Re: Out dated helmets
[Re: jcc]
#2717949
11/20/19 10:40 PM
11/20/19 10:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,823 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,823
Kirkland, Washington
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W/r/t your life insurance finds out your safety equipment was in violation of posted rules...and they pin loss of life on it
This is quite possible, "contributory negligence" is claimed to reduce the award value. IMHO an insurance company is likely to use this as a bargaining chip, regardless of what actually happened, Sorry, this position doesn't hold water. Life insurance usually even pays in suicide, with certain restrictions, forget "contributory negligence", that's how most accidents happen anyway.. They don't give a crap how you kicked the bucket. However if its a mega policy, they might exclude car racing in the the terms. I was thinking the exact same thing. Life insurance would pay out, provided there isn’t a no racing clause. No way in hell they would drill down to out-of-compliance safety equip.
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Re: Out dated helmets
[Re: polyspheric]
#2717980
11/21/19 01:30 AM
11/21/19 01:30 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,684 W. Kentucky
justinp61
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,684
W. Kentucky
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W/r/t your life insurance finds out your safety equipment was in violation of posted rules...and they pin loss of life on it
This is quite possible, "contributory negligence" is claimed to reduce the award value. IMHO an insurance company is likely to use this as a bargaining chip, regardless of what actually happened, and let your lawyer argue that the accident was fatal regardless of helmet quality. The question of "is a helmet that expired yesterday more dangerous than one still legal?" will be fun to watch. These are frequently decided on this basis: "what engineering data and destructive test results were used to determine exactly when a helmet has decayed significantly? (exactly 730 days, not 729)". The surprising answers come back: 1. "we were told..." 2. "we just made it up, after that big donation from the helmet manufacturers" 3. "none ever actually failed from a crash, but we had to say something" 4. "we read about a helmet settlement in Kazakhstan in 1986 from a WW2 helmet, so we made it different"
Wasn't the best best money helmet can buy really helpful to Dale Earnhardt? The weight of the helmet actually contributed to his death. The sudden stop tried to yank his head off his neck. Just as it did Adam Petty, Clifford Allison and Kenny Irwin Jr. Without a Hans device probably all the drivers would've died regardless of what helmet they were wearing.
Last edited by justinp61; 11/21/19 01:31 AM.
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Re: Out dated helmets
[Re: justinp61]
#2718029
11/21/19 10:17 AM
11/21/19 10:17 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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W/r/t your life insurance finds out your safety equipment was in violation of posted rules...and they pin loss of life on it
This is quite possible, "contributory negligence" is claimed to reduce the award value. IMHO an insurance company is likely to use this as a bargaining chip, regardless of what actually happened, and let your lawyer argue that the accident was fatal regardless of helmet quality. The question of "is a helmet that expired yesterday more dangerous than one still legal?" will be fun to watch. These are frequently decided on this basis: "what engineering data and destructive test results were used to determine exactly when a helmet has decayed significantly? (exactly 730 days, not 729)". The surprising answers come back: 1. "we were told..." 2. "we just made it up, after that big donation from the helmet manufacturers" 3. "none ever actually failed from a crash, but we had to say something" 4. "we read about a helmet settlement in Kazakhstan in 1986 from a WW2 helmet, so we made it different"
Wasn't the best best money helmet can buy really helpful to Dale Earnhardt? The weight of the helmet actually contributed to his death. The sudden stop tried to yank his head off his neck. Just as it did Adam Petty, Clifford Allison and Kenny Irwin Jr. Without a Hans device probably all the drivers would've died regardless of what helmet they were wearing. I also believe the lack of a full face helmet played a significant role in his death, Dale being the only driver in the race wearing an open face, to the consternation of Nascar, and it's nuanced IMO his face struck the steering wheel, something a HANS would have mitigated. This is also why I believe, the first person's reaction to Dale's wrecked car understood the obvious seriousness of Dale's injuries, and why autopsy photos were so diligently guarded. NASCAR no longer allowed open face helmets on the track.
Last edited by jcc; 11/21/19 10:17 AM.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Out dated helmets
[Re: jcc]
#2718041
11/21/19 11:03 AM
11/21/19 11:03 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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Sorry, this position doesn't hold water.
Are you kidding? It's not life insurance or suicide. I sat on a Nassau County civil jury in which the judge explained contributory negligence "can be from 0 to 100%".
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Out dated helmets
[Re: jcc]
#2718058
11/21/19 12:00 PM
11/21/19 12:00 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,684 W. Kentucky
justinp61
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,684
W. Kentucky
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I also believe the lack of a full face helmet played a significant role in his death, Dale being the only driver in the race wearing an open face, to the consternation of Nascar, and it's nuanced IMO his face struck the steering wheel, something a HANS would have mitigated. This is also why I believe, the first person's reaction to Dale's wrecked car understood the obvious seriousness of Dale's injuries, and why autopsy photos were so diligently guarded.
NASCAR no longer allowed open face helmets on the track.
I agree. We were at that race and I watched through binoculars Kenny Schrader's reaction. I told my cousin that it must be bad. Later in an interview Kenny commented that "a person should never have to see a friend like that". What got me was nascars reaction, it took the death of their star to get a reaction. It's like the deaths of the three young drivers from the same type of injury was only a minor inconvenience to them. That was the end for nascar with me.
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Re: Out dated helmets
[Re: polyspheric]
#2718065
11/21/19 12:18 PM
11/21/19 12:18 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,564 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,564
Fulton County, PA
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Haven't paid much attention to it in a while - except for when I Googled "race car drivers and life insurance" when I went looking for actual facts - but for the last life insurance policy I applied for, one of the first questions was "Do you participate in hazardous activities like sky diving, or driving race cars?". Policies are not all the same. The more you're worth dead, the more they pay attention. Read the fine print.
