Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there

Hey there! Need some advice.

30 year Mopar veteran. Grew up in Chicago and used to have all of my engine work done through a local shop that has long been out of business.

I have a great shop (on 63rd and New England) that doesn't really do performance work per se, so mostly I have them prep the block, and I build the rest. Budget Engine (aka Chicago Engines, Call Glenn - $350 bore and hone - the work is the best price I've seen. Done 20 of them in as many years...

Here is the problem:

Called Hughes Engines (they build my last race motor 20 years ago) Best engine I ever ran....however...recently, I called to arrange labor bid/costing for my short block (400/512/270TF head) combo project suddenly became a 15K crate engine build with a totally different outcome. Great crew, but they don't take orders the way you want them, and they seem to choose what they want for work. And I don't want to refinance my house.

Muscle Motors, Michigan - Talked to Eric Budden there. Seems nice, got a good price on the rotating assembly. Research shows they went under 2 years ago. Is that true? The website is still up.

Indy Cylinder Head - absolute nightmare reviews. Would chance buying their long blocks, but they still sell everything via PDF catalog. What is this 2003?

Ray Barton - website is black-flagged for virus...no SSL on the site. Really? I expect more for a guy who builds the fastest Hemi's I'd heard of.

PER Race Engines, Plainfield - Drive by on a Friday at 2 p.m. to stop in and talk about the build. Not very friendly, guys points me to the front office....nobody there. Called them...Monday, guy who answers says "we don't do old Mopar" - which is good, given a friend also told me that he had them do a long block 540 Chevy...and when he got the engine back...changed the oil pan...and in the process, found 3 main bolts hand tight. Explanation? Hard times...we had some night crews working late. Scratch that one!

Built-rite engines - great guys...did some work with them in 2012. 3 weeks is actually 3-4 months...and I was still over budget because they didn't realize piston/rod assembly I used then would work. I was referred there from a Chevy friend...and that chevy friend has had his engine goto pieces 4 times. It has been sleeved twice, and its world products block from like 2005. So I'm gun shy

So who is within 250 miles of Chicago and still does decent Long block assembly for older Mopars.

Conclusion: What the hell is happening to these shops? No wonder my other plan is to dump the old [censored] and buy a Challenger like everyone else. Then at least I can call Arrington and build something modern.

Thanks for any insights you can provide.

chuck@tamrazs.com

Opel Engineering up in Streamwood.

They only sell parts now. No longer do machining or assembly.

Right at your 250 miles is Bischoff Engine Services (BES) in Indiana - Tony Bischoff knows how to make hp on any motor. He ended up fixing my "the block" that MM totally screwed up. Street/Strip 505 with OOTB TrickFlow 270 heads made 713 HP and 707 torque with a Dwayne Porter spec'd cam.

I can't say enough good things about BES. They are my type of machine shop and I am very difficult to please. Not the cheapest though.....

IMO just find a GOOD MACHINE SHOP. Round is round, square is square, flat is flat. Find someone who builds engines in the area you are looking to target and talk to them. BES is one of the better shops in the country IMO. Be hard pressed to find better. They are "close" to you why bother with a "Mopar" shop when you have one of the nest in your backyard

another vote for Opel engineering. Ted is a genius

Maybe outside of 250 miles, but what about Best Machine?

Dennis

x 2.
Best Machine.

http://www.midwestenginetech.com/
Check them out

Ted at Opel is good. And he's a mopar guy.

Valley performance and machine
Ionia Mi
Great guys. Mopar shop

Mike Blackstone in Iron Mountain MI builds great engines. A lot of stock, super stock,and top sportsman racers run his engines. He is a perfectionist.

Raul

xx3 Best Machine. They will talk with you through the build and get the numbers right and transparent the first time. Clean, knowledgeable Mopar shop with a in-house dyno mill to trigger your motor before it leaves the premises.
I lug all the way from New York for them. Way over 250 miles, but I also go to Detroit a few times a year.

BES...PERIOD!

Call Dave Bruns, Mid America racing Engines, Washington, Ia. 319-653-6282.
He does lots of Mopar, machine work or full build. He has a dyno also.

What do you think a stroker 400 with TF heads that makes good power, and lasts for years should cost?

I mean no offense by saying this, but the labor rate you must charge to keep smart, and capable guys dictates 15,000 dollar short blocks. 6 out of ten "race shops" shouldn't build law mower engines. Either they don't know, don't care, or they need to steal to support racing, or drugs/lifestyle.

Going on to say, another problem is great shops often have zero concept of time. The shop that delivers quality, on time is worth paying near double the going rate.

We only have so many days of health sufficient to race/hotrod. That time is worth 10 times a few extra shekels to guys that earn it.

SAD but too TRUE! How many of us have been in machine shop or chassis prison!

