big block oil pump question... updated w results

I've put together a new 440 build and i'm at the point of priming the oil system. the machine shop supplied a standard volume oil pump[ Melling , m-63] .
I,m using driven brand 5w30 break in oil. Using a 1/2 inch electric drill i can only get 40 psi of oil pressure. The crank main bearing clearance is .0027, rod bearing .0024 .it is a solid flat tappet cam with EDM lifters , Hughes engine brand 1.6 roller rockers and 240 trick flow heads. I have oil flow out of the rocker arm assemblies as i rotate the crank. So my question is ... Is this normal / typical pressure with a standard pump ? I have always used a hv pump in the past with 60 psi or better when priming the oil system.

Drill speed makes a big difference. A HV pump has more oil sooner,so higher oil pressure at lower RPM's.

Run it and see what you have but I'd bet your hot idle PSI will still be 40-45.

1/2" drills typically turn pretty slow, take the RPM of your drill and divide it in half. Probably lower than the engine will ever idle.

i would struggle on my street car block to get 50 psi when it was cold & by the time it was hot it was just under 10 psi at idle. that was with 10/40 synthetic oil & a HV pump with external static pickup. I bought one of those DIY lifter bushing kits & now its 70 psi cold & 20 psi hot at idle. I'm a firm believer in those kits now, would never run a stock block without this mod.

A quick check would be to use a 3/8 drill motor.. I have the same issues
with EDM lifters.. at rpm I can only get 50psi and it doesnt matter
what RPM.. it runs fine but doent get higher psi.. I have tried both
the standard pump and HV with no change.. I still believe its the
EDM lifters.. this is a SB but I'm sure that BB and SB are the same

Keep in mind that the cam turns half the speed of the crank. A 1/2 drill speed would be around 600 rpm meaning the crank would be turning 300 to achieve that. Not anywhere close to idle speed. I think the pressure you're getting is fine. I only get 25 psi when I prime mine

i did look into the drill motor rating and it is 3000 rpm. i doubt it is turning that fast loaded by the oil pump but even at half that rating say, 1500 rpm , that is 3000 rpm engine speed. and to only 40 psi with cold oil concerns me. just looking for a response from someone with experience using or trying a standard type pump. btw the machine shop told me to run it with the standard pump and see what i have. that makes me uncomfortable.

When in doubt, change it out
That is my motto now, I hate it when some part fails that I had doubts about using

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. That drill isn't turning the oil pump at 1500 RPM's. If it was, that's a 750 RPM idle and that's lower than I let anything idle with other than stock springs.

You will never duplicate with a drill and a static engine what happens dynamically when the engine is running.

Run it. I think pull be surprised.

On mine I can usually achieve 70psi with a speed handle/hand tools, with a drill between 70 and 75.
But I have not used a std volume pump since around 1990.
What you have does seem pretty close for what it is.

HV pump will not change the readings. It only give more volume not pressure. barton uses standard pumps on the s/s hemi's.
fire it up and then see what you have.

Or
You can use your brain. If the engine is on the stand, go into the back of the block oil galley on the driver side and block it off. If your pressure goes up it is the lifters bleeding by. We used to block them off all the time and they ran fine. EDM lifters on most engines creates more problems than it solves. You could also just swap out the EDM lifters for regular ones for testing purposes and see what happens. Check the lifter bores for excess clearance while you are it/
Todd

It’s been awhile since I’ve tinkered with big blocks and I never really had an issues but don’t they offer a heavier spring for the oil pumps and haven’t guys shimmed their spring to raise pressure some. I know 440source offers an adjustable one.

I'd swap a HV pump on there and see what happens. My guess is that you have an internal leak so the standard pump just isn't building a lot of pressure. Could be the EDM lifters or it could be something else. This is a good reason to do the prime and oil pressure test before you put the intake manifold on. You could also put a high pressure spring in your standard pump. That may or may not work but it is cheap and easy. If you need more volume then the heavier spring won't fix it but it will fix the problem if your existing spring is softer than normal. For a really cheap and easy solution just slide a couple of washers behind the spring that you have right now and see what happens. A lot of times I'll use a standard spring with a shim or two rather than step up to the heavy spring. I keep a selection of springs and pumps on hand so I can tune the oil pressure on each engine I build. Sometimes I use a standard pump with a heavy spring, sometimes a HV pump with a soft spring. Sometimes some other combination.

