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4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
#263514
03/23/09 04:41 PM
03/23/09 04:41 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,152
Colorado
CuriousYella70
OP
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Colorado
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Okay, I have my 70 Charger R/T and here's where I'm getting stuck. Ultimately, I'm planning on installing a date coded Dana 60 rear, 4:10 gears and the 440 will produce approximately 500+ hp -- just depends on the $$ situation at the time. I have access to plenty of 23 spline 4speeds, but my question is will they hold up in this current setup or will I need to install an 18 spline instead? Secondly, I would like to be able to drive this comfortably around town. I've seen Passon's 4 speed setup, but have been told that tho it's nice, its just a 3 speed with an overdrive. Anyone have a good solution to this, can you replace the 4th gear in an 18 or 23 spline to allow for easy cruising on the highway? Keisler will not be an option in my case -- i've heard too many bad things concerning their trannys. Thanks guys 
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: CuriousYella70]
#263515
03/23/09 04:49 PM
03/23/09 04:49 PM
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Anonymous
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23 spline is plenty strong. Probably not for fulltime drags, but otherwise OK
I'm not familiar with Passion, but the Chrysler OEM OD unit is just that---a special 4 speed with an OD gear in place of THIRD gear. You swap the [Edited by Moparts - Keep it clean] lever upside down for 3/4 so that when you shift 1234, the transmission "reallys" shifts 1243. YOU CAN NOT modify a stock 4 speed. At the very least, the pinion, cluster, 3rd gear, and the mainshaft are all different. Easiest way would be to find a new one. I'm not a big fan of these---large gear spread and OD 4th means you are "really" running in 3rd gear for high.
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: CuriousYella70]
#263516
03/23/09 04:53 PM
03/23/09 04:53 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
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Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
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If you can swing the 18 spline, it would make for some piece of mind. The 23 should be OK for anything other than lots of WOT blasts.
I want my fair share
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
#263517
03/23/09 04:57 PM
03/23/09 04:57 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,065
Milwaukee, WI
In_The_Pink
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Milwaukee, WI
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Quote:
23 spline is plenty strong. Probably not for fulltime drags, but otherwise OK
I'm not familiar with Passion, but the Chrysler OEM OD unit is just that---a special 4 speed with an OD gear in place of THIRD gear. You swap the [Edited by Moparts - Keep it clean] lever upside down for 3/4 so that when you shift 1234, the transmission "reallys" shifts 1243. YOU CAN NOT modify a stock 4 speed. At the very least, the pinion, cluster, 3rd gear, and the mainshaft are all different. Easiest way would be to find a new one. I'm not a big fan of these---large gear spread and OD 4th means you are "really" running in 3rd gear for high.
Actually with an O.D. version of the A-833 4-speed, third gear is a 1:1 ratio, which is equivalent to fourth gear in the standard A-833. With the O.D. verions, fouth gear is overdriven in a .73:1 or .76:1 (truck and car versions are different) ratio, giving you lower RPMs at highway speeds.
I see no reason not to go with a Passon unit. The stock O.D. A-833 will not hold up behind a 500 hp engine and the standard A-833 will not give you the lower cruise RPM you want, so they're the best choice for your needs. 
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: CuriousYella70]
#263519
03/23/09 09:08 PM
03/23/09 09:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 160
Florida
hemisurfer
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Just curious how many 23 spline input shafts have you guys broken or twisted?
I am running a 23 spline on the street with a healthy 493 stroker. Not enough traction on the street to break a 23 spline IMO. On the track with slicks have yet to bust it.
Talked to my engine builder, he ran a Road Runner well into the 11's with a 23 spline... no breakage.
Since you guys don't want 'em where can I go to pick up all these "junk" 23 splines?
Seriously I'd buy one on the cheap if you know where I can get one.
Chris
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: JerseyJoe]
#263522
03/23/09 11:01 PM
03/23/09 11:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 160
Florida
hemisurfer
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Try it, I think you will be happy. I run my car hard and its running just fine.
On the street the tires are gonna break loose and dampen any shock load anyway.
On the track anything goes but my trans is still running just fine. 833's are plenty stout 23 and 18 spline.
Last edited by hemisurfer; 03/24/09 09:40 AM.
Chris
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: Dan Brewer]
#263524
03/23/09 11:06 PM
03/23/09 11:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Florida
hemisurfer
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How do you think a 23 spline input shaft will hold up if I have Liberty face plate 3-4 and pro shift 2nd?
I think it will be fine, curious what you think. More shock load, will use the clutch with accelerator to the floor on a pass.
Road Runner low 12 second car.
Chris
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: JerseyJoe]
#263525
03/23/09 11:10 PM
03/23/09 11:10 PM
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Florida
hemisurfer
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If you do break it another will be cheap apparently people are giving them away.
