Re: big block oil pump question
[Re: gregcharger72]
#2643704
04/10/19 02:51 PM
04/10/19 02:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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Fwiw...... for what the OP is doing with the motor, I would have used the HV pump from the start.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: big block oil pump question
[Re: mopar dave]
#2643750
04/10/19 06:03 PM
04/10/19 06:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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... I think these Milodon pumps are a much better pump than the Melling IMO. Milodon claims their design takes less energy to turn compared to stock-type pumps. I got sticker shock when I saw that the main body of the Milodon oil pump is about $200, and it doesn't even come with a cover. Somewhere, and I can't recall where, a guy claimed the Milodon pump was worth something like 8-10 HP while creating the same pressure as an OEM-type pump. Wish I could have found more details to see if it was a legit test.
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Re: big block oil pump question
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2643779
04/10/19 07:49 PM
04/10/19 07:49 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 614 Michigan
Get-X
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 614
Michigan
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Fwiw...... for what the OP is doing with the motor, I would have used the HV pump from the start. I use a HV pump on anything other than stock pan engines. They have a tendency to run stock pans dry, which is never good
'65 Belvedere '68 GTX '57 Dodge pickup
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Re: big block oil pump question
[Re: Get-X]
#2643840
04/10/19 08:50 PM
04/10/19 08:50 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,195 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
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Bend,OR USA
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Fwiw...... for what the OP is doing with the motor, I would have used the HV pump from the start. I use a HV pump on anything other than stock pan engines. They have a tendency to run stock pans dry, which is never good I've heard this many times and as long as I verified that the pickup was within 3/16 from the bottom of the oil pan(through the drain plugs) on stock OEM 4,5 and 6 quart stock pans I never saw that happen I have seen it happen on a motor with a 7.5 quart deep sump pan that the owner used the "correct' pickup that came with the pan that was right at 1.5 inches up from the bottom the oil pan It would loose oil pressure at the end of a 1/4 mile run when he let off Murphy lurks waiting to mess with us car guys, especially drag racers
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: big block oil pump question
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2643867
04/10/19 09:44 PM
04/10/19 09:44 PM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 112 pa
gregcharger72
OP
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OP
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Joined: Jul 2009
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just looking for a response from someone with experience using or trying a standard type pump. btw the machine shop told me to run it with the standard pump and see what i have. that makes me uncomfortable. When in doubt, change it out That is my motto now, I hate it when some part fails that I had doubts about using That is good advice.
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Re: big block oil pump question
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2643904
04/10/19 11:55 PM
04/10/19 11:55 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 614 Michigan
Get-X
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 614
Michigan
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Fwiw...... for what the OP is doing with the motor, I would have used the HV pump from the start. I use a HV pump on anything other than stock pan engines. They have a tendency to run stock pans dry, which is never good I've heard this many times and as long as I verified that the pickup was within 3/16 from the bottom of the oil pan(through the drain plugs) on stock OEM 4,5 and 6 quart stock pans I never saw that happen I have seen it happen on a motor with a 7.5 quart deep sump pan that the owner used the "correct' pickup that came with the pan that was right at 1.5 inches up from the bottom the oil pan It would loose oil pressure at the end of a 1/4 mile run when he let off Murphy lurks waiting to mess with us car guys, especially drag racers I had it happen in two of my cars. I had a '69 383 RR that I installed a HV pump on and I also had a similar problem on my GTX. Both had stock pans and pick-ups, and both stopped having the problem when I overfilled the oil. I swapped out the pump on the GTX and no more problem. I ended up selling the RR and just ran it with extra oil until the new owner picked it up. In the interest of full disclosure, I never checked either pick-up to pan clearance to know where they were at? Maybe I'm just unlucky, LOL!
'65 Belvedere '68 GTX '57 Dodge pickup
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Re: big block oil pump question
[Re: AndyF]
#2643905
04/11/19 12:02 AM
04/11/19 12:02 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587 Great Neck,LI,new york
hemi-itis
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Great Neck,LI,new york
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You changed the design of the oil system when you added the EDM lifters so now you have to play oil pump engineer to get the system back in balance. Engine builders do this all the time. Pushrod oiling, bushed lifter bores, wide bearing clearances, etc. all change how the oiling system works. The more internal leaks in the engine then the more volume you need to pump. The problem with the HV pump is that sometimes it is too much volume so then you have to use a softer spring to blow off the volume inside the pump.
If you can access the relief spring with the engine in the car then go ahead and run it with the HV pump and see where you are at for oil pressure both hot and cold. If the high pressure is too high then you can change back to the softer spring. I mix and match springs and pumps all the time to get the correct combination for the engine. I use a little fixture to measure the spring force so I know which one to use. Milodon makes an externally adjusable OP spring cover. https://www.summitracing.com/search...nally-adjustable-oil-pressure-regulators
HEMI-ITIS has no cure. My condition is fully BLOWN!!
