Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: JERICOGTX]
#2624689
02/22/19 02:12 PM
02/22/19 02:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,027 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,027
Oregon
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IMO just find a GOOD MACHINE SHOP. Round is round, square is square, flat is flat. When I first got into this, I asked my machinist if he knew Mopars. He said "It's a chunk of iron, it doesn't know what it is". I've never questioned him again, and never had a problem with his work. That is true to some extent but it is nice to work with a shop that knows enough about Mopars to know where to buy stuff. A really good machinist who only works on Chevy engines probably won't know where to buy special Mopar parts and tools. He might not even know they exist. And he probably won't know little tricks like using AMC lifters for pushrod oiling or where to find billet rear main seals and stuff like that. Even Mopar guys don't know a lot of these tricks which is why there are about 100 questions a day posted to this board.
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: AndyF]
#2624715
02/22/19 02:42 PM
02/22/19 02:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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IMO just find a GOOD MACHINE SHOP. Round is round, square is square, flat is flat. When I first got into this, I asked my machinist if he knew Mopars. He said "It's a chunk of iron, it doesn't know what it is". I've never questioned him again, and never had a problem with his work. That is true to some extent but it is nice to work with a shop that knows enough about Mopars to know where to buy stuff. A really good machinist who only works on Chevy engines probably won't know where to buy special Mopar parts and tools. He might not even know they exist. And he probably won't know little tricks like using AMC lifters for pushrod oiling or where to find billet rear main seals and stuff like that. Even Mopar guys don't know a lot of these tricks which is why there are about 100 questions a day posted to this board. My thought wasn't on whether the shops that don't do much Mopar work can do it correctly, as much as are they familiar with some of the common mods (e.g., enlarging the BB oil system passages) that the more experienced shops do as a matter of course. EDIT: Funny thing I found is that the shops that aren't "Mopar Only" are also more open to options on how/what can be built. Example: Every "Mopar" machine shop I've spoken or dealt with has been very firm on whether they'll upgrade with aluminum main caps vs steel main caps, and/or use girdles. Pretty much NO middle ground, despite any experiences or observations you can provide them that goes against their philosophy. The non-Mopar shop that's done my last couple of rounds of block work is perfectly willing to listen to the pros & cons about both approaches. In the end, he thought my idea of using aluminum main caps for the "shock absorption" benefit along w/ a girdle to stabilize the caps was a pretty good idea, given what he knew -- or we talked about -- are the deficiencies of OEM RB blocks. I think his comment was: "I don't see any downside to doing both".
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: BradH]
#2624722
02/22/19 02:52 PM
02/22/19 02:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,027 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,027
Oregon
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A couple of local shops who do a lot of engines call me if they have a customer who wants a Mopar stroker engine built. These guys are so busy building engines all day long that they don't have time to research what is available. One guy just always used Indy heads since that was all he knew about until I showed him a set of Trick Flows. Once he saw the Trick Flow heads he switched.
If the customer doesn't know much about Mopar engines and he goes to a shop that doesn't know much about Mopar engines then the end result might be really generic. Even if the machine work is perfect, the engine might not perform great, or it might cost more than it needs to.
Does the shop knows that Molnar makes Mopar cranks or do they only know about 440Source? Do they know that Mahle has Mopar stroker pistons with a metric ring pack or do they just order the Icon pistons? Good engine builders tend to be in high demand which means they are super busy. Probably too busy to spend several hours researching all the options for an engine that they don't see very often.
Last edited by AndyF; 02/22/19 02:54 PM.
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: TamrazsParts]
#2624745
02/22/19 03:52 PM
02/22/19 03:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
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IMO if you pick a place that knows nothing about ANYTHING Mopar then you picked the wrong place. I have NEVER used a "Mopar" shop and I think the results speak for themselves. Don't understand why some insist the only place that can build a Mopar is a "Mopar" shop.
The OP lives close to one of the BEST shops in the country. They have fast Pontiacs, Buicks, Oldsmobiles, Chevys, Fords and yes Mopars. In fact the fastest FSS car in the world was built there. A good shop is a good shop. Not to say places like Best, Barton, Marsh, Hensley, Kammer and Kammer, FBO, etc are not very good at what they do, and if I was close to one I would consider using them. But just using your local "mopar" guy may not get you the BEST results in your area. I used a Winston West builder when I was in NorCal for machine work, passing over the local "mopar guru" and was not disappointed one bit
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: TamrazsParts]
#2624753
02/22/19 04:13 PM
02/22/19 04:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,022 MN
JERICOGTX
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,022
MN
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Well, I generally bring the machinist all my parts, Crank, rods, pistons, etc. Only thing he picks out are the rings, and bearings. My heads have usually been sent off to Dwayne Porter, and I've assembled the long block.
I'm not a fan of using someone 200 miles away, when a local guy does nice work, and gives me good advice. When I have had a problem, he took care of it right away. Would he do that if I wasn't local, and had not used him before? Probably not.
