Re: 1978 440 Performance Upgrade ideas???
[Re: moparmatt]
#2751423
03/12/20 10:21 PM
03/12/20 10:21 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,499 God's Country Maryland
GODSCOUNTRY340
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Up the compression, easiest way is install a set of closed chambered heads (915 or 516). Edelbrock RPM intake, headers, 750 carb for starters.
I love the smell of Deer guts in the morning, it smells like... VICTORY!
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Re: 1978 440 Performance Upgrade ideas???
[Re: moparmatt]
#2751450
03/13/20 03:50 AM
03/13/20 03:50 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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The bigger difftween earliers and later engines is the compression rate. Factory lowered down with lower pistons. The correct way to bump up would be then get the correct pistons.
Then you can choose the camshaft, HP exhaust manifolds, windage tray, valve springs. But need to bump up the compression rate.
The cheaper and cost efective for this is KeithBlack pistons. They have two for 440, one flat top, and one with quench step. On $400 rate
You can also get closed heads as mentioned, but that could be more expensive than the pistons ( $1000 rate ), althought easier to bump out the compression rate and to work. If you can build the engine by yourself, the pistons will be cheaper and still the correct way. Since 69 all engines where open chamber heads, so you can live with the heads you have. Maybe mill down a bit will help a bit more. Get metallic headgaskets.
After get the pistons, you still can get closed chamber heads depending on which pistons you get and how they fit into the block, block height, headgasket used etc... but pistons first.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: 1978 440 Performance Upgrade ideas???
[Re: moparmatt]
#2751466
03/13/20 09:02 AM
03/13/20 09:02 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
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Benton, IL.
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Those engines were designed for a very different purpose that you want it for.
If the engine has the stock pistons, closed chamber iron heads won't help much. Stock pistons are .080" or more down in the hole. And that means that there is no way to get any quench at all so detonation is very likely. I have worked with these engines quite a few times. In fact, I still have a couple in the barn.
Improvements certainly can be made, but they detonate like heck with stock pistons so it usually takes a lot of trial and error to see what they can put up with. Optimal timing is impossible to get.
Do you have a budget or level of difficulty in mind? The better flow with new aluminum heads would help and would work with any future improvements, so that would be the first thing I would do. Then cam, intake, carb, and headers. In other words, the only desirable parts on the engine are the block, rods, and crank. Even the oil pan should be changed for more capacity.
twocents
Master, again and still
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Re: 1978 440 Performance Upgrade ideas???
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2751472
03/13/20 09:39 AM
03/13/20 09:39 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,669 Wichita
GY3
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If the engine is getting rebuilt anyway, put in pistons with a little better compression ratio. This is key to getting the engine up to its potential.
If the heads need a lot done to them (guides, valves, etc) then replace them with an aluminum "replacement" head like the E-street head or the Stealth. Much cheaper in the long run to buy these then rebuild 40 year-old cast iron heads. You'll also benefit from lighter weight and a little better flow.
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: 1978 440 Performance Upgrade ideas???
[Re: NachoRT74]
#2751482
03/13/20 10:01 AM
03/13/20 10:01 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095 Valencia, España
NachoRT74
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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KB got actually 3 pistons for 440 with stock stroke
KB184 which is pretty much stock CH with quench step. KB236 which is flat top and 0.065" higher CH KB237 which is quench step AND 0.055" higher CH
These are going on the cheap, casted but Hypereutectic on $400 rate... after these you can go Diamond, Ross etc... being forged on $600 rate
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: 1978 440 Performance Upgrade ideas???
[Re: dvw]
#2751780
03/14/20 10:09 AM
03/14/20 10:09 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,499 God's Country Maryland
GODSCOUNTRY340
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God's Country Maryland
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There was a dyno test on a low compression 440 that showed a 62 horsepower increase by adding 516 closed chambered heads. I can't remember where I found it but I wrote down their results. (pic)
I love the smell of Deer guts in the morning, it smells like... VICTORY!
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Re: 1978 440 Performance Upgrade ideas???
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2751785
03/14/20 10:18 AM
03/14/20 10:18 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819
Kirkland, Washington
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Those engines were designed for a very different purpose that you want it for.
If the engine has the stock pistons, closed chamber iron heads won't help much. Stock pistons are .080" or more down in the hole. And that means that there is no way to get any quench at all so detonation is very likely. I have worked with these engines quite a few times. In fact, I still have a couple in the barn.
