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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: radar] #2633042
03/15/19 02:41 PM
03/15/19 02:41 PM
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When you check the lifter preload make sure and do that on the firing stroke on each cylinder, not when the intake and exhaust valves are on the overlap cycle scope


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: CSK] #2633134
03/15/19 07:28 PM
03/15/19 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by csk
I do NOT recommend loctite on the bolts


I could see a bunch of loctite crumbs causing problems in the oil pump maybe but why not clean the threads and bolts nice and dry and smear a drop of blue loctite on the first few threads?

Also I’ve used adjustable pushrods to preload hydraulic lifters on harleys a million times and set lash on tons of solid flat tappets in v8s but all I ever did on a non adjustable setup was make sure the pushrods had no lash but still could be spun in my fingers on the heel of the cam.

I guess with the valley open I can spin it around a little and look at the lifter bodies and make sure the lifter pistons are uniformly depressed an appropriate amount from a fully extended lifter? The motor didn’t really have any lifter clatter or anything before the poo hit the fan.

I just want to put it back together and feel confident- I’m not really sure why this happened unless I just didn’t properly torque the rear bolt in the first place.

Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: radar] #2633143
03/15/19 08:21 PM
03/15/19 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by radar
Originally Posted by csk
I do NOT recommend loctite on the bolts


I could see a bunch of loctite crumbs causing problems in the oil pump maybe but why not clean the threads and bolts nice and dry and smear a drop of blue loctite on the first few threads?

Also I’ve used adjustable pushrods to preload hydraulic lifters on harleys a million times and set lash on tons of solid flat tappets in v8s but all I ever did on a non adjustable setup was make sure the pushrods had no lash but still could be spun in my fingers on the heel of the cam.

I guess with the valley open I can spin it around a little and look at the lifter bodies and make sure the lifter pistons are uniformly depressed an appropriate amount from a fully extended lifter? The motor didn’t really have any lifter clatter or anything before the poo hit the fan.

I just want to put it back together and feel confident- I’m not really sure why this happened unless I just didn’t properly torque the rear bolt in the first place.


For one, the 2nd bolt from the rear has an oil passage for the rockers, 2. if you remove the bolts after you have put on loctite the Heli Coil will likely get uscreewed out of the aluminum cyl head, not what you want, 3. why do it, there is no reason to, not done from mamopar, or ANYone that I know of, none on my stealth heads, yours came loose because they where never tighten down correct.


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: CSK] #2633183
03/15/19 10:58 PM
03/15/19 10:58 PM
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Alright I got some new parts. Gotta get some replacement bolts or studs. New lifters are soaking in oil till I get a chance to button it back up.

385AEE43-6935-4984-9780-F42F643FC080.jpeg
Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: radar] #2633216
03/16/19 03:03 AM
03/16/19 03:03 AM
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I have used a pushrod in the lifters with them fully submerge in oil and pump them(the pushrods in the lifter cups) up and down until all the air stop coming out of the sides of the lifters to make sure they where full of oil and not the factory anti rust stuff that is in them scope
I have also soaked them like your doing and then used a drill motor to spin the oil pump over to prime the motor and then used the starter to spin the motor over with no spark plugs in the motor 20 to 40 RPM several times to fully lube the rocker shafts and rocker arms thumbs


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: Cab_Burge] #2633243
03/16/19 09:19 AM
03/16/19 09:19 AM
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My personal preference is not to soak or pump up a hydraulic lifter until it has been installed/adjusted. When filled or pumped up, setting pre-load it will open the valve not pre-load. This makes it very hard to set proper pre-load. For me anyhow wrench

Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: radar] #2633264
03/16/19 10:35 AM
03/16/19 10:35 AM
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Quote
I just want to put it back together and feel confident- I’m not really sure why this happened unless I just didn’t properly torque the rear bolt in the first place.
that'd be my guess (it happens to all of us at one time or another). To do lifters to the nth degree (which I do now after my recent lifter fiascoes!) is take em apart & clean thoroughly then reassemble dry then install em & set preload individually if I have adjustable rockers & if not then I before hand on mockup individually checked preload (it should be about the same on all of em but cant assume anything for everything being the same length/dimention) then get #1 cyl to 15 BTDC compression then preoil. I also toss the flimsy clips & use hardware store 11/16 internal snap rings in their place & a guy said to have the sharp edge side down which I thought was backwards but I am going with what he said. It might be better to lightly lube internals with WD40 as opposed to dry & I am open to changeing that but that is where I am at now. Holler how it turns out


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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: RapidRobert] #2633319
03/16/19 12:19 PM
03/16/19 12:19 PM
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I’m done collecting parts- the 1/4” longer bolts for the end and middle stands fit perfect. The extra thread engagement will give me a little reassurance, plus the loosening shaft beat up the threads on the stock bolt so that’s garbage anyway. Gotta work a long day today, hopefully tomorrow I can report with good news.

Also I don’t see a helicoil in the rocker stands on my stock stealths- maybe the ported model has them? Or marbe I need a flashlight. The exhaust bolt holes definitely have steel inserts which is nice.

368FC29E-659B-4C72-B4CD-7394E4C62475.jpeg
Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: radar] #2633322
03/16/19 12:21 PM
03/16/19 12:21 PM
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And thanks for all the help and for not beatin me up too bad for soft torquing that bolt😘

Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: radar] #2633326
03/16/19 12:28 PM
03/16/19 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by radar
And thanks for all the help and for not beatin me up too bad for soft torquing that bolt😘


Heck my life of working on cars is FULL of mistakes & I know there will be many more for me LOL, Keep us posted !!!


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: CSK] #2633328
03/16/19 12:31 PM
03/16/19 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by csk
[quote=radar

Heck my life of working on cars is FULL of mistakes & I know there will be many more for me LOL, Keep us posted !!!

