Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before
[Re: CSK]
#2633134
03/15/19 07:28 PM
03/15/19 07:28 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,682 Philadelphia
radar
OP
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OP
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I do NOT recommend loctite on the bolts I could see a bunch of loctite crumbs causing problems in the oil pump maybe but why not clean the threads and bolts nice and dry and smear a drop of blue loctite on the first few threads? Also I’ve used adjustable pushrods to preload hydraulic lifters on harleys a million times and set lash on tons of solid flat tappets in v8s but all I ever did on a non adjustable setup was make sure the pushrods had no lash but still could be spun in my fingers on the heel of the cam. I guess with the valley open I can spin it around a little and look at the lifter bodies and make sure the lifter pistons are uniformly depressed an appropriate amount from a fully extended lifter? The motor didn’t really have any lifter clatter or anything before the poo hit the fan. I just want to put it back together and feel confident- I’m not really sure why this happened unless I just didn’t properly torque the rear bolt in the first place.
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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before
[Re: radar]
#2633143
03/15/19 08:21 PM
03/15/19 08:21 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,857 Pattison Texas
CSK
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master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,857
Pattison Texas
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I do NOT recommend loctite on the bolts I could see a bunch of loctite crumbs causing problems in the oil pump maybe but why not clean the threads and bolts nice and dry and smear a drop of blue loctite on the first few threads? Also I’ve used adjustable pushrods to preload hydraulic lifters on harleys a million times and set lash on tons of solid flat tappets in v8s but all I ever did on a non adjustable setup was make sure the pushrods had no lash but still could be spun in my fingers on the heel of the cam. I guess with the valley open I can spin it around a little and look at the lifter bodies and make sure the lifter pistons are uniformly depressed an appropriate amount from a fully extended lifter? The motor didn’t really have any lifter clatter or anything before the poo hit the fan. I just want to put it back together and feel confident- I’m not really sure why this happened unless I just didn’t properly torque the rear bolt in the first place. For one, the 2nd bolt from the rear has an oil passage for the rockers, 2. if you remove the bolts after you have put on loctite the Heli Coil will likely get uscreewed out of the aluminum cyl head, not what you want, 3. why do it, there is no reason to, not done from mamopar, or ANYone that I know of, none on my stealth heads, yours came loose because they where never tighten down correct.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before
[Re: radar]
#2633264
03/16/19 10:35 AM
03/16/19 10:35 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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I just want to put it back together and feel confident- I’m not really sure why this happened unless I just didn’t properly torque the rear bolt in the first place. that'd be my guess (it happens to all of us at one time or another). To do lifters to the nth degree (which I do now after my recent lifter fiascoes!) is take em apart & clean thoroughly then reassemble dry then install em & set preload individually if I have adjustable rockers & if not then I before hand on mockup individually checked preload (it should be about the same on all of em but cant assume anything for everything being the same length/dimention) then get #1 cyl to 15 BTDC compression then preoil. I also toss the flimsy clips & use hardware store 11/16 internal snap rings in their place & a guy said to have the sharp edge side down which I thought was backwards but I am going with what he said. It might be better to lightly lube internals with WD40 as opposed to dry & I am open to changeing that but that is where I am at now. Holler how it turns out
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before
[Re: radar]
#2633326
03/16/19 12:28 PM
03/16/19 12:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,857 Pattison Texas
CSK
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master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,857
Pattison Texas
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And thanks for all the help and for not beatin me up too bad for soft torquing that bolt😘 Heck my life of working on cars is FULL of mistakes & I know there will be many more for me LOL, Keep us posted !!!
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before
[Re: CSK]
#2633328
03/16/19 12:31 PM
03/16/19 12:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,163 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,163
Bend,OR USA
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[quote=radar
Heck my life of working on cars is FULL of mistakes & I know there will be many more for me LOL, Keep us posted !!! The only way I learn to remember to NOT REPEAT mistakes is to have to learn how to fix them
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 03/16/19 12:32 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before
[Re: radar]
#2633350
03/16/19 01:16 PM
03/16/19 01:16 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
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Also I don’t see a helicoil in the rocker stands on my stock stealths- maybe the ported model has them? I wonder if it was an assembly line slip up on their end, I would think if alum stands needed em that it would be the same across the board on all of em.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before
[Re: RapidRobert]
#2633429
03/16/19 06:11 PM
03/16/19 06:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,857 Pattison Texas
CSK
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Pattison Texas
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Also I don’t see a helicoil in the rocker stands on my stock stealths- maybe the ported model has them? I wonder if it was an assembly line slip up on their end, I would think if alum stands needed em that it would be the same across the board on all of em. the 1,3,5 holes have the heilicoil, 2&4 do not
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before
[Re: CSK]
#2633436
03/16/19 06:50 PM
03/16/19 06:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,270 Morrow, OH
markz528
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Morrow, OH
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These are aluminum heads?