More volume into the same restriction will increase the pressure so a HV pump will most likely increase the pressure in his engine. The only time a HV pump wouldn't increase the pressure for the OP's engine is if his current relief spring is set at 40 lbs. That seems unlikely but it could be the case. If he has a HV pump and swaps it on there I bet his pressure goes to 60+ psi.

If the drill is running the pump at 1500 rpm then that is the same as the engine running at 3000 rpm. The pump runs at cam speed or 1/2 of crank speed. In that case, 40 psi at 3000 rpm is pretty low. Having said that, I don't know what speed his drill is actually running at but 40 psi for cold oil is pretty low. I can usually get more than that with a speed wrench.

The drill speed when loaded by oil pressure is nowhere near idle speed, if the drill does not slow down the pump is not engaged or not primed.
I think you're OK but would use 5W40 after a few miles.

I had an adjustable one one one of my pumps that I picked up

I'd get it running and see what pressure it runs at warm (at your intended RPM limit). If you are going to beat on it I like to see 60-70 at 7000. If its low try adding a shim behind the relief valve spring. If that doesn't do it then swap the pump. its no big deal. Idle pressure really doesn't matter.
Doug

I don't have a problem with that advice as long as the pump is easy to get to in his car. If the pump isn't easy to get to in the car then I'd swap to the HV pump now. If it is easy to replace in the car then nothing wrong with running the engine and seeing what it does. Adding a shim won't help if the problem is too little volume. If the internal leaks are bigger than the pump can handle then the bypass could be shimmed shut and it still won't build pressure. So if it is a volume thing due to the EDM lifters he'll need the HV pump. Since nobody knows what the root problem is the OP will just need to experiment.

Update..... So, I took the hv pump off the engine I'm replacing , cleaned and inspected it , then put it on the new engine. Same drill motor, same oil,and the pressure is now is just over 60 psi.
Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.
Changing the pump in the car will be a PITA .I would have to lift the engine to remove it . Would be nice to resolve this issue with the engine out of the car.

Glad you got it fixed.
The 440 stroker we are building is going to use a standard volume pump. I pulled the pump apart to clean it and it was full of metal shavings!
The pump was on an engine the guy bought, but never ran. Looks like a new pump, no scratches inside, and all the metal shavings looked like they were just in the intake port of the pump?
I really looks like the metal was from the pump manufacture, and not the engine? Anyhow, Glad I decided to check it out before using it.

Yeah that doesn't surprise me. Sounds like you're leaking some oil inside the engine so you need the HV pump in order to build pressure. It could be the EDM lifters or it could be the lifter bores or it could be something else. You can find it if you take the time to look for it or just run the engine with the HV pump and see how it works.

That is good news. Do you prefer the number you got with the HV pump?
If it were mine, I would prefer the bigger number.

The only reason I have stuck with hv pumps is...more pressure at idle.
Although I don't feel the engine "needs" it, it's a peace of mind thing.

If you get a chance to prime it with the intake off, even years from now (let's say you decide to try a different manifold later or whatever),
it might be interesting to see what's happening there.

I've found not all lifters are the same size, many are smaller than they should be and they leak.
Sometimes the leak is not 100% negative, for instance when you've got rollers oiled by splash it could be helpful.

The trouble is without running it warm we have no idea what the upper rpm pressure will be. What if you end up with 100psi or more?
What body style is it that you can't pull the pump?
Doug

I,m better with 60 psi than 40 . I,m going to install the engine this weekend with the hv pump and see where I,m at with it when it gets hot. If the pressure is excessive I,ll change back to the standard pump. I,ll update the post with the results. Something i noticed when priming that i didn't give much thought to at the time was how much oil comes out of that tiny hole in the bottom of the lifter. This is the first time I've used EDM lifters.