The only way I learn to remember to NOT REPEAT mistakes is to have to learn how to fix them realcrazy rant

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 03/16/19 12:32 PM.

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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: radar] #2633350
03/16/19 01:16 PM
03/16/19 01:16 PM
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Quote
Also I don’t see a helicoil in the rocker stands on my stock stealths- maybe the ported model has them?
I wonder if it was an assembly line slip up on their end, I would think if alum stands needed em that it would be the same across the board on all of em.


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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: RapidRobert] #2633409
03/16/19 04:47 PM
03/16/19 04:47 PM
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When I built my first small block (318 w/360 heads) way back in the early 1980s, I tried torqueing the shaft bolts to 25 lb-ft and some of the bolts would stretch before getting to that torque. Also it seemed like they were an odd length, 2-1/8" or something that wasn't readily available at the nut and bolt stores. twocents


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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: mr_340] #2633424
03/16/19 05:47 PM
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If my memory is correct I think all the SB rocker shaft hold down bolts are 5/16, not 3/8 like the BB and Hemi motors use scope


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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: RapidRobert] #2633429
03/16/19 06:11 PM
03/16/19 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by RapidRobert
Quote
Also I don’t see a helicoil in the rocker stands on my stock stealths- maybe the ported model has them?
I wonder if it was an assembly line slip up on their end, I would think if alum stands needed em that it would be the same across the board on all of em.


the 1,3,5 holes have the heilicoil, 2&4 do not


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: CSK] #2633436
03/16/19 06:50 PM
03/16/19 06:50 PM
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These are aluminum heads?

Either way, grade 8 bolts are wrong for the application. You can't stretch the bolt properly without risking damage to the threads in the head. If the heads are cast iron, then I would feel comfortable with grade 5 uncoated bolts. Coated bolts change the torque requirement.

If the heads are aluminum, then I am a strong proponent of studs. Because you don't have the high friction on the internal threads while torquing with studs, the studs torque better, and you have a lesser chance of damaging the threads. Remember that when torquing a bolt the bolt is twisting during the torquing process - studs don't have that problem. Also remember that if you over-torque the bolts you can yield the bolt or internal threads or both and then not have proper clamping force. Once yielded its not possible to have proper clamping.

Most pf the time you can get away without proper clamping/bolting practices, but eventually it can bite you when you have a more difficult clamping application. I consider rocker clamping more difficult than most bolting on an engine. In my work life, I have been involved in quite a few bolting failures, and some were super expensive. Because I'm anal, I try to follow clamping/bolting best practices on everything I put together.


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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: markz528] #2633452
03/16/19 08:11 PM
03/16/19 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by markz528
These are aluminum heads?

Either way, grade 8 bolts are wrong for the application. You can't stretch the bolt properly without risking damage to the threads in the head. If the heads are cast iron, then I would feel comfortable with grade 5 uncoated bolts. Coated bolts change the torque requirement.

If the heads are aluminum, then I am a strong proponent of studs. Because you don't have the high friction on the internal threads while torquing with studs, the studs torque better, and you have a lesser chance of damaging the threads. Remember that when torquing a bolt the bolt is twisting during the torquing process - studs don't have that problem. Also remember that if you over-torque the bolts you can yield the bolt or internal threads or both and then not have proper clamping force. Once yielded its not possible to have proper clamping.

Most pf the time you can get away without proper clamping/bolting practices, but eventually it can bite you when you have a more difficult clamping application. I consider rocker clamping more difficult than most bolting on an engine. In my work life, I have been involved in quite a few bolting failures, and some were super expensive. Because I'm anal, I try to follow clamping/bolting best practices on everything I put together.



I get that for sure but I always felt like I’d oval the shaft before any stretching happened? I thought the rocker shaft roundness was the weak link in this operation, at least with stock hold down spacer/washers which don’t apply force to a whole 180 degrees like a fancy billet hold down.

Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: radar] #2633455
03/16/19 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by radar
Originally Posted by markz528


I get that for sure but I always felt like I’d oval the shaft before any stretching happened? I thought the rocker shaft roundness was the weak link in this operation, at least with stock hold down spacer/washers which don’t apply force to a whole 180 degrees like a fancy billet hold down.

You are correct on the stock shafts and their weaknesses thumbs
I've had to file more than one shaft ends to get adjustable rocker arms off of them when someone else had over tighten them rant


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Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: Cab_Burge] #2633767
03/17/19 05:04 PM
03/17/19 05:04 PM
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Ok so this morning I reassembled the valvetrain and top end and gave her another shot at the break in period.

Here’s a video. A couple minutes after this it started getting real hot so I shut her down, waited a bit, and added more antifreeze. Hopefully it just needed more burping.

I started it back up after waiting for it to cool some more and I saw the temp climb then come back down as the thermostat opened, then start slowly climbing again. It got to around 210 before I shut it down again. The RPMs were starting to hunt a little bit which was worrying. The AFR was reading around 9-10 which is PIG rich- I dunno if it even matters with no load on the motor? I did fix the floats so they’re not high any more. Dunno if twiddling the 4 idle screws would even make a difference with the throttle open to het 2500-3000 rpm.

Of course on shutdown I was treated to a little dieseling and a couple nice loud tailpipe backfires. I’m gonna call that normal for the throttle being open that far.

The rpm hunting does have me worried though. I’m going to re-check the rockers before continuing the break in. I did get to hear the idle for as long as it took me to jump out after it started and zing up the curb idle screw- if I ever get this monster running right it is gonna sound nasty!

https://youtu.be/ihPa2vJz7Ag

Re: Ate a couple lifters- never seen that before [Re: radar] #2633817
03/17/19 08:12 PM
03/17/19 08:12 PM
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what do the plugs look like now?


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