Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2593616
12/18/18 05:55 AM
12/18/18 05:55 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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I have my idle about 1000 in gear because with my converter it drops to much if I lower it much more. I had Dwayne nitride my cam because he did recommend it and I felt the EDM lifters with the oil hole on the bottom sounded like a good idea. And so far its worked great since I first fired her up in June 2011 . Dwayne also recommended I stay with the flat tappet since I told him I plan to drive it a lot on the street and did not want to pull my lifters at 3000 or more miles to have them checked over if I had gone with a solid roller. And of course I don't have to run all that spring pressure and change my springs as often as a solid roller as my springs are about 140 on the seat and around 350 open. I admit as I get older I like having to do less maintenance on my car. In my younger years I enjoyed it more. Now my mind enjoys it as much but my body not as much. Its a bummer getting older. LoL. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 12/18/18 05:56 AM.
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: 383man]
#2593728
12/18/18 01:31 PM
12/18/18 01:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
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https://www.bizol.com/company/education/lubricant-knowledge-base/why-synthetic-motor-oil/If the synthetic oil has a viscosity index that is high enough, VI improvers need not be added. In any case, synthetic oils need much less VI improver than mineral oils. The problem with VI improvers is they tend to shear down with use and lose viscosity at high temperatures. Years and years ago GM had a problem with people using 10W-40 with subsequent engine failure. That was late '70s early '80s. They determined that the VI improvers were coming apart under high stress loads, like in the 350 Diesel, and the oil would lose viscosity and allow metal-to-metal contact. I believe there was even a warning put in owners manuals that if using 10W-40 oil, the warranty was void. R.
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: dogdays]
#2593733
12/18/18 01:41 PM
12/18/18 01:41 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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https://www.bizol.com/company/education/lubricant-knowledge-base/why-synthetic-motor-oil/If the synthetic oil has a viscosity index that is high enough, VI improvers need not be added. In any case, synthetic oils need much less VI improver than mineral oils. The problem with VI improvers is they tend to shear down with use and lose viscosity at high temperatures. Years and years ago GM had a problem with people using 10W-40 with subsequent engine failure. That was late '70s early '80s. They determined that the VI improvers were coming apart under high stress loads, like in the 350 Diesel, and the oil would lose viscosity and allow metal-to-metal contact. I believe there was even a warning put in owners manuals that if using 10W-40 oil, the warranty was void. R. I just read the first bit as I don't have time to read it all right now. The curious thing is in Germany it's agains the law to palm off as synthetic oil stuff that is NOT synthetic. I've never seen a real Group IV synthetic oil work with alcohol fuels, but the group III oils will. That's because they are not really synthetic oils. It also stated that Group IV oils (PAO's) are gasoline based. I thought they were natural gas based or alcohol based. Again, I have to check my sources. I may be confusing the Ester based stuff with PAO's. The reason why it's legal in the US to call an oil synthetic when it isn't can be traced to a lawsuit that went to SCOTUS and a bunch of moron judges who've never lifted a hood let alone looked at a can of oil for purchase decided that refined hydrocarbons are indeed synthetic!!! That literally makes all oil a synthetic of sorts. The courts should have stayed the hell out of it, but there was money to be made (I should say money to made by the snooker) and in the end, the big money paid enough to grease the skid and make what is not, real.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2593896
12/18/18 06:26 PM
12/18/18 06:26 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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Judgments that cost an industry (Dow Corning) billions, no proof offered as to causation: silicone breast implants.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2594106
12/19/18 03:02 AM
12/19/18 03:02 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319 Puyallup, WA
StealthWedge67
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
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My Engle flat tappet cam is going on 10 years now with no issues. I use the matching springs from Engle, they are doubles and offer 150 & 350 lbs respectively. I’ve been using Lucas “HotRod” 10w-30 along with a zinc additive for years, after breaking it in on JoeGibs BR-30. I used to see a lot of posts about cams going flat, but not so much anymore. I think for a while the oils were not up to the task, and many of us were uneducated about it. Now most of us understand the differences in oils needed to run a flat tappet cam.
LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2594129
12/19/18 06:44 AM
12/19/18 06:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785 Utah and Alaska
astjp2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785
Utah and Alaska
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Why not a solid roller, less weight and you can still do pushrod oiling...and the cost is not through the roof. Tim
1941 Taylorcraft 1968 Charger 1994 Wrangler 1998 Wrangler 2008 Kia Rio 2017 Jetta
I didn't do 4 years and 9 months of Graduate School to be called Mister!