The car is a 72 charger , with the hv pump I have to lift up the engine about a half inch to get the pump to clear the k member.

HONESTLY.....you've got enough pressure to lube the engine. Start it and see what it has ?

BUT, my engine on a stand has 75lbs with a 3/8 drill. Its an Indy alum block. my lifters are hardlined from the back of the block and are pushrod oiling. I use a HV pump. Don't forget that you created another oil leak with the edm lifters. That's why id fire it and see. Plenty of engines are fine with the oil pressure you have. Also, you can switch to a heaiver weight oil, but id fire it first and see.
Also im assuming you using a steel rod so I don't think it will go down that much when warm.

Sorry, now I see that all these things have been addressed....

Just want to add how good these Melling HV pumps are, ive been using the same one for almost 20 years now...and it was at BES and all they did was clean it and use it again !

standard pump uses a 45psi relief spring. that driven stuff is pretty thin.

You probably have plenty of pressure. You really only need 10 psi per 1000rpm, (and that's way more than you need). Any more than that is just costing you hp and working the intermediate shaft harder than needed. I d run it and see where you're at, if you HAVE to have more pressure you can shim the spring.

Will you be able to access the relief valve when the engine is in the car? If not you might want to change springs now. Use the soft spring from the standard pump and put a couple of small washers behind it. That should give you 60 psi at speed. With the engine on the stand you can play with the spring and the shims to see how they vary.

i have a spare engine on the stand that uses a stock pump and has 10-30 driven oil in it. it does about 50psi spinning the pump about 900rpm. this is with stock half groove mains and stock bearing clearances. I also have another stock 440 I drive and it does about 50psi with 10-30 rotella and 180f temps.

A HV pump really dosent increase pressure That why its high volume.It just pumps more.Want more pressure get the spring kit.My 440 runs 60 minimum hot with HV HP spring.Been running since I put it in like 20 years ago.When my son had the 62 300 with 40K original miles we installed the same setup.Ran minimium 45 to 50 hot all the time.That ran like 15 years and never a problem even with the OE 62 drive.Rocky

Yes, i can get to the relief spring fairly easy with the engine in the car. Ultimately what is the ideal oil pressure I'm looking for? The car will be drag raced the goal is high 10's range . i didn't realize it would be trial and error setting the engine oil pressure.

It's not really trial and error, it's just relatively easy to access and tweak on anytime you want, so we get kind of spoiled by that design feature.

A HV pump generally comes with the high pressure spring in it. Either worst, or best of both worlds depending on how you look at it.

I have an M63HV still in service from around 1988....

You changed the design of the oil system when you added the EDM lifters so now you have to play oil pump engineer to get the system back in balance. Engine builders do this all the time. Pushrod oiling, bushed lifter bores, wide bearing clearances, etc. all change how the oiling system works. The more internal leaks in the engine then the more volume you need to pump. The problem with the HV pump is that sometimes it is too much volume so then you have to use a softer spring to blow off the volume inside the pump.

If you can access the relief spring with the engine in the car then go ahead and run it with the HV pump and see where you are at for oil pressure both hot and cold. If the high pressure is too high then you can change back to the softer spring. I mix and match springs and pumps all the time to get the correct combination for the engine. I use a little fixture to measure the spring force so I know which one to use.

I use a plate to measure the oil pressure on my stuff.. its a block
off plate with a pressure gauge.. most of my SB pumps have a blow
off point of 70#

Sure it does....if lack of volume with a stock pump is the cause of low pressure.

Sounds like plenty of pressure to fire it up and see what you really have when hot. Someone posted here last week that nascar engines have 30-35 psi oil pressure going around the track. I believe oil flow is more important than pressure. If that's true, then you will have plenty of pressure.
I use a Milodon oil pump I bought from Andy on my 511. I have 75# cold and 35# at idle hot and that is with .033 main .028 rod bearing clearance and using 15/50 Amsoil. Awesome pump.