I was planning to use Kilpatrick Engine and Trans in Waukesha, WI.
http://www.kilpatrickengine.com/
I don't have any direct experience other than they seem to have done a good job on my 727TF at a good price. I've not been able to find anything negative and folks I've have talked to that used him were happy. He speaks Mopar, runs a sub 7 second 63 Polara, and seemed to have a well equipped shop.

When I first got into this, I asked my machinist if he knew Mopars. He said "It's a chunk of iron, it doesn't know what it is". I've never questioned him again, and never had a problem with his work.

I don't know any good machine shops local to you but the $15K number isn't out of line for a stroker build using all new parts. The last few engines I did were closer to $20K for parts and labor but they had upgrades such as ported intakes, high dollar oiling systems etc. You might be able to do a high quality stroker build for $10K if you have some parts left over from a previous build and if you stay flat tappet cam. As soon as you go with a roller cam the budget goes up a big chunk.

That is true to some extent but it is nice to work with a shop that knows enough about Mopars to know where to buy stuff. A really good machinist who only works on Chevy engines probably won't know where to buy special Mopar parts and tools. He might not even know they exist. And he probably won't know little tricks like using AMC lifters for pushrod oiling or where to find billet rear main seals and stuff like that. Even Mopar guys don't know a lot of these tricks which is why there are about 100 questions a day posted to this board.

My thought wasn't on whether the shops that don't do much Mopar work can do it correctly, as much as are they familiar with some of the common mods (e.g., enlarging the BB oil system passages) that the more experienced shops do as a matter of course.

EDIT: Funny thing I found is that the shops that aren't "Mopar Only" are also more open to options on how/what can be built. Example: Every "Mopar" machine shop I've spoken or dealt with has been very firm on whether they'll upgrade with aluminum main caps vs steel main caps, and/or use girdles. Pretty much NO middle ground, despite any experiences or observations you can provide them that goes against their philosophy.

The non-Mopar shop that's done my last couple of rounds of block work is perfectly willing to listen to the pros & cons about both approaches. In the end, he thought my idea of using aluminum main caps for the "shock absorption" benefit along w/ a girdle to stabilize the caps was a pretty good idea, given what he knew -- or we talked about -- are the deficiencies of OEM RB blocks. I think his comment was: "I don't see any downside to doing both".

A couple of local shops who do a lot of engines call me if they have a customer who wants a Mopar stroker engine built. These guys are so busy building engines all day long that they don't have time to research what is available. One guy just always used Indy heads since that was all he knew about until I showed him a set of Trick Flows. Once he saw the Trick Flow heads he switched.

If the customer doesn't know much about Mopar engines and he goes to a shop that doesn't know much about Mopar engines then the end result might be really generic. Even if the machine work is perfect, the engine might not perform great, or it might cost more than it needs to.

Does the shop knows that Molnar makes Mopar cranks or do they only know about 440Source? Do they know that Mahle has Mopar stroker pistons with a metric ring pack or do they just order the Icon pistons? Good engine builders tend to be in high demand which means they are super busy. Probably too busy to spend several hours researching all the options for an engine that they don't see very often.

IMO if you pick a place that knows nothing about ANYTHING Mopar then you picked the wrong place. I have NEVER used a "Mopar" shop and I think the results speak for themselves. Don't understand why some insist the only place that can build a Mopar is a "Mopar" shop.

The OP lives close to one of the BEST shops in the country. They have fast Pontiacs, Buicks, Oldsmobiles, Chevys, Fords and yes Mopars. In fact the fastest FSS car in the world was built there. A good shop is a good shop. Not to say places like Best, Barton, Marsh, Hensley, Kammer and Kammer, FBO, etc are not very good at what they do, and if I was close to one I would consider using them. But just using your local "mopar" guy may not get you the BEST results in your area. I used a Winston West builder when I was in NorCal for machine work, passing over the local "mopar guru" and was not disappointed one bit

Well, I generally bring the machinist all my parts, Crank, rods, pistons, etc. Only thing he picks out are the rings, and bearings. My heads have usually been sent off to Dwayne Porter, and I've assembled the long block.

I'm not a fan of using someone 200 miles away, when a local guy does nice work, and gives me good advice. When I have had a problem, he took care of it right away. Would he do that if I wasn't local, and had not used him before? Probably not.

not even a question
go to BES in Indiana or BEST in Michigan

Consider AUTO MACHINE, St. Charles, IL

Kim (front desk), and family owned, Jim DeBates and crew... they can do it all; have top quality machining equipment... very good to talk with, great long term business reputation! I recently had my short block built there. Highly respected from the AERA.

One major problem that is growing is that many shops are finding difficulty in keeping long-term machinists with experience... unless they pay well, then the people leave and find another career.... something other than machine-shop engine work. In fact, many shops have actually gone down to 2-3-4-5 ppl shops. They can afford to pick their work that comes to them.

