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Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI [Re: demon] #2764578
04/16/20 11:50 AM
04/16/20 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by demon
I appreciate all the input and suggestions. But, I am more confused than when I started.
Is it really this complicated to find a 12 volt power source?
We just need to hook up one wire to make this car run.
There must be dozens, if not hundreds of Mopars with the Sniper EFI or some others EFI systems installed.
Where is everyone hooking up the power wire?


I already answered your question. If you insist on keeping the old Mopar ignition setup with a ballast resistor then yes, you have to use the diode or the relay approach. But you really should get rid of the old Mopar ignition for the same reason you're getting rid of the carb.

I've rewired many Mopar cars for EFI including both of my own. On my own cars I run IGN1 and IGN2 over to an aux fuse panel and then come off the fuse panel with my pink wires for the distributor, ignition box and ECU. You have to plan ahead when using this approach since you have to decide if you want multiple aux items active during cranking. Typically the Mopar engineers limited the amount of things that were powered on during cranking and I think there is a good reason for that. So when you tie brown and blue together you have to look at the schematic to see what else you might be connecting into the cranking circuit.

Last edited by AndyF; 04/16/20 11:54 AM.
Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI [Re: demon] #2764616
04/16/20 01:15 PM
04/16/20 01:15 PM
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Valencia, España
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Originally Posted by demon
I appreciate all the input and suggestions. But, I am more confused than when I started.
Is it really this complicated to find a 12 volt power source?
We just need to hook up one wire to make this car run.
There must be dozens, if not hundreds of Mopars with the Sniper EFI or some others EFI systems installed.
Where is everyone hooking up the power wire?


That's because there is NOT a single circuit on the ignition system getting full 12 volts on both ign stages ( run and start )

When in RUN, the blue wire ( Ign 1 ) is sourced from ign switch with 12 volts before the ballast, and the wire running to coil gets a reduced voltage rate throught the ballast to protect the coil, just being increased or reduced per ignition needs ( temp, load )

When START ( cranking ) the brown wire coming from ign switch ( Ign 2 ) is the one feeding the coil with a full voltage source bypassing the ballast, however while this wire is still connected to ballast, the RUN circuit keeps energized throught the ballast with a reduced power, but still enough to make the ECU ( which is sourced on a splice BEFORE the ballast ) works.

This also explain why your brake ( and oil if that's the case ) lights on cluster dim out when cranking, since they are sourced from RUN ( ign 1 ) circuit. And FYI these lights in working order or not are also a way to confirm the ballast is good... or not.


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI [Re: AndyF] #2764618
04/16/20 01:26 PM
04/16/20 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by AndyF
Originally Posted by demon
I appreciate all the input and suggestions. But, I am more confused than when I started.
Is it really this complicated to find a 12 volt power source?
We just need to hook up one wire to make this car run.
There must be dozens, if not hundreds of Mopars with the Sniper EFI or some others EFI systems installed.
Where is everyone hooking up the power wire?


I already answered your question. If you insist on keeping the old Mopar ignition setup with a ballast resistor then yes, you have to use the diode or the relay approach. But you really should get rid of the old Mopar ignition for the same reason you're getting rid of the carb.

I've rewired many Mopar cars for EFI including both of my own. On my own cars I run IGN1 and IGN2 over to an aux fuse panel and then come off the fuse panel with my pink wires for the distributor, ignition box and ECU. You have to plan ahead when using this approach since you have to decide if you want multiple aux items active during cranking. Typically the Mopar engineers limited the amount of things that were powered on during cranking and I think there is a good reason for that. So when you tie brown and blue together you have to look at the schematic to see what else you might be connecting into the cranking circuit.


Cranking and Run circuits are actually unfused, and the 12 or 14 gauge wires used in these networks ( as long than ign switch itself ) on these stages are plenty for any regular device loads.