My suggestion to anyone questioning the value and/or motivation for the emphasis on being as up to date as possible on safety equipment - message Alan Prusiensky, John or Brittany Force (or any of the people who leveled one in a Funny Car this year), John Medlin, Stevie "Fast", Steve Torrance, Sidnei Frigo or any of the other people who have had real experience with ferocious crashes recently and walked away with minor or no injuries. Ask them their opinion, based on their first hand knowledge.
Or not.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Out dated helmets
[Re: polyspheric]
#2718094
11/21/19 01:47 PM
11/21/19 01:47 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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Sorry, this position doesn't hold water.
Are you kidding? It's not life insurance or suicide. I sat on a Nassau County civil jury in which the judge explained contributory negligence "can be from 0 to 100%". I have no idea what you are referring to. A life insurance policy is a contract, and unless its clearly stipulated the insured has a responsibility for any required behavior, the only requirement for a full benefit payment is proof of death, period, doesn't matter one iota how stupid the insured actions were. And I'm drowning here.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Out dated helmets
[Re: jcc]
#2718100
11/21/19 02:09 PM
11/21/19 02:09 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174
PA.
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All I can add here is years ago I had a Prudential Life insurance policy. My agent knew I raced so there was a rider added to my policy and a small monthly fee so I was covered on and off the track. I cashed in that policy years ago needing the money while going through my divorce
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Out dated helmets
[Re: jcc]
#2718166
11/21/19 06:14 PM
11/21/19 06:14 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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Racing deaths are not suicide, and the policy in question is not his life insurance - it's the cost to the track and other drivers. Your life insurance may cover you for a racing death - and that has the following effect on other participants: none whatever.
"No suicide for 2 years" was the rule in life insurance policies for over 100 years. You agreed to it when you paid the premium; no, you can't cross it out and initial it. No one who killed himself with wet ink on the new policy received money. My source: Metropolitan Life Insurance Company employed my grandfather, my father, and me beginning around 1930. I was employed as a Senior Court Clerk by the Supreme Court of New York County, Civil Term, after that.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Out dated helmets
[Re: sgcuda]
#2718167
11/21/19 06:19 PM
11/21/19 06:19 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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Check which statement you THINK I made, but did not: 1. "I won't wear a helmet, and you shouldn't either" 2. "all safety rules are dumb"
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Out dated helmets
[Re: jcc]
#2718177
11/21/19 06:52 PM
11/21/19 06:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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... the interior padding/foam started to .disintegrate
I watched that happen to two of my old Arai motocross helmets while they sat on a shelf for years. They don't last forever, much as I wish they did. When they get past being safe, display them or trash them.
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Re: Out dated helmets
[Re: polyspheric]
#2718178
11/21/19 06:52 PM
11/21/19 06:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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Racing deaths are not suicide, and the policy in question is not his life insurance - it's the cost to the track and other drivers. Your life insurance may cover you for a racing death - and that has the following effect on other participants: none whatever.
"No suicide for 2 years" was the rule in life insurance policies for over 100 years. You agreed to it when you paid the premium; no, you can't cross it out and initial it. No one who killed himself with wet ink on the new policy received money. My source: Metropolitan Life Insurance Company employed my grandfather, my father, and me beginning around 1930. I was employed as a Senior Court Clerk by the Supreme Court of New York County, Civil Term, after that. Tour statements seem to be in conflict: " W/r/t your life insurance finds out your safety equipment was in violation of posted rules...and they pin loss of life on itThis is quite possible, "contributory negligence" is claimed to reduce the award value." This last posting of yours only restates what I mentioned a number of replies ago for the discerning reader.. Let me recap succinctly: 1. Accidents/deaths at the track effect all racers, partly thru increased insurance costs of the operators. 2. life insurance benefit award for at the track incidents are not directly effected negatively in anyway by "contributory negligence" pf the deceased. 3. Its hard to justify "contributory negligence" as a life insurance benefit reduction factor, IF for example say almost universally ,suicide is no a reduction factor, as I already clearly noted, but there are often certain restrictions regarding suicide on life insurance ( 2 yr initial exclusion being the most common). 4. Life Insurance is a contract, subject to its terms, that both parties agree to in advance.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Out dated helmets
[Re: sgcuda]
#2718678
11/23/19 03:46 PM
11/23/19 03:46 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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W/r/t insurance: During my decades in Supreme Court, I spent many humorous hours reading the most recent Appellate decisions (where you go when the State Supreme Court is wrong). A large percentage of these share a concept: the 2 parties who signed the contract had very different opinions as to what they were required to do, etc. It is the insurance company's legal fiduciary duty to deny all claims. Yes, really - until or unless the Judge or jury makes them. The default position is OMDB..
The author of a good contract (I sold some with [insert Party 3 here] fields for DIY legal separations, child support mods, waivers, releases, renouncement of surviving spouse's right to elect against the decedent's will) earns his fee from Part 1 by crafting language that appears to grant concessions to Party 2 - but: 1. does not 2. requires impossible standard of proof 3. waives or delays performance as to Party 1
If anyone ere believes that there is some form of "Court of Last Resort", whose intellectual brilliance and ultimate competence can and does correct any & all outrages, insults, etc? Explain "Kelo", "Citizens United", "Roe v. Wade", "Batson", and "Dual Sovereignty".
Waiting for the penny to drop: the NY "look back provision".
Let me summarize: in motion practice, any form of moral rectitude, consciousness of error, etc. are fatal handicaps.
Boffin Emeritus
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