Its also a growing industry problem teaching new machinists... many younger students would rather work on a keyboard/PC, making an easy $50-60-75K up etc... instead of in a machine shop building, measuring and machining an engine.... and getting their hands a little dirty. Just ask any long-term established shop... they'll tell you all about this issue. As well as finding good reliable workers that'll show up on established work days.. and be clean and sober, etc.

True thank you to everyone above. You helped a fellow Moparian in need. I appreciate it.

I already have the machined, heads, block, intake...Hughes wanted to start all over and go with an entirely "their" engine. Thats not what I wanted to do.

Ok, that's part of the problem. No way in HELL would I go back and work with another shops machine work. Absolutely no way. Now I get why Hughes wanted to start over. Just because someone does something doesn't mean I do it that way. I see guys spend a bunch of time and money on oiling mods that doesn't do anything. And that's just a start.

I won't touch another shops work.

Now your OP makes sense. I would do it Hughes way myself. I'd tell you I'll start over or not do it.

Folks really seem to hate cleaning up someone else's mess more than anything else. They all prefer to start fresh, and I can't blame 'em.

It's probably going to be kind of tough to find anyone who will assemble/build it and assume responsibility for it at the same time....unless they machined it too.

I hope you find a solution to this and aren't discouraged by it.

Yeah that makes it tough since now you've taken the profit out of it for a machine shop but you have also made it the shops problem if the parts are machined wrong. You're going to have to find someone who is willing to accept a box full of machined parts on faith that they were done correctly. If you are also on a budget then that becomes almost an impossible job for a shop to take on.

You could always assemble it yourself, It’s not brain surgery. Reading some of these posts makes it sound harder than it is.

Might cost you a few specialty tools, but it's a learning experience. Although I can't do my own head & block machining, I do all the assembly now. Only way that I'll know how it went together, especially after an experience or two where "professional" engine builders really let me down.

You mean like how my "finish machined" .040" OS block was taken out to .055" 'cuz the 2nd shop didn't like the work done by the 1st shop?

I’m pretty sure Markz528 brought BES a pile of previously machined stuff that had issues, and they didn’t seem to have any qualms about going through it and making it work.

If there is something left to work with and the customer is willing to pay then yes, you can follow another shops work. It's my experience that 99% of the people say they'll pay and then the sniveling starts.

All of this is true, in fact I've switched trades recently as well. J.Rob

Boy maybe I'm lucky. My recipe. Research what works for your desired combo. Send the pistons to the machine shop. Have it bored and honed to fit. Check line hone. Repair as nec. Deck as necessary. Make sure pistons, rods crank and cam clear each other. Check bearing clearance and adjust. Have the heads done by a reputable head guy. Check P to V. Trial fit valve train. Order correct push rods. Notch pistons as required. Balance assy. Assemble. If you can't or don't want to learn these steps and purchase the tools to do it. Then spend the $ and wait the time for a big name shop. Correctly done the result will be the same. Just a different time line and $.
Doug

Hell yes to the learning experience, agreed...
I also believe in doing this yourself wherever possible.

Gearheads are pretty diverse, myself I'd not push anyone in that kind of direction unless they were curious about it and had the desire.

OK, I have to weigh in here. I used a “Mopar” shop, with a good reputation, (mentioned on this post) to build my Mega Block HEMI. It used oil at an alarming rate right from the start. Here is what I found out and what I would, and did, ask when I was looking for the shop to fix the problems I found when I took the engine apart.

THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION IS: How do you measure components? For instance, how do you verify the TRUE bore center? How do you measure the concentric and proper angle of the bore to the crank centerline? Most shops will just tell you that they go off the center of the existing bore.

Here is why this is so important. 1. Cylinder bore to piston clearance was TWICE what Diamond recommended.
2. Valve to guide clearance was .006”! (At least one of the heads was brand new out to the box)! But worst of all, they had no means of measuring the actual rod length, compression height, or deck height. So, they cut the deck .050” too far.
Result, pistons contacting the heads!

Upon further investigation, I found out that they not only did not have a fixture to properly center the bore, THEY DIDN’T EVEN OWN TORQUE PLATES FOR BORING A HEMI!

How did I discover this? I found the shop that they “borrowed” plates from. Guess what? The shop did not have the plates loaned out when my engine was being worked on.

I service manufacturing machine shops for a living. The good ones ALL have the ability to measure within four decimal places. Automotive machine shops too often “guess”.

So my engine is at a shop that builds ALL brands of engines. But do you know what? They have a boring fixture for a PACKARD V12! Why? Because they had to build one and wanted the bore to be properly oriented to the crank centerline!

Oh, and I have a work sheet that shows the EXACT distance of the stroke, jurnal diameter, angle of crank throws, rod length, piston compression height and DECK HEIGHT! Etc.

