Moparts
4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
Posted By: CuriousYella70
4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/23/09 08:41 PM
Okay, I have my 70 Charger R/T and here's where I'm getting stuck. Ultimately, I'm planning on installing a date coded Dana 60 rear, 4:10 gears and the 440 will produce approximately 500+ hp -- just depends on the $$ situation at the time. I have access to plenty of 23 spline 4speeds, but my question is will they hold up in this current setup or will I need to install an 18 spline instead?
Secondly, I would like to be able to drive this comfortably around town. I've seen Passon's 4 speed setup, but have been told that tho it's nice, its just a 3 speed with an overdrive. Anyone have a good solution to this, can you replace the 4th gear in an 18 or 23 spline to allow for easy cruising on the highway? Keisler will not be an option in my case -- i've heard too many bad things concerning their trannys.
Thanks guys
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/23/09 08:49 PM
23 spline is plenty strong. Probably not for fulltime drags, but otherwise OK
I'm not familiar with Passion, but the Chrysler OEM OD unit is just that---a special 4 speed with an OD gear in place of THIRD gear. You swap the [Edited by Moparts - Keep it clean] lever upside down for 3/4 so that when you shift 1234, the transmission "reallys" shifts 1243. YOU CAN NOT modify a stock 4 speed. At the very least, the pinion, cluster, 3rd gear, and the mainshaft are all different. Easiest way would be to find a new one. I'm not a big fan of these---large gear spread and OD 4th means you are "really" running in 3rd gear for high.
Posted By: SomeCarGuy
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/23/09 08:53 PM
If you can swing the 18 spline, it would make for some piece of mind. The 23 should be OK for anything other than lots of WOT blasts.
Posted By: In_The_Pink
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/23/09 08:57 PM
Quote:
23 spline is plenty strong. Probably not for fulltime drags, but otherwise OK
I'm not familiar with Passion, but the Chrysler OEM OD unit is just that---a special 4 speed with an OD gear in place of THIRD gear. You swap the [Edited by Moparts - Keep it clean] lever upside down for 3/4 so that when you shift 1234, the transmission "reallys" shifts 1243. YOU CAN NOT modify a stock 4 speed. At the very least, the pinion, cluster, 3rd gear, and the mainshaft are all different. Easiest way would be to find a new one. I'm not a big fan of these---large gear spread and OD 4th means you are "really" running in 3rd gear for high.
Actually with an O.D. version of the A-833 4-speed, third gear is a 1:1 ratio, which is equivalent to fourth gear in the standard A-833. With the O.D. verions, fouth gear is overdriven in a .73:1 or .76:1 (truck and car versions are different) ratio, giving you lower RPMs at highway speeds.
I see no reason not to go with a Passon unit. The stock O.D. A-833 will not hold up behind a 500 hp engine and the standard A-833 will not give you the lower cruise RPM you want, so they're the best choice for your needs. 
Posted By: CuriousYella70
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/23/09 11:31 PM
Well that's what I was told when I was looking to put a 4 speed behind a 440 in my Demon, that a 23 spline is not a safe bet with so much horsepower. That the 18 spline is the only way to go -- just sucks because I have access to so many 23 splines lol
Okay, so it sounds like the Passon 18 spline is the way to go -- and im still wanting the factory appearance in the R/T and it sounds like that's the unit to go with
Posted By: hemisurfer
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 01:08 AM
Just curious how many 23 spline input shafts have you guys broken or twisted?
I am running a 23 spline on the street with a healthy 493 stroker. Not enough traction on the street to break a 23 spline IMO. On the track with slicks have yet to bust it.
Talked to my engine builder, he ran a Road Runner well into the 11's with a 23 spline... no breakage.
Since you guys don't want 'em where can I go to pick up all these "junk" 23 splines?
Seriously I'd buy one on the cheap if you know where I can get one.
Posted By: Dan Brewer
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 02:34 AM
Your not going to break a 23 spline with 500 hp on the street even in a heavy car. I don't know why people bash these things, must be chebby guys
Posted By: JerseyJoe
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 02:56 AM
Very interesting,
How many people are running 23's with 500 HP?
I'm also building a 493" and have a 23 spline on hand going into a '70 Charger. I thought I would have to buy the Passon gearset before putting it on the road.
If I can drive with the 23 spline while saving up for a Passon I'd give it a shot.
Posted By: hemisurfer
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 03:01 AM
Try it, I think you will be happy. I run my car hard and its running just fine.
On the street the tires are gonna break loose and dampen any shock load anyway.
On the track anything goes but my trans is still running just fine. 833's are plenty stout 23 and 18 spline.
Posted By: JerseyJoe
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 03:04 AM
I'm willing to try, I know I'll end up at the track eventually. I figured I'd have to really nurse a 23 along with the stroker.