Either way, grade 8 bolts are wrong for the application. You can't stretch the bolt properly without risking damage to the threads in the head. If the heads are cast iron, then I would feel comfortable with grade 5 uncoated bolts. Coated bolts change the torque requirement.
If the heads are aluminum, then I am a strong proponent of studs. Because you don't have the high friction on the internal threads while torquing with studs, the studs torque better, and you have a lesser chance of damaging the threads. Remember that when torquing a bolt the bolt is twisting during the torquing process - studs don't have that problem. Also remember that if you over-torque the bolts you can yield the bolt or internal threads or both and then not have proper clamping force. Once yielded its not possible to have proper clamping.
Most pf the time you can get away without proper clamping/bolting practices, but eventually it can bite you when you have a more difficult clamping application. I consider rocker clamping more difficult than most bolting on an engine. In my work life, I have been involved in quite a few bolting failures, and some were super expensive. Because I'm anal, I try to follow clamping/bolting best practices on everything I put together.
67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph 67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph 69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before
[Re: markz528]
#2633452
03/16/19 08:11 PM
03/16/19 08:11 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,682 Philadelphia
radar
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,682
Philadelphia
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These are aluminum heads?
Either way, grade 8 bolts are wrong for the application. You can't stretch the bolt properly without risking damage to the threads in the head. If the heads are cast iron, then I would feel comfortable with grade 5 uncoated bolts. Coated bolts change the torque requirement.
If the heads are aluminum, then I am a strong proponent of studs. Because you don't have the high friction on the internal threads while torquing with studs, the studs torque better, and you have a lesser chance of damaging the threads. Remember that when torquing a bolt the bolt is twisting during the torquing process - studs don't have that problem. Also remember that if you over-torque the bolts you can yield the bolt or internal threads or both and then not have proper clamping force. Once yielded its not possible to have proper clamping.
Most pf the time you can get away without proper clamping/bolting practices, but eventually it can bite you when you have a more difficult clamping application. I consider rocker clamping more difficult than most bolting on an engine. In my work life, I have been involved in quite a few bolting failures, and some were super expensive. Because I'm anal, I try to follow clamping/bolting best practices on everything I put together.
I get that for sure but I always felt like I’d oval the shaft before any stretching happened? I thought the rocker shaft roundness was the weak link in this operation, at least with stock hold down spacer/washers which don’t apply force to a whole 180 degrees like a fancy billet hold down.
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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before
[Re: radar]
#2633455
03/16/19 08:37 PM
03/16/19 08:37 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,163 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,163
Bend,OR USA
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I get that for sure but I always felt like I’d oval the shaft before any stretching happened? I thought the rocker shaft roundness was the weak link in this operation, at least with stock hold down spacer/washers which don’t apply force to a whole 180 degrees like a fancy billet hold down. You are correct on the stock shafts and their weaknesses I've had to file more than one shaft ends to get adjustable rocker arms off of them when someone else had over tighten them
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2633767
03/17/19 05:04 PM
03/17/19 05:04 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,682 Philadelphia
radar
OP
top fuel
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OP
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Philadelphia
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Ok so this morning I reassembled the valvetrain and top end and gave her another shot at the break in period. Here’s a video. A couple minutes after this it started getting real hot so I shut her down, waited a bit, and added more antifreeze. Hopefully it just needed more burping. I started it back up after waiting for it to cool some more and I saw the temp climb then come back down as the thermostat opened, then start slowly climbing again. It got to around 210 before I shut it down again. The RPMs were starting to hunt a little bit which was worrying. The AFR was reading around 9-10 which is PIG rich- I dunno if it even matters with no load on the motor? I did fix the floats so they’re not high any more. Dunno if twiddling the 4 idle screws would even make a difference with the throttle open to het 2500-3000 rpm. Of course on shutdown I was treated to a little dieseling and a couple nice loud tailpipe backfires. I’m gonna call that normal for the throttle being open that far. The rpm hunting does have me worried though. I’m going to re-check the rockers before continuing the break in. I did get to hear the idle for as long as it took me to jump out after it started and zing up the curb idle screw- if I ever get this monster running right it is gonna sound nasty! https://youtu.be/ihPa2vJz7Ag
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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before
[Re: radar]
#2633817
03/17/19 08:12 PM
03/17/19 08:12 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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what do the plugs look like now?
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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