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Re: big block oil pump question...Udate Results
[Re: gregcharger72]
#2644933
04/14/19 08:43 AM
04/14/19 08:43 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916 usa
lewtot184
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master
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usa
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I got the engine running. My hot oil pressure is less than 10 lbs. at 1500 rpm. Pressure is 20 psi at 3000 rpm. I changed the oil to a 10w 30 and the pressure rose about 5 psi hot. Evidently I have an internal oil leak. But am at a loss where it might be or how to find it. Looking for suggestions or how to proceed. I have oil flow out of the rockers both sides and it doesn't appear to be foamy or have bubbles in it. I'm going to remove the intake today to look at the cam / valvetrain I would look for missing or loose plugs behind the timing cover.
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Re: big block oil pump question...Udate Results
[Re: gregcharger72]
#2644935
04/14/19 08:49 AM
04/14/19 08:49 AM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,489 northern,Ohio,USA
Clanton
master
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master
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,489
northern,Ohio,USA
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I got the engine running. My hot oil pressure is less than 10 lbs. at 1500 rpm. Pressure is 20 psi at 3000 rpm. I changed the oil to a 10w 30 and the pressure rose about 5 psi hot. Evidently I have an internal oil leak. But am at a loss where it might be or how to find it. Looking for suggestions or how to proceed. I have oil flow out of the rockers both sides and it doesn't appear to be foamy or have bubbles in it. I'm going to remove the intake today to look at the cam / valvetrain Take out all but .010 gap from the rocker side play and use a mig tip drilled to size for oil restriction in the rockers in the rocker stand.,open the valley and prime with a drill the oil pump and see where you think too much oil is flowing.
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Re: big block oil pump question... updated w results
[Re: gregcharger72]
#2644942
04/14/19 09:19 AM
04/14/19 09:19 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
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master
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New York
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W/r/t "draining the pan": How did you distinguish between: 1. no oil in the pan, and 2. plenty of oil but doesn't cover the pickup at that moment
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: big block oil pump question...Udate Results
[Re: lewtot184]
#2645082
04/14/19 04:58 PM
04/14/19 04:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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I can’t imagine it having any oil pressure to speak of if a plug were missing. And one would need to be really loose........ like ready to fall out before I think it would have that much affect on the pressure.
If you’re still employing the factory style through-the-cam top end oiling, I don’t see how the oiling to the top end could be the problem.
To me, that leaves a restricted or loose oil pump pick up, a restriction coming out of the pump into the block, a restriction in the pass side oil gallery........ or excessive bearing clearances somewhere.
Hopefully priming with the intake off will reveal something.
I just had a 360 on the dyno the other day. It has edm lifters, pushrods with holes on both ends, and rockers than can be used as pushrod oiled. It also retains the factory through-the-cam oiling(double oiling to the top)......... and plenty of side clearance between the rocker pairs.
Stock replacement type pan....... after several back to back pulls the oil pressure was still 30psi@1000 rpm. About 65psi@6500 with Driven BR 15/50.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: big block oil pump question...Udate Results
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2645086
04/14/19 05:30 PM
04/14/19 05:30 PM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 112 pa
gregcharger72
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OP
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I can’t imagine it having any oil pressure to speak of if a plug were missing. And one would need to be really loose........ like ready to fall out before I think it would have that much affect on the pressure.
If you’re still employing the factory style through-the-cam top end oiling, I don’t see how the oiling to the top end could be the problem.
To me, that leaves a restricted or loose oil pump pick up, a restriction coming out of the pump into the block, a restriction in the pass side oil gallery........ or excessive bearing clearances somewhere.
Hopefully priming with the intake off will reveal something.
I just had a 360 on the dyno the other day. It has edm lifters, pushrods with holes on both ends, and rockers than can be used as pushrod oiled. It also retains the factory through-the-cam oiling(double oiling to the top)......... and plenty of side clearance between the rocker pairs.
Stock replacement type pan....... after several back to back pulls the oil pressure was still 30psi@1000 rpm. About 65psi@6500 with Driven BR 15/50. Thanks for your input that makes sense to me. I took the rocker assy's off and the passenger side rockers are black where they ride on the shaft the driver side is not. This seems odd because the driver side is down the line in the oil flow path. I'm going to pull the engine to check the pick up and engine bearings . I most likely will need to start over the build as the engine oil does not look good, it is black after only 15 min of running.... The lesson learned is ....if something doesn't seem right investigate till it does even if the machine shop tells you to" run it " . This is turning out to be a very expensive 440!
Last edited by gregcharger72; 04/14/19 05:36 PM.