Posted By: hemisurfer
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 03:06 AM
How do you think a 23 spline input shaft will hold up if I have Liberty face plate 3-4 and pro shift 2nd?
I think it will be fine, curious what you think. More shock load, will use the clutch with accelerator to the floor on a pass.
Road Runner low 12 second car.
Posted By: hemisurfer
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 03:10 AM
If you do break it another will be cheap apparently people are giving them away.
I have yet to meet somebody that has broken one excluding the horror stories from hardcore racers that make lots of passes (and also spent tons on clutchless transmissions) so the stories may be justification for the $$$$
Posted By: CuriousYella70
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 03:23 AM
Well now i'm willing to give the 23 spline a chance, i've got a few so why not. Now here's another question though -- I want to be able to cruise on the highway or wherever with low rpm's with a Dana 60 and 4:10 gears, can i swap out gears in the tranny that'll allow this? Or am i stuck with the 23 spline the way that it is, and if I want to be able to cruise at low rpm's, i'll be forced to purchase a passon?
Sorry for the simple questions -- im new with transmissions, one of the few things im still unsure of guys so i appreciate ya'lls patience
Posted By: hemisurfer
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 03:27 AM
If you want overdrive you should prob talk to Brewers or Passon. I am more attuned to drag stuff.
I know the factory overdrives had issues. I believe Dan who posted in this thread is with Brewers you might want to give them a call. I've also talked to Jamie Passon good sources for your questions.
Posted By: ryan053
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 07:50 AM
The stroked 383 in my charger made 488 horsepower. The 23 spline trans has handled it fine so far. The car gets driven often and hard too.
Posted By: LAR_414
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 12:01 PM
My dad and I are both running 23 spline stock transmissions.
His is more impressive.....3900lbs!!!! mid 11's on slicks.
NEVER BROKE A SINGLE TRANS PART IN 40 YEARS. Power shifting every run. Now this is a true street car that is beat on at the track about 20-30 runs a year. Probably around 550hp
Mine is about 525 hp and 3300lbs but I haven't been to the track yet with this setup.,,,but it ran 11.07 in Oct with an automatic.
Moral of the story......23 spline is fine!
Posted By: CJK440
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 12:48 PM
The other thing to consider is not all 23 spline's are the same. The steeper the first gear, the weaker the box. A 3.09 first gear is the weakest.
Posted By: JamiePasson
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 12:53 PM
I see no problem running a 23 spline in a REASONABLY heavy car with 550 hp. Now, I'm not talking a 4900 lb 71 FURY III Wagon. (I know it sounds rediculous, but I'm sure someone out there has a stick in one of these!) A lot more goes into whether a trans is going to survive. Rear ratio, clutch type, tire type. A 4.10 geared car is going to be easier on drivetrain stuff than a 3.23 car equally outfitted otherwise. The factory OD's definitely had their issues. Gear ratios are probably the biggest issue. Then it comes to the weaker mainshaft and floating countershaft design.
Our Overdrive Hemi 4 speed takes care of all of these issues. I am not going to say that it can't be broken, because as everyone knows, anything can be broken, but I have several people running over 750 hp throught them in late 60's b Bodies without trouble. So, that being said, you be the judge.
Jamie
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 01:10 PM
Quote:
Your not going to break a 23 spline with 500 hp on the street even in a heavy car. I don't know why people bash these things, must be chebby guys
No , it's people that read too much BS posted on internet sites .
The parts I have broken in a 23 spline are the exact same parts I would break in an 18 spline ... INTERNAL BRASS SHIFT FORKS .
The 18 spline trans can be broken also , ask Hemi joel and Dave Dudek how many 3rd gear they have broken ?
Since the OP has a bunch of 23 splines I would just use them and replace as he needs to ... which will probably be ZERO ...
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 01:12 PM
Quote:
Well now i'm willing to give the 23 spline a chance, i've got a few so why not. Now here's another question though -- I want to be able to cruise on the highway or wherever with low rpm's with a Dana 60 and 4:10 gears, can i swap out gears in the tranny that'll allow this? Or am i stuck with the 23 spline the way that it is, and if I want to be able to cruise at low rpm's, i'll be forced to purchase a passon?
Sorry for the simple questions -- im new with transmissions, one of the few things im still unsure of guys so i appreciate ya'lls patience
no you can't swap gears , your only choice for a stout 833 based OD trans is the Passon gearset ,. just buy it , it sounds like money is not an issue since you feel you need to drop the coin for the DATE CODED DANA 60 ...
Posted By: Chi_Town_Runner
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 01:53 PM
Quote:
-- just sucks because I have access to so many 23 splines lol
If you have access to so many 23 splines, why not just try the 23 spilne. 4-Speed transmissions are pretty simple to change out. If the 23 spline gives out then step up to the 18 spline.
But I really think the 23 spline will hold up.