Improvements certainly can be made, but they detonate like heck with stock pistons so it usually takes a lot of trial and error to see what they can put up with. Optimal timing is impossible to get.
Do you have a budget or level of difficulty in mind? The better flow with new aluminum heads would help and would work with any future improvements, so that would be the first thing I would do. Then cam, intake, carb, and headers. In other words, the only desirable parts on the engine are the block, rods, and crank. Even the oil pan should be changed for more capacity.
twocents Detonation with pistons .080 in the hole?
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Re: 1978 440 Performance Upgrade ideas???
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#2751981
03/14/20 07:50 PM
03/14/20 07:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028
Benton, IL.
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Those engines were designed for a very different purpose that you want it for.
If the engine has the stock pistons, closed chamber iron heads won't help much. Stock pistons are .080" or more down in the hole. And that means that there is no way to get any quench at all so detonation is very likely. I have worked with these engines quite a few times. In fact, I still have a couple in the barn.
Improvements certainly can be made, but they detonate like heck with stock pistons so it usually takes a lot of trial and error to see what they can put up with. Optimal timing is impossible to get.
Do you have a budget or level of difficulty in mind? The better flow with new aluminum heads would help and would work with any future improvements, so that would be the first thing I would do. Then cam, intake, carb, and headers. In other words, the only desirable parts on the engine are the block, rods, and crank. Even the oil pan should be changed for more capacity.
twocents Detonation with pistons .080 in the hole? Yep, big time. And no amount of octane will calm it down. Timing has to be backed off so much that it starts running hot, which makes it worse. Real balancing act trying to get the timing where it won't ping bad. Most of those motor home big blocks of that era rarely made it past 60k.
Master, again and still
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Re: 1978 440 Performance Upgrade ideas???
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2751993
03/14/20 08:38 PM
03/14/20 08:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819
Kirkland, Washington
|
Those engines were designed for a very different purpose that you want it for.
If the engine has the stock pistons, closed chamber iron heads won't help much. Stock pistons are .080" or more down in the hole. And that means that there is no way to get any quench at all so detonation is very likely. I have worked with these engines quite a few times. In fact, I still have a couple in the barn.
Improvements certainly can be made, but they detonate like heck with stock pistons so it usually takes a lot of trial and error to see what they can put up with. Optimal timing is impossible to get.
Do you have a budget or level of difficulty in mind? The better flow with new aluminum heads would help and would work with any future improvements, so that would be the first thing I would do. Then cam, intake, carb, and headers. In other words, the only desirable parts on the engine are the block, rods, and crank. Even the oil pan should be changed for more capacity.
twocents Detonation with pistons .080 in the hole? Yep, big time. And no amount of octane will calm it down. Timing has to be backed off so much that it starts running hot, which makes it worse. Real balancing act trying to get the timing where it won't ping bad. Most of those motor home big blocks of that era rarely made it past 60k. My experience with low compression motor home 440’s is very different from yours. Ran a 73 in a 70 Cuda, complete with 213 heads, two different cams, intakes, carbs and exhausts, and detonation was never a problem.
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Re: 1978 440 Performance Upgrade ideas???
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#2752005
03/14/20 09:33 PM
03/14/20 09:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028
Benton, IL.
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Would like some more? I have several in the barn, some with trannies. Virgin territory.
Master, again and still
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Re: 1978 440 Performance Upgrade ideas???
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2752021
03/14/20 11:02 PM
03/14/20 11:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,499 God's Country Maryland
GODSCOUNTRY340
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top fuel
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Posts: 2,499
God's Country Maryland
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I've got a 75 440 with factory smog pistons with 516 closed chamber heads, run 87 octane and have never heard even a hint of pinging and it's in a 1954 (heavy) flat fender 1 ton Power Wagon. Too much compression and advanced timing causes pinging (pre ignition).
I love the smell of Deer guts in the morning, it smells like... VICTORY!
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Re: 1978 440 Performance Upgrade ideas???
[Re: moparmatt]
#2752083
03/15/20 10:37 AM
03/15/20 10:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028
Benton, IL.
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Before you install that CarterBrock carb, consider the new Street Demon. Kind of an updated version of the Thermoquad. It is all I install now on stockish engines. It is the best out of the box carb for those applications that I have ever used. The CarterBrocks aren't a bad carb, but their calibrations really need an update. https://www.hotrod.com/articles/street-demon-750-carb-review/
Master, again and still
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