Last edited by JERICOGTX; 02/22/19 04:13 PM.
69 GTX
68 Road Runner
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: TamrazsParts]
#2624826
02/22/19 06:17 PM
02/22/19 06:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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Consider AUTO MACHINE, St. Charles, IL
Kim (front desk), and family owned, Jim DeBates and crew... they can do it all; have top quality machining equipment... very good to talk with, great long term business reputation! I recently had my short block built there. Highly respected from the AERA.
One major problem that is growing is that many shops are finding difficulty in keeping long-term machinists with experience... unless they pay well, then the people leave and find another career.... something other than machine-shop engine work. In fact, many shops have actually gone down to 2-3-4-5 ppl shops. They can afford to pick their work that comes to them.
Its also a growing industry problem teaching new machinists... many younger students would rather work on a keyboard/PC, making an easy $50-60-75K up etc... instead of in a machine shop building, measuring and machining an engine.... and getting their hands a little dirty. Just ask any long-term established shop... they'll tell you all about this issue. As well as finding good reliable workers that'll show up on established work days.. and be clean and sober, etc.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: TamrazsParts]
#2624858
02/22/19 07:49 PM
02/22/19 07:49 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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I already have the machined, heads, block, intake...Hughes wanted to start all over and go with an entirely "their" engine. Thats not what I wanted to do. Ok, that's part of the problem. No way in HELL would I go back and work with another shops machine work. Absolutely no way. Now I get why Hughes wanted to start over. Just because someone does something doesn't mean I do it that way. I see guys spend a bunch of time and money on oiling mods that doesn't do anything. And that's just a start. I won't touch another shops work. Now your OP makes sense. I would do it Hughes way myself. I'd tell you I'll start over or not do it.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: TamrazsParts]
#2624877
02/22/19 08:55 PM
02/22/19 08:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
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I already have the machined, heads, block, intake...Hughes wanted to start all over and go with an entirely "their" engine. Thats not what I wanted to do. Folks really seem to hate cleaning up someone else's mess more than anything else. They all prefer to start fresh, and I can't blame 'em. It's probably going to be kind of tough to find anyone who will assemble/build it and assume responsibility for it at the same time....unless they machined it too. I hope you find a solution to this and aren't discouraged by it.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: AndyF]
#2624883
02/22/19 09:16 PM
02/22/19 09:16 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174
PA.
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You could always assemble it yourself, It’s not brain surgery. Reading some of these posts makes it sound harder than it is.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2624888
02/22/19 09:39 PM
02/22/19 09:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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You could always assemble it yourself, It’s not brain surgery. Reading some of these posts makes it sound harder than it is. Might cost you a few specialty tools, but it's a learning experience. Although I can't do my own head & block machining, I do all the assembly now. Only way that I'll know how it went together, especially after an experience or two where "professional" engine builders really let me down.
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: ZIPPY]
#2624890
02/22/19 09:45 PM
02/22/19 09:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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I already have the machined, heads, block, intake...Hughes wanted to start all over and go with an entirely "their" engine. Thats not what I wanted to do. Folks really seem to hate cleaning up someone else's mess more than anything else. They all prefer to start fresh, and I can't blame 'em. It's probably going to be kind of tough to find anyone who will assemble/build it and assume responsibility for it at the same time....unless they machined it too. You mean like how my "finish machined" .040" OS block was taken out to .055" 'cuz the 2nd shop didn't like the work done by the 1st shop?
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: TamrazsParts]
#2624901
02/22/19 10:22 PM
02/22/19 10:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496
So. Burlington, Vt.
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I’m pretty sure Markz528 brought BES a pile of previously machined stuff that had issues, and they didn’t seem to have any qualms about going through it and making it work.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2624904
02/22/19 10:30 PM
02/22/19 10:30 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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I’m pretty sure Markz528 brought BES a pile of previously machined stuff that had issues, and they didn’t seem to have any qualms about going through it and making it work. If there is something left to work with and the customer is willing to pay then yes, you can follow another shops work. It's my experience that 99% of the people say they'll pay and then the sniveling starts.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#2624938
02/23/19 12:01 AM
02/23/19 12:01 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051 The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051
The Great White North
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One major problem that is growing is that many shops are finding difficulty in keeping long-term machinists with experience... unless they pay well, then the people leave and find another career.... something other than machine-shop engine work. In fact, many shops have actually gone down to 2-3-4-5 ppl shops. They can afford to pick their work that comes to them.
Its also a growing industry problem teaching new machinists... many younger students would rather work on a keyboard/PC, making an easy $50-60-75K up etc... instead of in a machine shop building, measuring and machining an engine.... and getting their hands a little dirty. Just ask any long-term established shop... they'll tell you all about this issue. As well as finding good reliable workers that'll show up on established work days.. and be clean and sober, etc.
All of this is true, in fact I've switched trades recently as well. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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