The only exceptions on this are the red wire coming into ign switch ( and its internal point ) which feeds not just Ign circuits but also Acc, and heavy loads used on engine bay accesories tipically spliced into the Run circuit like cooling fans and electric water pumps ( gas pumps are not a problem really )


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI [Re: AndyF] #2764621
04/16/20 01:30 PM
04/16/20 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by AndyF
Originally Posted by demon
I appreciate all the input and suggestions. But, I am more confused than when I started.
Is it really this complicated to find a 12 volt power source?
We just need to hook up one wire to make this car run.
There must be dozens, if not hundreds of Mopars with the Sniper EFI or some others EFI systems installed.
Where is everyone hooking up the power wire?


I already answered your question. If you insist on keeping the old Mopar ignition setup with a ballast resistor then yes, you have to use the diode or the relay approach. But you really should get rid of the old Mopar ignition for the same reason you're getting rid of the carb.

I've rewired many Mopar cars for EFI including both of my own. On my own cars I run IGN1 and IGN2 over to an aux fuse panel and then come off the fuse panel with my pink wires for the distributor, ignition box and ECU. You have to plan ahead when using this approach since you have to decide if you want multiple aux items active during cranking. Typically the Mopar engineers limited the amount of things that were powered on during cranking and I think there is a good reason for that. So when you tie brown and blue together you have to look at the schematic to see what else you might be connecting into the cranking circuit.


Not that anyone needs me to agree with Andy, but my own experience does. You're really not getting the full benefit of the system you've bought without taking the next steps for ignition control as Andy has suggested. It was critical for me with a boosted application, but even NA I can't see tackling this project and not going the full way.


70 Sport Fury
68 Charger
69 Coronet
72 RR
Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI [Re: NachoRT74] #2764629
04/16/20 01:54 PM
04/16/20 01:54 PM
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I understand that they are unfused, that is clear on the schematic. When I hook up an EFI system I run brown and blue to a new fuse panel and then pull the pink wires required to turn on the ECU, distributor and ignition box from that fuse panel. You can argue that it isn't required and that is fine, but it is a very clean way to add a bunch of circuits to the two existing wires. It is simple for someone down the road to see what is going on. The blue and brown wire power the fuse panel and then the three pink wires come off the fuses.

I often also hook up the 12v source and sense wires for a Denso alternator to the same fuse panel. If I do an EFI conversion I usually prefer to update everything to modern parts. Denso alternator, Denso starter, etc. I get rid of the voltage regulator, Mopar ignition box and ballast resistor. I also usually get rid of the factory starter solenoid.

Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI [Re: AndyF] #2764645
04/16/20 02:41 PM
04/16/20 02:41 PM
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Posts: 6,089
Valencia, España
NachoRT74 Offline
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I'm not saying is wrong... to each own for the ppl who understand the system and preffer a custom setup, but just providing the info for the readers on how the stock system works

I guess Mopar didn't hook up the ign system into a fused circuit to prevent a fuse failure by a peak while driving, which could get stalled the engine and, if powered brakes and steering, will make hard to handle and brake. The fuse link protects everything in case of a major failure.

as mentioned, this is just an informative reply


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI [Re: AndyF] #2764671
04/16/20 04:01 PM
04/16/20 04:01 PM
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Canada
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Originally Posted by AndyF
Originally Posted by demon
I appreciate all the input and suggestions. But, I am more confused than when I started.
Is it really this complicated to find a 12 volt power source?
We just need to hook up one wire to make this car run.
There must be dozens, if not hundreds of Mopars with the Sniper EFI or some others EFI systems installed.
Where is everyone hooking up the power wire?


I already answered your question. If you insist on keeping the old Mopar ignition setup with a ballast resistor then yes, you have to use the diode or the relay approach. But you really should get rid of the old Mopar ignition for the same reason you're getting rid of the carb.

I've rewired many Mopar cars for EFI including both of my own. On my own cars I run IGN1 and IGN2 over to an aux fuse panel and then come off the fuse panel with my pink wires for the distributor, ignition box and ECU. You have to plan ahead when using this approach since you have to decide if you want multiple aux items active during cranking. Typically the Mopar engineers limited the amount of things that were powered on during cranking and I think there is a good reason for that. So when you tie brown and blue together you have to look at the schematic to see what else you might be connecting into the cranking circuit.


It is not my car. I am trying to help my buddy. That is all. He has the Chrysler electronic ignition with a 440 source distibutor. His choices, not mine.

Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI [Re: dvw] #2764672
04/16/20 04:04 PM
04/16/20 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dvw
Like I said. Tie the dk blue and brown together. That will provide you with battery voltage running and cranking. Nothing more. nothing less. The ballast purpose was never to protect the coil. It was to protect points or old ECUs. If Your ECU doesn't need a ballast it doesn't need diodes relays or anything else.
Doug


It needs a ballast. It has the Mopar electronic ignition. Chrysler used ballast resistors on every electronic ignition starting in 1972.

Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI [Re: demon] #2764748
04/16/20 06:57 PM
04/16/20 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by demon
Originally Posted by AndyF
Originally Posted by demon
I appreciate all the input and suggestions. But, I am more confused than when I started.
Is it really this complicated to find a 12 volt power source?
We just need to hook up one wire to make this car run.
There must be dozens, if not hundreds of Mopars with the Sniper EFI or some others EFI systems installed.
Where is everyone hooking up the power wire?


I already answered your question. If you insist on keeping the old Mopar ignition setup with a ballast resistor then yes, you have to use the diode or the relay approach. But you really should get rid of the old Mopar ignition for the same reason you're getting rid of the carb.

I've rewired many Mopar cars for EFI including both of my own. On my own cars I run IGN1 and IGN2 over to an aux fuse panel and then come off the fuse panel with my pink wires for the distributor, ignition box and ECU. You have to plan ahead when using this approach since you have to decide if you want multiple aux items active during cranking. Typically the Mopar engineers limited the amount of things that were powered on during cranking and I think there is a good reason for that. So when you tie brown and blue together you have to look at the schematic to see what else you might be connecting into the cranking circuit.


It is not my car. I am trying to help my buddy. That is all. He has the Chrysler electronic ignition with a 440 source distibutor. His choices, not mine.


Then you have your answer.

Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI [Re: dvw] #2764859
04/16/20 10:57 PM
04/16/20 10:57 PM
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Valencia, España
NachoRT74 Offline
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Originally Posted by dvw
Like I said. Tie the dk blue and brown together. That will provide you with battery voltage running and cranking. Nothing more. nothing less. The ballast purpose was never to protect the coil. It was to protect points or old ECUs. If Your ECU doesn't need a ballast it doesn't need diodes relays or anything else.
Doug


Wel, if you search for info about that you find stuff like this

Quote
How do Ballast Resistors Work?

The ignition system on a classic car is often far from perfect. Ideally, your coils would like to see a certain voltage to operate at peak performance. Your vehicle’s charging system may produce more voltage than it needs to power the coils. When your coils are overpowered, they tend to wear out, break, and require frequent replacement.


Quote
Ballast Resistor for Automotive Applications

The ballast resistors are often included in the ignition kit of automotive machines such as car engines. Due to its application, such devices are called Ignition Ballast Resistor. Use of this device reduces the risk of coil failure. It is installed in the circuit between the primary voltage source for the ignition coil and the coil stud. This helps to reduce the coil voltage and coil current, therefore with the addition of the same, the coil does not get as heated as it would without the same, thus increasing the life of the coil.

However, during the starting of the ignition engine, a high voltage equal to the primary voltage source is needed. Therefore a jumper wire is often connected with the ballast resistor. This jumper wire provides the necessary voltage to make the engine start.


Not arguing with you but just posting what I find.


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI [Re: NachoRT74] #2764870
04/16/20 11:23 PM
04/16/20 11:23 PM
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dvw Offline
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Originally Posted by NachoRT74
Originally Posted by dvw
Like I said. Tie the dk blue and brown together. That will provide you with battery voltage running and cranking. Nothing more. nothing less. The ballast purpose was never to protect the coil. It was to protect points or old ECUs. If Your ECU doesn't need a ballast it doesn't need diodes relays or anything else.
Doug


Wel, if you search for info about that you find stuff like this

Quote
How do Ballast Resistors Work?

The ignition system on a classic car is often far from perfect. Ideally, your coils would like to see a certain voltage to operate at peak performance. Your vehicle’s charging system may produce more voltage than it needs to power the coils. When your coils are overpowered, they tend to wear out, break, and require frequent replacement.