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Re: big block oil pump question...Udate Results
[Re: gregcharger72]
#2645089
04/14/19 05:40 PM
04/14/19 05:40 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,195 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,195
Bend,OR USA
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Last edited by Cab_Burge; 04/14/19 05:41 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: big block oil pump question...Udate Results
[Re: gregcharger72]
#2645092
04/14/19 05:52 PM
04/14/19 05:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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Both sides are fed by the oil going to the #4 cam journal, and through the cam when the holes in the cam line up with the holes in the bearing. Both sides are at the same point in the flow path.
There would have to be a restriction to the feed on the one side to not have equal oiling to the top end.
My thought at this point is....... the #4 cam bearing is toast(as well as maybe a couple more), and may have wadded up some babbitt and stuffed it in the feed holes going to the top...... and the one side is essentially blocked off.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: big block oil pump question... updated w results
[Re: gregcharger72]
#2645104
04/14/19 06:54 PM
04/14/19 06:54 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,113 Byron, NY
W.I.N. Racing
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,113
Byron, NY
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The best oil pressure you are going to get with a drill motor will depend on the rated HP of the drill motor. A "Good" HV oil pump (for a BB MOPAR) will flow just under 20GPM/min,. To generate 40 psi with a 95% efficient pump you will need at least .5HP - 60psi will require .75HP. Now if the pump become less efficient (75%) you will need 1HP to generate 60psi. All that being said looks like your in the ball park.( this is a simplified explanation without corrections for oil viscosity differences but gets the point across)
'01 P1500, Blown/Inj BAE,/Veney ,Bruno/CS2,Dana 60 '01 Dodge 3500 S Cummins Auto, Fresh air kit, 4" Exhaust, '05 Dodge Magnum R/T - Too Much to list '60 Willys CJ5 '01 International LPX - Project,DT466, Allison '64 Plymouth Valiant, Inj 528 Hemi, 2spd
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Re: big block oil pump question...Udate Results
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2645134
04/14/19 08:17 PM
04/14/19 08:17 PM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 112 pa
gregcharger72
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Both sides are fed by the oil going to the #4 cam journal, and through the cam when the holes in the cam line up with the holes in the bearing. Both sides are at the same point in the flow path.
There would have to be a restriction to the feed on the one side to not have equal oiling to the top end.
My thought at this point is....... the #4 cam bearing is toast(as well as maybe a couple more), and may have wadded up some babbitt and stuffed it in the feed holes going to the top...... and the one side is essentially blocked off. I did find some bearing material [ that is what it looks like] in the oil on the pass sde head. I guess i'll find out when i get it apart.. thank you for your help! Would or can an incorrectly installed cam bearing cause low oil pressure?
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Re: big block oil pump question...Udate Results
[Re: gregcharger72]
#2645166
04/14/19 09:12 PM
04/14/19 09:12 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,489 northern,Ohio,USA
Clanton
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master
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,489
northern,Ohio,USA
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Both sides are fed by the oil going to the #4 cam journal, and through the cam when the holes in the cam line up with the holes in the bearing. Both sides are at the same point in the flow path.
There would have to be a restriction to the feed on the one side to not have equal oiling to the top end.
My thought at this point is....... the #4 cam bearing is toast(as well as maybe a couple more), and may have wadded up some babbitt and stuffed it in the feed holes going to the top...... and the one side is essentially blocked off. I did find some bearing material [ that is what it looks like] in the oil on the pass sde head. I guess i'll find out when i get it apart.. thank you for your help! Would or can an incorrectly installed cam bearing cause low oil pressure? You could check to be sure the gage works and prime the engine with the port open with some rags over it. You could us an air gun to test the oil to the head port as long as you have rockers off.
Last edited by Clanton; 04/14/19 09:15 PM.
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Re: big block oil pump question...Udate Results
[Re: gregcharger72]
#2645337
04/15/19 11:28 AM
04/15/19 11:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,041 Oregon
AndyF
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Oregon
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Both sides are fed by the oil going to the #4 cam journal, and through the cam when the holes in the cam line up with the holes in the bearing. Both sides are at the same point in the flow path.
There would have to be a restriction to the feed on the one side to not have equal oiling to the top end.
My thought at this point is....... the #4 cam bearing is toast(as well as maybe a couple more), and may have wadded up some babbitt and stuffed it in the feed holes going to the top...... and the one side is essentially blocked off. I did find some bearing material [ that is what it looks like] in the oil on the pass sde head. I guess i'll find out when i get it apart.. thank you for your help! Would or can an incorrectly installed cam bearing cause low oil pressure? Sounds like something went wrong but I don't have any good guesses at this point. Perhaps some sort of assembly mistake. We had a 427 Ford in the shop a few years back that would lose oil pressure when it was warm. Nobody could figure it out so the engine was stripped down to the bare block. Turns out there was an internal crack in the block which opened up a bit as the block got hot. Hadn't seen that one before.
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