Good luck
Frank
Posted By: sixbbl69
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 02:27 PM
there must be some reason Chrysler put 18 spline transmissions in 440 hp and hemi cars in late 60's.must have run out of 23 spline.
Posted By: CuriousYella70
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 02:38 PM
Please dont 'assume' that i'm willing to throw all sorts of coin out for a date coded dana 60 -- a buddy has one and is giving it to me for under $500 because we've been buddies -- i'm not different then anyone else on the board, I dont have all sorts of $$ to throw at this car, but if i'm going to do it, i'm gonna do it right the first time but thank you for your opinion.
Sounds like i'll go with the 23 spline -- no one here seems to have had any issues with them or has been able to break them.
So then curiosity is still striking me -- why did Hemi and 440hp cars receive the 18spline?
Posted By: Mopar1
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 02:43 PM
Quote:
Just curious how many 23 spline input shafts have you guys broken or twisted?
The best question on this post thus far and no answers to boot. 
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 02:57 PM
My
For now run the 23 spline, you'll never hurt it on a street car.
When you have the money buy a Passon 4 speed, they are awesome, gear spread isn't perfect but it's not terrible either.
Send me one of your A-body 4 speeds, a late summer 1970 assembly date please 
Posted By: hemisurfer
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 03:00 PM
Brewers and Passon weighed in I guess they don't know what they are talking about.
Factory SS and Pro Stocks required a factory installed transmission back in the day. I would assume this has something to do with it. Perhaps Mopar wanted to reduce warranty repairs from knuckleheads that did dumb things at the track.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If anybody has a 23 spline tranny that will work in a 69 B Body let me know.
I am willing to shell out 100 bucks for each tranny in good condition and I will take them away. Good deal since they are prone to fail. PM me if your interested.
Posted By: CuriousYella70
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 03:20 PM
Quote:
My
For now run the 23 spline, you'll never hurt it on a street car.
When you have the money buy a Passon 4 speed, they are awesome, gear spread isn't perfect but it's not terrible either.
Send me one of your A-body 4 speeds, a late summer 1970 assembly date please
lol no problem Scott, i'll get right on that! I actually might have a late 70 set of pedals, not sure though so i'll check for ya -- What's up with not coming up and saying hi at MATS?? I know you saw me sitting behind dads Plum Crazy Challenger in the KU hat 
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 03:23 PM
Actually I didn't see you or I would have. The whole event was a blur, I was in the ICCA tent most of the time and when I escaped I was pretty much on a dead run to see as much as I could on limited time. I'm good on pedals, just need a dated bell and trans for the Dustbag
Posted By: CuriousYella70
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 03:27 PM
lol you're telling me -- I only had Friday to run through the whole show, had to fly back Friday night. Scored a crap load of parts for the R/T though which was awesome -- even talked the guy who has half of vendor row down on all of his pieces, never thought that would happen. I'll keep an eye on the trans/bell for ya --
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/24/09 03:31 PM
I was surprised as well, found a perfectly dated Pass 71 340 ex manifold ($150.00) a MINT with choke 1,000 CFM Competition TQ carb ($75.00) a 70 dated 340 Bell housing ($50.00) a 71 23 spline A-body trans with shifter and linkage ($150.00) and a few other trinkets. It seemed like good luck to me, not many vendors but I found nearly everything I was on the hunt for at reasonable prices.
*I still need one more bell & trans for my buddy's car which is why I'm still looking.
Posted By: theclutcher
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/25/09 03:22 PM
I run a 309 non od 23 spline with a 3.54 Dana.
Same 1st ratio as a 2.66 and 4.10.
no problems and nice to cruise.
Dont think you'll hurt the trans till you start putting meat on pavement.
Posted By: 446acuda
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/25/09 03:33 PM
Quote:
there must be some reason Chrysler put 18 spline transmissions in 440 hp and hemi cars in late 60's.must have run out of 23 spline.
Here is my take on that. The most violent of all Hemis were built in '64-5 and those Race Hemis found every weak link in the driveline which brought about the 18 spline trans and Dana in late '65 or so. Funny, because nothing had that kind of drivetrain breaking power after '65 except for the Hemi A-bodies.
Posted By: 446acuda
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/25/09 03:46 PM
Quote:
The other thing to consider is not all 23 spline's are the same. The steeper the first gear, the weaker the box. A 3.09 first gear is the weakest.
Not really an issue. You will break third gear way before slightly weaker low ratios become a problem. This may be something to consider on weak transmissions like the BW T-5 but not A833's.
Posted By: PAINT IT BLACK
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/25/09 04:31 PM
I run nearly 500 hp with a 23 spline and never worry at all about my 23 spline. I've never run slicks though... but I doubt there would be a problem.
That being said, I am going to slap in a Passon's OD gearset soon.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/25/09 04:38 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Just curious how many 23 spline input shafts have you guys broken or twisted?