Quote
Ballast Resistor for Automotive Applications

The ballast resistors are often included in the ignition kit of automotive machines such as car engines. Due to its application, such devices are called Ignition Ballast Resistor. Use of this device reduces the risk of coil failure. It is installed in the circuit between the primary voltage source for the ignition coil and the coil stud. This helps to reduce the coil voltage and coil current, therefore with the addition of the same, the coil does not get as heated as it would without the same, thus increasing the life of the coil.

However, during the starting of the ignition engine, a high voltage equal to the primary voltage source is needed. Therefore a jumper wire is often connected with the ballast resistor. This jumper wire provides the necessary voltage to make the engine start.


Not arguing with you but just posting what I find.

Then can you explain why coils used on aftermarket fuel injection, MSD, and current production coils don't fail when they are run without a ballast resistor? A lot of incorrect information can be found on the internet. Many times hard to wade through it all to find fact. My background? 46 years in auto repair as a tech. Currently work at FCA engineering in the Electrical Lab debugging new vehicle prototype electrical issues. Do I know everything? Nope. But been doing this stuff a long time.
Doug

Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI [Re: dvw] #2764884
04/17/20 01:12 AM
04/17/20 01:12 AM
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Not all coils are the same. wink

A coil with a primary Ohm reading of 0.34 Ohm is wound different than a 1.4 Ohm coil. GM coils are about 0.7 Ohm and are required to have a resisror wire inline to the coil's positive lug.

If you run a 0.34 Ohm coil on a stock type ECM, the ECM is being required to switch that higher voltage and amperage and it will burn out the ECM. Yes the ECM always has 12 Volts all the time on the positive side and the Negative is connected directly to the coil. It is the negative side that will burn out in the ECM due to the excessive voltage through the coil. For a stock type ECM you need a total ohm thru the coil at about 1.9 to 2 Ohms (1.4 Ohm coil and a 0.5 Ohm OEM ballast resistor) .


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Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI [Re: dvw] #2764900
04/17/20 06:17 AM
04/17/20 06:17 AM
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As I said, I'm not arguing with you because I don't have the knowledgement to talk about that with all details, but just sharing what I have found. One of the quotes comes from pepboys website, so we could say is not a "fake" website¿?¿?¿?

And well, I have found coils labeled "no need to run with resistor" or something like that, so everything can be found around points out to the coil deal, including product itself. Maye just because the reason posted by Dave_J ?

I know some ign system like MSD don't make a constant feeding for to the coil. MSD modules handle both leads, so maybe it cuts the power while is not triggering on multisparking allowind to get, somehow" a cooling instant?

Dunno about RTR units thought.

I'm just thinking out loud and trying to learn.


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI [Re: NachoRT74] #2764925
04/17/20 09:01 AM
04/17/20 09:01 AM
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dvw Offline
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The resistance measurement of the coils makes sense. I stand corrected. So if someone was to chose there old style production coil with a newer style control unit they could have an issue. Or running a new style coil with points or older ECU could be an issue. I still see no need for diodes or relays when running a proper matched set up. Run a coil matched to the ECU being used and follow the recommendations for that system .
Doug

Re: Where to get 12V key on inc cranking for Holley Sniper EFI [Re: dvw] #2764926
04/17/20 09:03 AM
04/17/20 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by dvw


Then can you explain why coils used on aftermarket fuel injection, MSD, and current production coils don't fail when they are run without a ballast resistor? A lot of incorrect information can be found on the internet. Many times hard to wade through it all to find fact. My background? 46 years in auto repair as a tech. Currently work at FCA engineering in the Electrical Lab debugging new vehicle prototype electrical issues. Do I know everything? Nope. But been doing this stuff a long time.
Doug


If what you say you do is indeed fact, then you already know the answer to that question, or you damned well ought to.

But to ease your mind they all do the same thing, limit current thru the coil, the ballast resistor is an obvious component external to anything else. Your aftermarket fuel injection, MSD, and current production setups do it internally with current limiting circuits that you cannot see but it is there.

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