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4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
#263514
03/23/09 04:41 PM
03/23/09 04:41 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,152
Colorado
CuriousYella70
OP
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OP
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Posts: 1,152
Colorado
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Okay, I have my 70 Charger R/T and here's where I'm getting stuck. Ultimately, I'm planning on installing a date coded Dana 60 rear, 4:10 gears and the 440 will produce approximately 500+ hp -- just depends on the $$ situation at the time. I have access to plenty of 23 spline 4speeds, but my question is will they hold up in this current setup or will I need to install an 18 spline instead? Secondly, I would like to be able to drive this comfortably around town. I've seen Passon's 4 speed setup, but have been told that tho it's nice, its just a 3 speed with an overdrive. Anyone have a good solution to this, can you replace the 4th gear in an 18 or 23 spline to allow for easy cruising on the highway? Keisler will not be an option in my case -- i've heard too many bad things concerning their trannys. Thanks guys 
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: CuriousYella70]
#263515
03/23/09 04:49 PM
03/23/09 04:49 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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23 spline is plenty strong. Probably not for fulltime drags, but otherwise OK
I'm not familiar with Passion, but the Chrysler OEM OD unit is just that---a special 4 speed with an OD gear in place of THIRD gear. You swap the [Edited by Moparts - Keep it clean] lever upside down for 3/4 so that when you shift 1234, the transmission "reallys" shifts 1243. YOU CAN NOT modify a stock 4 speed. At the very least, the pinion, cluster, 3rd gear, and the mainshaft are all different. Easiest way would be to find a new one. I'm not a big fan of these---large gear spread and OD 4th means you are "really" running in 3rd gear for high.
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: CuriousYella70]
#263516
03/23/09 04:53 PM
03/23/09 04:53 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,219
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
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I Live Here
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If you can swing the 18 spline, it would make for some piece of mind. The 23 should be OK for anything other than lots of WOT blasts.
I want my fair share
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
#263517
03/23/09 04:57 PM
03/23/09 04:57 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,065
Milwaukee, WI
In_The_Pink
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Milwaukee, WI
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Quote:
23 spline is plenty strong. Probably not for fulltime drags, but otherwise OK
I'm not familiar with Passion, but the Chrysler OEM OD unit is just that---a special 4 speed with an OD gear in place of THIRD gear. You swap the [Edited by Moparts - Keep it clean] lever upside down for 3/4 so that when you shift 1234, the transmission "reallys" shifts 1243. YOU CAN NOT modify a stock 4 speed. At the very least, the pinion, cluster, 3rd gear, and the mainshaft are all different. Easiest way would be to find a new one. I'm not a big fan of these---large gear spread and OD 4th means you are "really" running in 3rd gear for high.
Actually with an O.D. version of the A-833 4-speed, third gear is a 1:1 ratio, which is equivalent to fourth gear in the standard A-833. With the O.D. verions, fouth gear is overdriven in a .73:1 or .76:1 (truck and car versions are different) ratio, giving you lower RPMs at highway speeds.
I see no reason not to go with a Passon unit. The stock O.D. A-833 will not hold up behind a 500 hp engine and the standard A-833 will not give you the lower cruise RPM you want, so they're the best choice for your needs. 
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: CuriousYella70]
#263519
03/23/09 09:08 PM
03/23/09 09:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 160
Florida
hemisurfer
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Just curious how many 23 spline input shafts have you guys broken or twisted?
I am running a 23 spline on the street with a healthy 493 stroker. Not enough traction on the street to break a 23 spline IMO. On the track with slicks have yet to bust it.
Talked to my engine builder, he ran a Road Runner well into the 11's with a 23 spline... no breakage.
Since you guys don't want 'em where can I go to pick up all these "junk" 23 splines?
Seriously I'd buy one on the cheap if you know where I can get one.
Chris
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: JerseyJoe]
#263522
03/23/09 11:01 PM
03/23/09 11:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 160
Florida
hemisurfer
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Try it, I think you will be happy. I run my car hard and its running just fine.
On the street the tires are gonna break loose and dampen any shock load anyway.