I have yet to meet somebody that has broken one excluding the horror stories from hardcore racers that make lots of passes (and also spent tons on clutchless transmissions) so the stories may be justification for the $$$$
Chris
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: CuriousYella70]
#263527
03/23/09 11:27 PM
03/23/09 11:27 PM
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Florida
hemisurfer
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If you want overdrive you should prob talk to Brewers or Passon. I am more attuned to drag stuff.
I know the factory overdrives had issues. I believe Dan who posted in this thread is with Brewers you might want to give them a call. I've also talked to Jamie Passon good sources for your questions.
Chris
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: LAR_414]
#263530
03/24/09 08:48 AM
03/24/09 08:48 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Ansonia, CT
CJK440
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The other thing to consider is not all 23 spline's are the same. The steeper the first gear, the weaker the box. A 3.09 first gear is the weakest.
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: CuriousYella70]
#263531
03/24/09 08:53 AM
03/24/09 08:53 AM
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Sugarloaf, PA. USA
JamiePasson
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I see no problem running a 23 spline in a REASONABLY heavy car with 550 hp. Now, I'm not talking a 4900 lb 71 FURY III Wagon. (I know it sounds rediculous, but I'm sure someone out there has a stick in one of these!) A lot more goes into whether a trans is going to survive. Rear ratio, clutch type, tire type. A 4.10 geared car is going to be easier on drivetrain stuff than a 3.23 car equally outfitted otherwise. The factory OD's definitely had their issues. Gear ratios are probably the biggest issue. Then it comes to the weaker mainshaft and floating countershaft design.
Our Overdrive Hemi 4 speed takes care of all of these issues. I am not going to say that it can't be broken, because as everyone knows, anything can be broken, but I have several people running over 750 hp throught them in late 60's b Bodies without trouble. So, that being said, you be the judge.
Jamie
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: Dan Brewer]
#263532
03/24/09 09:10 AM
03/24/09 09:10 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Your not going to break a 23 spline with 500 hp on the street even in a heavy car. I don't know why people bash these things, must be chebby guys
No , it's people that read too much BS posted on internet sites .
The parts I have broken in a 23 spline are the exact same parts I would break in an 18 spline ... INTERNAL BRASS SHIFT FORKS .
The 18 spline trans can be broken also , ask Hemi joel and Dave Dudek how many 3rd gear they have broken ?
Since the OP has a bunch of 23 splines I would just use them and replace as he needs to ... which will probably be ZERO ...
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: CuriousYella70]
#263533
03/24/09 09:12 AM
03/24/09 09:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,125
A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Well now i'm willing to give the 23 spline a chance, i've got a few so why not. Now here's another question though -- I want to be able to cruise on the highway or wherever with low rpm's with a Dana 60 and 4:10 gears, can i swap out gears in the tranny that'll allow this? Or am i stuck with the 23 spline the way that it is, and if I want to be able to cruise at low rpm's, i'll be forced to purchase a passon?
Sorry for the simple questions -- im new with transmissions, one of the few things im still unsure of guys so i appreciate ya'lls patience 
no you can't swap gears , your only choice for a stout 833 based OD trans is the Passon gearset ,. just buy it , it sounds like money is not an issue since you feel you need to drop the coin for the DATE CODED DANA 60 ...
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: hemisurfer]
#263537
03/24/09 10:43 AM
03/24/09 10:43 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,806
Newfoundland Canada
Mopar1
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Quote:
Just curious how many 23 spline input shafts have you guys broken or twisted?
The best question on this post thus far and no answers to boot. 
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: sixbbl69]
#263539
03/24/09 11:00 AM
03/24/09 11:00 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 160
Florida
hemisurfer
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Brewers and Passon weighed in I guess they don't know what they are talking about.
Factory SS and Pro Stocks required a factory installed transmission back in the day. I would assume this has something to do with it. Perhaps Mopar wanted to reduce warranty repairs from knuckleheads that did dumb things at the track.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If anybody has a 23 spline tranny that will work in a 69 B Body let me know.
I am willing to shell out 100 bucks for each tranny in good condition and I will take them away. Good deal since they are prone to fail. PM me if your interested.
Last edited by hemisurfer; 03/24/09 11:12 AM.
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#263540
03/24/09 11:20 AM
03/24/09 11:20 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,152
Colorado
CuriousYella70
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Quote:
My
For now run the 23 spline, you'll never hurt it on a street car.
When you have the money buy a Passon 4 speed, they are awesome, gear spread isn't perfect but it's not terrible either.
Send me one of your A-body 4 speeds, a late summer 1970 assembly date please 
lol no problem Scott, i'll get right on that! I actually might have a late 70 set of pedals, not sure though so i'll check for ya -- What's up with not coming up and saying hi at MATS?? I know you saw me sitting behind dads Plum Crazy Challenger in the KU hat 
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: sixbbl69]
#263545
03/25/09 11:33 AM
03/25/09 11:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,734
Charlotte, NC
446acuda
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Quote:
there must be some reason Chrysler put 18 spline transmissions in 440 hp and hemi cars in late 60's.must have run out of 23 spline. 