The best question on this post thus far and no answers to boot.
Well for one thing I hadn't been back to this post. I didn't realize that I gave the impression that a 23 spline was ready to break at any instant. In fact, towards the end of my S Cal days, I ran a 440 Cuda into the 11's with one. What I MEANT to imply that PROBABLY if you were a FULL TIME racer, and assuming you ran something with a lot of power you MIGHT not want to run one.
I stick by my guns about the Chrysler type OD, though. In "high" (really third) you are spinning a bronze bushed bear against a mainshaft for long periods of time, either that or you "really" have a three speed.
Posted By: phantomx
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/25/09 04:39 PM
You might check to see if there is a Gear Vendor available for the 833. It won't look stock from underneath, but you will still have 4 non-O/D gears instead of just 3. Unless someone looked under the car, they'd never know it was there.
Travis..
Posted By: CuriousYella70
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/25/09 05:36 PM
Well just to clarify things -- the Charger will not be pounded on the race track, it'll be a show car, occasional highway or cruise car, and from time to time I'll take her to the track but it's not a full blown race car. So it sounds like the 23 spline should be just fine until I get the $$ for a Passon.
Thanks for the help and clarification guys -- it doesn't sound like anyone's had a problem with the 23 spline and why shell out 2grand for an 18spline if its not needed?
Posted By: Bill MeLater
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/25/09 10:19 PM
Way to go Phantomx...Now we're all gonna know it's there....BTW why is it that more splines = more tooth contact = stronger, everywhere but A833 input shaft???
Posted By: hemisurfer
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/25/09 10:29 PM
Check out the diameter of the 18 spline. It's overkill...I believe the hemi trans is coarse tooth input the gears are fine tooth for more contact area and the gears are brass bushed to reduce friction.
Posted By: rabid scott
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/25/09 10:33 PM
Quote:
Way to go Phantomx...Now we're all gonna know it's there....BTW why is it that more splines = more tooth contact = stronger, everywhere but A833 input shaft???
18 spline input is physically larger. 23 spline is 1", 18 is what, 1 1/8"?
Posted By: hemisurfer
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/25/09 10:36 PM
23 spline 1.248 " ...plenty big
18 spline 1.417 " ...it's a beast
Comparison:
Ford Toploader 1 1/16 input (1.0625)
Muncie M22 1 1/8 (1.125)
Posted By: cupcake
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/26/09 01:45 AM
just put the tko 600 in forget bout that old rattlin 833 truck trans
Posted By: Bill MeLater
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/26/09 02:42 AM
Well, then I would prefer a 1 1/8" 23 spline...
Posted By: Spraygoon
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/26/09 04:23 AM
I have a n 18 spline in a 70 Cuda (amen to that third gear thing) with a 440 6 pack. I also have a 64 Fury with a 23 spline behind a mild 440. Beleive me they are two different animals and its not just shifter arm length. Not real sure what the internal differences are but the 23 spline is much more enjoyable and easier to drive. They do have different clutches Old style Borg and Beck in the Cuda and a Centerforce in the Fury. ( I like the Centerforce MUCH better!!)I would say your clutch and tire choice should be considered before deciding on a tranny. I think the 23 will work fine.The Cuda has a 3.54 Dana(originaly a 4 bbl car) The Fury tachs about 2800 @70 mph (3.23)TheCudaabout 3000 @70. If the math holds true that would put you car @ 3800 rpm @ 70 mph witha 4.10 gear. I think your real problem is rear gear selection.
Paul
Posted By: CuriousYella70
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/26/09 04:26 AM
Well truth be told, I was wanting to build my Charger similar to that of my father's 70 RR. It's an original 440-6pak, Dana 60 4:10 trak pak car. Thus, the want for an 18spline and a Dana 60 with 4:10 gears -- he's told me story after story about the fun he's had in that car and I thought it'd be cool to have similar B-Body's with the exception of the six pak setup -- might sound stupid but oh well
Posted By: 446acuda
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/26/09 03:08 PM
Quote:
23 spline 1.248 " ...plenty big
18 spline 1.417 " ...it's a beast
Comparison:
Ford Toploader 1 1/16 input (1.0625)
Muncie M22 1 1/8 (1.125)
Actually 23 spline is 1", 18 spline is 1-3/16" (1.1875") .toploader is 1-1/16 or 1-3/8 but you are correct on the muncie. 1.417" is the diameter of the throwout bearing sleeve for an 18 spline trans and 1.248 is the diameter of the throwout bearing sleeve on a 23 spline trans.
Posted By: hemisurfer
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/26/09 04:59 PM
Posted By: 446acuda
Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose? - 03/26/09 08:50 PM
That chart is correct for the diameter of throwout bearing sleeve part of the front bearing retainer and is not the same as the input shaft spline diameter.