On the track anything goes but my trans is still running just fine. 833's are plenty stout 23 and 18 spline.
Last edited by hemisurfer; 03/24/09 09:40 AM.
Chris
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: Dan Brewer]
#263524
03/23/09 11:06 PM
03/23/09 11:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 160
Florida
hemisurfer
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Florida
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How do you think a 23 spline input shaft will hold up if I have Liberty face plate 3-4 and pro shift 2nd?
I think it will be fine, curious what you think. More shock load, will use the clutch with accelerator to the floor on a pass.
Road Runner low 12 second car.
Chris
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: JerseyJoe]
#263525
03/23/09 11:10 PM
03/23/09 11:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 160
Florida
hemisurfer
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If you do break it another will be cheap apparently people are giving them away.
I have yet to meet somebody that has broken one excluding the horror stories from hardcore racers that make lots of passes (and also spent tons on clutchless transmissions) so the stories may be justification for the $$$$
Chris
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: CuriousYella70]
#263527
03/23/09 11:27 PM
03/23/09 11:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 160
Florida
hemisurfer
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If you want overdrive you should prob talk to Brewers or Passon. I am more attuned to drag stuff.
I know the factory overdrives had issues. I believe Dan who posted in this thread is with Brewers you might want to give them a call. I've also talked to Jamie Passon good sources for your questions.
Chris
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: LAR_414]
#263530
03/24/09 08:48 AM
03/24/09 08:48 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,982
Ansonia, CT
CJK440
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The other thing to consider is not all 23 spline's are the same. The steeper the first gear, the weaker the box. A 3.09 first gear is the weakest.
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: CuriousYella70]
#263531
03/24/09 08:53 AM
03/24/09 08:53 AM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 869
Sugarloaf, PA. USA
JamiePasson
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I see no problem running a 23 spline in a REASONABLY heavy car with 550 hp. Now, I'm not talking a 4900 lb 71 FURY III Wagon. (I know it sounds rediculous, but I'm sure someone out there has a stick in one of these!) A lot more goes into whether a trans is going to survive. Rear ratio, clutch type, tire type. A 4.10 geared car is going to be easier on drivetrain stuff than a 3.23 car equally outfitted otherwise. The factory OD's definitely had their issues. Gear ratios are probably the biggest issue. Then it comes to the weaker mainshaft and floating countershaft design.
Our Overdrive Hemi 4 speed takes care of all of these issues. I am not going to say that it can't be broken, because as everyone knows, anything can be broken, but I have several people running over 750 hp throught them in late 60's b Bodies without trouble. So, that being said, you be the judge.
Jamie
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: Dan Brewer]
#263532
03/24/09 09:10 AM
03/24/09 09:10 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,058
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Your not going to break a 23 spline with 500 hp on the street even in a heavy car. I don't know why people bash these things, must be chebby guys
No , it's people that read too much BS posted on internet sites .
The parts I have broken in a 23 spline are the exact same parts I would break in an 18 spline ... INTERNAL BRASS SHIFT FORKS .
The 18 spline trans can be broken also , ask Hemi joel and Dave Dudek how many 3rd gear they have broken ?
Since the OP has a bunch of 23 splines I would just use them and replace as he needs to ... which will probably be ZERO ...
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: CuriousYella70]
#263533
03/24/09 09:12 AM
03/24/09 09:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Well now i'm willing to give the 23 spline a chance, i've got a few so why not. Now here's another question though -- I want to be able to cruise on the highway or wherever with low rpm's with a Dana 60 and 4:10 gears, can i swap out gears in the tranny that'll allow this? Or am i stuck with the 23 spline the way that it is, and if I want to be able to cruise at low rpm's, i'll be forced to purchase a passon?
Sorry for the simple questions -- im new with transmissions, one of the few things im still unsure of guys so i appreciate ya'lls patience 
no you can't swap gears , your only choice for a stout 833 based OD trans is the Passon gearset ,. just buy it , it sounds like money is not an issue since you feel you need to drop the coin for the DATE CODED DANA 60 ...
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