In closing, ask how they measure their work. Do they know what the “Datum” is? (The point of reference from which measuremnts are taken) Do they SHOW you, what everything measures? Most importantly, CAN THEY MEASURE AT ALL!!!!!!!

Coming to Ohio in the near future

Learned long ago to check everything myself before assembling. I don't care who machined it. Anybody can make a mistake. If I have a failure, it's on me or a component. Many years without a failure.
Doug

Understood, but it always felt like a natural progression to me.

Thanks for the info guys - I've got 5 more recommended shops to start with now - those options were really the only new info that I was seeking. I do appreciate all the extra context, it was interesting getting everyone else's opinions. Appreciate the conversations. Peace and good luck this season!

Chuck

I will never have another engine completely built by a shop after what i have found wrong with machine work i have sent out locally. One well known shop just tagged a block as align honed as requested. It was never touched. A set of stock rods came back "resized" and one of the rods had a ding in the rodcap, wouldn't allow it to seat against the rod! This was a well known, trusted shop and i suspect they had a personel problem! So for the cost of the tools to assemble both heads and shortblock, you will be even or maybe save some $$. When I suggest someone do this, along with that goes get a shop manual for the stock motor, (bb right?) ANDYF'S book, and any other well repected books on the motor in question. Take time to learn how to use the measuring tools. Must haves- micrometers, dial bore gauge, valve spring compressor and hieght gauge, dial indicater, to mention some. It takes me a LONG time to screw a motor together, because of all the measuring, checking, double checking i do to make ABSOLUTELY certain i did tighten all those rod bolts correctly, and all the time it can take if you need to FIX something, like when my "lineboared" block cam back and the main caps were off .0005 side to side when i measured the bores for bearing crush.
You will have the support of this web board to help ensure you are doing things right, as well. No question is too dumb to ask either!!

....let that be a lesson to all.

On the other side of the coin, it's possible for an aspiring gearhead to acquire a few tools and spend the time on it...verifying an awful, awful lot.

Maybe not with "super duper, world renowned famous race engine builder" type of accuracy, but certainly with enough accuracy to tell if somebody smoked his lunch that day and screwed it up.

For 1. A 5" mic (piston) and a low line import dial bore gauge (cylinder) will give you piston to wall within a few tenths or so. No, it won't give you .0001 resolution...but what it can do is tell you if you're in a safe ballpark range that makes sense. And the gauge will come in handy for checking other things out.

For 2. a 1" mic to measure valve stems and a small hole gauge for your valve guides will give you stem to guide clearance with similar resolution.

...Enough to know whether to send it back or run it.

I'm talking about maybe a 200 dollar expenditure, and a little bit of practice to do a minimal check to see if things are making sense.

It's possible to CC your own heads (or in the case of the hemi, CC your piston domes 1" down) with about $5 worth of tools. It will get you within 2cc or so and is plenty accurate for a home hot rodder. There is no reason you need lab quality/durable stuff for something you might use once every 7 years.

I feel this book is still relevant and useful:
https://www.amazon.com/Engine-Blueprinting-Rick-Voegelin/dp/0931472210

MY 2 cents. together I have been an automotive technician and technical instructor teaching engine rebuilding for 45 years. I have a home shop and I build engines for people. I do about 10 engines a year. First a big name engine builder does not guarantee you anything. I have freshened and fixed several engines from those big name builders. Taking the time to measure and check things is what makes the difference. Time is money and when they are building enough engines to make payroll and the bills things get rushed. And I get many people who bring me a pile of parts, and I assemble the engine, sometimes I call them and say this and that are junk, but that's the way it is. Second when you buy that pile of parts, you determine how much HP it will make, the assembler just makes sure it will stay together. Picking the parts and giving the specs to the machine shop you want them to be, is the secret to making power. Kocking on wood my NSS 514 engine has 600 runs and ii is on the stand for freshening and it looks like new inside. Valve springs lost 30 lbs and one exhaust valve is bad. It runs 9.7's And I just have a metal building out in the woods.

Rhyne Racing just across the boarder in Indiana.
I just had them do all my machining top notch work.
Sonic tested my cylinders and they moved the bore a little on two cylinders to keep the walls thick as possible.
They are known for circle track engines but they know Mopars very well. Keith

I have a chebby guy assemble my motors. He takes my junk and makes it work. Doesn't know squat about Mopars. Ie... built a 408 stroker (now internal balance) out of his friends 360 and bought a 360 ATI balancer for a 360, then machined it to get the balance to work. LOL. I had to give him the oil filter adapter for the TTIs to work on that early A. And the hard to get boly, and the impossible to get oil filter gaskets.

This guy makes 266" SB chebbys make over 750HP @ over 10K RPM and has won Comp Elim a bunch of times. Local, and willing to work on junk and make it run.