Run the oil pressure that low with the Chrysler oiling system and it will live about 5 minutes. You can't compare what NASCAR is doing with stock block stuff.

I shoot for 10 Lb. per 1000 RPM, IE 65 Lb. at 6500 RPM with hot oil
I now use 5W20WT on all my street and strip engines and I have seen 18 Lb. at 850 RPM with the oil temps at or above 180 F, 40 Lb. at 1200 RPM when revved up a little and it still had 65 Lb. at or above 6500 RPM

Fwiw...... for what the OP is doing with the motor, I would have used the HV pump from the start.

I think I might try something lighter as well, like 10/40 . My pressure holds 65# hot from 1500- 7000rpm red line using 15/50. I think these Milodon pumps are a much better pump than the Melling IMO. I use the EDM lifter per Dwayne to try and prevent flat lobes as well.

Milodon claims their design takes less energy to turn compared to stock-type pumps. I got sticker shock when I saw that the main body of the Milodon oil pump is about $200, and it doesn't even come with a cover.

Somewhere, and I can't recall where, a guy claimed the Milodon pump was worth something like 8-10 HP while creating the same pressure as an OEM-type pump. Wish I could have found more details to see if it was a legit test.

I use a HV pump on anything other than stock pan engines. They have a tendency to run stock pans dry, which is never good

I've heard this many times and as long as I verified that the pickup was within 3/16 from the bottom of the oil pan(through the drain plugs) on stock OEM 4,5 and 6 quart stock pans I never saw that happen
I have seen it happen on a motor with a 7.5 quart deep sump pan that the owner used the "correct' pickup that came with the pan that was right at 1.5 inches up from the bottom the oil pan It would loose oil pressure at the end of a 1/4 mile run when he let off
Murphy lurks waiting to mess with us car guys, especially drag racers

That is good advice.

I had it happen in two of my cars. I had a '69 383 RR that I installed a HV pump on and I also had a similar problem on my GTX. Both had stock pans and pick-ups, and both stopped having the problem when I overfilled the oil. I swapped out the pump on the GTX and no more problem. I ended up selling the RR and just ran it with extra oil until the new owner picked it up. In the interest of full disclosure, I never checked either pick-up to pan clearance to know where they were at? Maybe I'm just unlucky, LOL!

Milodon makes an externally adjusable OP spring cover.

https://www.summitracing.com/search...nally-adjustable-oil-pressure-regulators

I got the engine running. My hot oil pressure is less than 10 lbs. at 1500 rpm. Pressure is 20 psi at 3000 rpm. I changed the oil to a 10w 30 and the pressure rose about 5 psi hot. Evidently I have an internal oil leak. But am at a loss where it might be or how to find it. Looking for suggestions or how to proceed. I have oil flow out of the rockers both sides and it doesn't appear to be foamy or have bubbles in it. I'm going to remove the intake today to look at the cam / valvetrain

I would look for missing or loose plugs behind the timing cover.

Take out all but .010 gap from the rocker side play and use a mig tip drilled to size for oil restriction in the rockers in the rocker stand.,open the valley and prime with a drill the oil pump and see where you think too much oil is flowing.

W/r/t "draining the pan":
How did you distinguish between:
1. no oil in the pan, and
2. plenty of oil but doesn't cover the pickup at that moment

I can’t imagine it having any oil pressure to speak of if a plug were missing.
And one would need to be really loose........ like ready to fall out before I think it would have that much affect on the pressure.

If you’re still employing the factory style through-the-cam top end oiling, I don’t see how the oiling to the top end could be the problem.

To me, that leaves a restricted or loose oil pump pick up, a restriction coming out of the pump into the block, a restriction in the pass side oil gallery........ or excessive bearing clearances somewhere.

Hopefully priming with the intake off will reveal something.