Here is my take on that. The most violent of all Hemis were built in '64-5 and those Race Hemis found every weak link in the driveline which brought about the 18 spline trans and Dana in late '65 or so. Funny, because nothing had that kind of drivetrain breaking power after '65 except for the Hemi A-bodies.
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: CJK440]
#263546
03/25/09 11:46 AM
03/25/09 11:46 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Charlotte, NC
446acuda
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Quote:
The other thing to consider is not all 23 spline's are the same. The steeper the first gear, the weaker the box. A 3.09 first gear is the weakest.
Not really an issue. You will break third gear way before slightly weaker low ratios become a problem. This may be something to consider on weak transmissions like the BW T-5 but not A833's.
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: Mopar1]
#263548
03/25/09 12:38 PM
03/25/09 12:38 PM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Quote:
Just curious how many 23 spline input shafts have you guys broken or twisted?
The best question on this post thus far and no answers to boot.
Well for one thing I hadn't been back to this post. I didn't realize that I gave the impression that a 23 spline was ready to break at any instant. In fact, towards the end of my S Cal days, I ran a 440 Cuda into the 11's with one. What I MEANT to imply that PROBABLY if you were a FULL TIME racer, and assuming you ran something with a lot of power you MIGHT not want to run one.
I stick by my guns about the Chrysler type OD, though. In "high" (really third) you are spinning a bronze bushed bear against a mainshaft for long periods of time, either that or you "really" have a three speed.
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: PAINT IT BLACK]
#263549
03/25/09 12:39 PM
03/25/09 12:39 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 982
W. Sacto CA. USA
phantomx
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You might check to see if there is a Gear Vendor available for the 833. It won't look stock from underneath, but you will still have 4 non-O/D gears instead of just 3. Unless someone looked under the car, they'd never know it was there.
Travis..
70 GTX project, orig 440-4, 4 spd, track pack, FC7, stripper/street racer special.
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: Bill MeLater]
#263552
03/25/09 06:29 PM
03/25/09 06:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Florida
hemisurfer
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Check out the diameter of the 18 spline. It's overkill...I believe the hemi trans is coarse tooth input the gears are fine tooth for more contact area and the gears are brass bushed to reduce friction.
Last edited by hemisurfer; 03/25/09 06:30 PM.
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: Bill MeLater]
#263553
03/25/09 06:33 PM
03/25/09 06:33 PM
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Posts: 1,884
Tracy CA
rabid scott
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Quote:
Way to go Phantomx...Now we're all gonna know it's there....BTW why is it that more splines = more tooth contact = stronger, everywhere but A833 input shaft???
18 spline input is physically larger. 23 spline is 1", 18 is what, 1 1/8"?
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: rabid scott]
#263554
03/25/09 06:36 PM
03/25/09 06:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 160
Florida
hemisurfer
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23 spline 1.248 " ...plenty big
18 spline 1.417 " ...it's a beast
Comparison:
Ford Toploader 1 1/16 input (1.0625)
Muncie M22 1 1/8 (1.125)
Last edited by hemisurfer; 03/25/09 06:54 PM.
Chris
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: rabid scott]
#263557
03/26/09 12:23 AM
03/26/09 12:23 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 81
Oklahoma City
Spraygoon
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I have a n 18 spline in a 70 Cuda (amen to that third gear thing) with a 440 6 pack. I also have a 64 Fury with a 23 spline behind a mild 440. Beleive me they are two different animals and its not just shifter arm length. Not real sure what the internal differences are but the 23 spline is much more enjoyable and easier to drive. They do have different clutches Old style Borg and Beck in the Cuda and a Centerforce in the Fury. ( I like the Centerforce MUCH better!!)I would say your clutch and tire choice should be considered before deciding on a tranny. I think the 23 will work fine.The Cuda has a 3.54 Dana(originaly a 4 bbl car) The Fury tachs about 2800 @70 mph (3.23)TheCudaabout 3000 @70. If the math holds true that would put you car @ 3800 rpm @ 70 mph witha 4.10 gear. I think your real problem is rear gear selection.
Paul
Paul Reber
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: hemisurfer]
#263559
03/26/09 11:08 AM
03/26/09 11:08 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,734
Charlotte, NC
446acuda
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Quote:
23 spline 1.248 " ...plenty big
18 spline 1.417 " ...it's a beast
Comparison:
Ford Toploader 1 1/16 input (1.0625)
Muncie M22 1 1/8 (1.125)
Actually 23 spline is 1", 18 spline is 1-3/16" (1.1875") .toploader is 1-1/16 or 1-3/8 but you are correct on the muncie. 1.417" is the diameter of the throwout bearing sleeve for an 18 spline trans and 1.248 is the diameter of the throwout bearing sleeve on a 23 spline trans.
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Re: 4 Speed -- What would you do / Choose?
[Re: 446acuda]
#263560
03/26/09 12:59 PM
03/26/09 12:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 160
Florida
hemisurfer
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Last edited by hemisurfer; 03/26/09 01:00 PM.
Chris
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