car engines. Due to its application, such devices are called Ignition Ballast Resistor. Use of this device reduces the risk of coil failure. It is installed in the circuit between the primary voltage source for the ignition coil and the coil stud. This helps to reduce the coil voltage and coil current, therefore with the addition of the same, the coil does not get as heated as it would without the same, thus increasing the life of the coil.
However, during the starting of the ignition engine, a high voltage equal to the primary voltage source is needed. Therefore a jumper wire is often connected with the ballast resistor. This jumper wire provides the necessary voltage to make the engine start. Not arguing with you but just posting what I find.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2764870
04/16/20 11:23 PM
04/16/20 11:23 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,827 MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,827
MI, usa
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Like I said. Tie the dk blue and brown together. That will provide you with battery voltage running and cranking. Nothing more. nothing less. The ballast purpose was never to protect the coil. It was to protect points or old ECUs. If Your ECU doesn't need a ballast it doesn't need diodes relays or anything else. Doug Wel, if you search for info about that you find stuff like this How do Ballast Resistors Work?
The ignition system on a classic car is often far from perfect. Ideally, your coils would like to see a certain voltage to operate at peak performance. Your vehicle’s charging system may produce more voltage than it needs to power the coils. When your coils are overpowered, they tend to wear out, break, and require frequent replacement. Ballast Resistor for Automotive Applications
The ballast resistors are often included in the ignition kit of automotive machines such as car engines. Due to its application, such devices are called Ignition Ballast Resistor. Use of this device reduces the risk of coil failure. It is installed in the circuit between the primary voltage source for the ignition coil and the coil stud. This helps to reduce the coil voltage and coil current, therefore with the addition of the same, the coil does not get as heated as it would without the same, thus increasing the life of the coil.
However, during the starting of the ignition engine, a high voltage equal to the primary voltage source is needed. Therefore a jumper wire is often connected with the ballast resistor. This jumper wire provides the necessary voltage to make the engine start. Not arguing with you but just posting what I find. Then can you explain why coils used on aftermarket fuel injection, MSD, and current production coils don't fail when they are run without a ballast resistor? A lot of incorrect information can be found on the internet. Many times hard to wade through it all to find fact. My background? 46 years in auto repair as a tech. Currently work at FCA engineering in the Electrical Lab debugging new vehicle prototype electrical issues. Do I know everything? Nope. But been doing this stuff a long time. Doug
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Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI
[Re: dvw]
#2764884
04/17/20 01:12 AM
04/17/20 01:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122 Auburn WA
Dave_J
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Auburn WA
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Not all coils are the same. A coil with a primary Ohm reading of 0.34 Ohm is wound different than a 1.4 Ohm coil. GM coils are about 0.7 Ohm and are required to have a resisror wire inline to the coil's positive lug. If you run a 0.34 Ohm coil on a stock type ECM, the ECM is being required to switch that higher voltage and amperage and it will burn out the ECM. Yes the ECM always has 12 Volts all the time on the positive side and the Negative is connected directly to the coil. It is the negative side that will burn out in the ECM due to the excessive voltage through the coil. For a stock type ECM you need a total ohm thru the coil at about 1.9 to 2 Ohms (1.4 Ohm coil and a 0.5 Ohm OEM ballast resistor) .
Retired, US ARMY 1973-1994 ASE mechanic, Electrical 1994-1997 Retired GTE/VERIZON/FRONTIER 1997-2015
Posting cheap tech help (CRAP) here since Nov 97, 1000's of posts, some may be good.
03 Suzuki Burgman 650(Burger King) Scooter 65 Formula S Cuda 78 Little Red Express Truck 98 Buick Regal (wifes car)
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Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI
[Re: dvw]
#2764900
04/17/20 06:17 AM
04/17/20 06:17 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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As I said, I'm not arguing with you because I don't have the knowledgement to talk about that with all details, but just sharing what I have found. One of the quotes comes from pepboys website, so we could say is not a "fake" website¿?¿?¿?
And well, I have found coils labeled "no need to run with resistor" or something like that, so everything can be found around points out to the coil deal, including product itself. Maye just because the reason posted by Dave_J ?
I know some ign system like MSD don't make a constant feeding for to the coil. MSD modules handle both leads, so maybe it cuts the power while is not triggering on multisparking allowind to get, somehow" a cooling instant?
Dunno about RTR units thought.
I'm just thinking out loud and trying to learn.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI
[Re: dvw]
#2764926
04/17/20 09:03 AM
04/17/20 09:03 AM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,233 nowhere
Sniper
master
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master
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,233
nowhere
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Then can you explain why coils used on aftermarket fuel injection, MSD, and current production coils don't fail when they are run without a ballast resistor? A lot of incorrect information can be found on the internet. Many times hard to wade through it all to find fact. My background? 46 years in auto repair as a tech. Currently work at FCA engineering in the Electrical Lab debugging new vehicle prototype electrical issues. Do I know everything? Nope. But been doing this stuff a long time. Doug
If what you say you do is indeed fact, then you already know the answer to that question, or you damned well ought to. But to ease your mind they all do the same thing, limit current thru the coil, the ballast resistor is an obvious component external to anything else. Your aftermarket fuel injection, MSD, and current production setups do it internally with current limiting circuits that you cannot see but it is there.
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