I just had a 360 on the dyno the other day.
It has edm lifters, pushrods with holes on both ends, and rockers than can be used as pushrod oiled.
It also retains the factory through-the-cam oiling(double oiling to the top)......... and plenty of side clearance between the rocker pairs.

Stock replacement type pan....... after several back to back pulls the oil pressure was still 30psi@1000 rpm.
About 65psi@6500 with Driven BR 15/50.

Thanks for your input that makes sense to me. I took the rocker assy's off and the passenger side rockers are black where they ride on the shaft the driver side is not. This seems odd because the driver side is down the line in the oil flow path. I'm going to pull the engine to check the pick up and engine bearings . I most likely will need to start over the build as the engine oil does not look good, it is black after only 15 min of running.... The lesson learned is ....if something doesn't seem right investigate till it does even if the machine shop tells you to" run it " . This is turning out to be a very expensive 440!

I would look at the #4 cam bearing first to see if it is aligned properly on the top oil holes that feed the rocker arms
A quick messy way to check oil flow to the rocker arms before tearing into the motor is to prime the motor with all the spark plugs removed as well as both rocker arm shafts removed and spin the motor over on the starter while priming it to see if both oil holes out of the heads squirt the same amount of oil out of the heads
Let us know what you find

Both sides are fed by the oil going to the #4 cam journal, and through the cam when the holes in the cam line up with the holes in the bearing.
Both sides are at the same point in the flow path.

There would have to be a restriction to the feed on the one side to not have equal oiling to the top end.

My thought at this point is....... the #4 cam bearing is toast(as well as maybe a couple more), and may have wadded up some babbitt and stuffed it in the feed holes going to the top...... and the one side is essentially blocked off.

The best oil pressure you are going to get with a drill motor will depend on the rated HP of the drill motor. A "Good" HV oil pump (for a BB MOPAR) will flow just under 20GPM/min,. To generate 40 psi with a 95% efficient pump you will need at least .5HP - 60psi will require .75HP. Now if the pump become less efficient (75%) you will need 1HP to generate 60psi.
All that being said looks like your in the ball park.( this is a simplified explanation without corrections for oil viscosity differences but gets the point across)

I did find some bearing material [ that is what it looks like] in the oil on the pass sde head. I guess i'll find out when i get it apart.. thank you for your help! Would or can an incorrectly installed cam bearing cause low oil pressure?

You could check to be sure the gage works and prime the engine with the port open with some rags over it.
You could us an air gun to test the oil to the head port as long as you have rockers off.

Sounds like something went wrong but I don't have any good guesses at this point. Perhaps some sort of assembly mistake. We had a 427 Ford in the shop a few years back that would lose oil pressure when it was warm. Nobody could figure it out so the engine was stripped down to the bare block. Turns out there was an internal crack in the block which opened up a bit as the block got hot. Hadn't seen that one before.

The last 3 new std. volume Melling pumps that I have used have the pink low pressure relief valve spring installed. Hot idle on the break in stand was in the low 20 psi. range. Replaced the spring with a black spring from older used pump and idle pressure was in the mid 40 psi range.

HTH
Randy

here is the oil flow pathoil flow pic

Being very fed up with folklore, on my next project I'm marking levels in my pan, installing a temporary sight tube on the side of it
and will physically watch the fluid level at 7000 rpm with a camera. If it "sucks the pan dry" or if "there are two quarts of oil in each valve
cover at high rpm" I will physically see it.

original poster, pls let us know how it's going and what you find in there.

I'd be very interested to see your results. As you know, I run 7.5 quarts of oil in my hemi and have been routinely turning 7500 rpm w/ it and no issues. Some people need a bathtub for an oil pan and 15 quarts of oil to be comfortable.

My dad's 540" mild street hemi (not built yet) will have a stock style "six pack/hemi" 6 quart oil pan on it. I'm undecided about what pump to use w/ it, but leaning towards a HV Melling. I have the same setup on his current 440-6 engine and it's been fine for 10+ years.

I agree 100% about the folklore. There's so much bad info out there it's ridiculous. Really shows up on the FB groups, lol.