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2594202
12/19/18 12:49 PM
12/19/18 12:49 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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An auxiliary spring does most of what a hydraulic does: take the slack out of the valve train so the roller needles don't come crashing down constantly at idle. Getting the roller up to speed every time it touches down is a bad thing. Don't thank me, the idea is pre-WW2. Why not now? It costs $8.00 on a production line that the stockholders don't get.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: StealthWedge67]
#2594373
12/19/18 06:42 PM
12/19/18 06:42 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,183 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,183
Bend,OR USA
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I seem to remember all the cam company having to buy imported solid flat tappet and flat tappet hydraulic lifters as the real reason for all the cam failures back then. I heard the cam companies blaming the removal of Zinc from the oils as causing all those problem I also seem to remember hearing that those issues ended up with Jonhsion (SP?) Controls getting back into making all of those better quality type lifter back here in the U.S.A Maybe I'm mistaken again
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 12/19/18 07:05 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: astjp2]
#2594454
12/19/18 10:04 PM
12/19/18 10:04 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,554 Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,554
Rittman Ohio
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Why not a solid roller, less weight and you can still do pushrod oiling...and the cost is not through the roof. Tim A solid roller doesn't like to idle,I guess not enough oil to the roller from what I've read. I was on the fence when I built this engine years ago roller or solid. From what I have researched the Hydraulic roller keeps constant pressure on the lobe instead of banging the roller every time the ramp comes with a solid roller. I could be wrong but this issue has been beat to death on many many forums. I think I may be going back to a flat solid just for the simple fact I have other uses for $1000 and I like the way a flat solid revs with a stick car. Now I have to pick a grind or have one custom ground Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2594455
12/19/18 10:09 PM
12/19/18 10:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499
So. Burlington, Vt.
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Now I have to pick a grind or have one custom ground And........ buy new springs.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2594491
12/19/18 11:42 PM
12/19/18 11:42 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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Hydraulic roller keeps constant pressure on the lobe That's the idea. Is there ever a point where the lobe shape is so violent that, at idle, oil pressure cannot keep the tappet inflated and it develops lash anyway? Who knows.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: polyspheric]
#2594515
12/20/18 12:30 AM
12/20/18 12:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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An auxiliary spring does most of what a hydraulic does: take the slack out of the valve train so the roller needles don't come crashing down constantly at idle. Getting the roller up to speed every time it touches down is a bad thing. Don't thank me, the idea is pre-WW2. Why not now? It costs $8.00 on a production line that the stockholders don't get. I forgot what they were called (brain dead today)…...rev kit ?? Where a spring is on top of the lifter to help hold it against the cam. I saw that setup on a Pontiac Super Stock eng back around 1970. I saw one on a solid roller car some years back also. But I don't seem to see or hear much about people using them kits today as they seem like a good idea. Ron
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2594552
12/20/18 02:21 AM
12/20/18 02:21 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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Yes, rev kit, Comp sells a weak spring specifically for this but you need a fixture to position the spring against the bottom of the head surface. It only adds about 30 lbs. to the tappet (but adds nothing to the valve side). OEM on the Chevy L6 pre-WW2.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: mopardamo]
#2594581
12/20/18 04:41 AM
12/20/18 04:41 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,464 Sydney,Australia
tex013
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,464
Sydney,Australia
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Tex013 from what I see that is a metallurgical issue with the foundry. Yes the lifters would be like new. Maybe even help their life in certain situations. Oil pocket holes in the casting to provide some backup supply. Tex
New best ET 10.259@129.65 . New best MPH 130.32 Finally fitted a solid cam, stepped it up a bit more 3690lbs through the mufflers New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm Power by Tex's Automotive
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2594647
12/20/18 12:51 PM
12/20/18 12:51 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,013 South Park, Pa.
68LAR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,013
South Park, Pa.
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Why not a solid roller, less weight and you can still do pushrod oiling...and the cost is not through the roof. Tim A solid roller doesn't like to idle,I guess not enough oil to the roller from what I've read. I was on the fence when I built this engine years ago roller or solid. From what I have researched the Hydraulic roller keeps constant pressure on the lobe instead of banging the roller every time the ramp comes with a solid roller. I could be wrong but this issue has been beat to death on many many forums. I think I may be going back to a flat solid just for the simple fact I have other uses for $1000 and I like the way a flat solid revs with a stick car. Now I have to pick a grind or have one custom ground Gus Gus, I wish I was smart enough to know how to post a picture of my cam card, but I'm not. Here are the specs of my cam. It is a Scott Brown custom grind that has worked and is still working for me after almost 9 years. SFT cam. LOBE .398/.395 LIFT .597/.593 with 1.5 rockers .633/.626 with 1.6 rockers DURATION 259/266 C/L 109 INSTALLED AT 105 SPRING PRESSURE 145/350 I use 1.6 stainless rockers I use Comp Cams spring 928. They have a seat of 135 and open at 375. Double spring with damper. This combo works very well for a street/strip heavy stick car. I also use Rotilla 15w40 oil, with STP.
4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: 68LAR]
#2594723
12/20/18 04:20 PM
12/20/18 04:20 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Why not a solid roller, less weight and you can still do pushrod oiling...and the cost is not through the roof. Tim A solid roller doesn't like to idle,I guess not enough oil to the roller from what I've read. I was on the fence when I built this engine years ago roller or solid. From what I have researched the Hydraulic roller keeps constant pressure on the lobe instead of banging the roller every time the ramp comes with a solid roller. I could be wrong but this issue has been beat to death on many many forums. I think I may be going back to a flat solid just for the simple fact I have other uses for $1000 and I like the way a flat solid revs with a stick car. Now I have to pick a grind or have one custom ground Gus Gus, I wish I was smart enough to know how to post a picture of my cam card, but I'm not. Here are the specs of my cam. It is a Scott Brown custom grind that has worked and is still working for me after almost 9 years. SFT cam. LOBE .398/.395 LIFT .597/.593 with 1.5 rockers .633/.626 with 1.6 rockers DURATION 259/266 C/L 109 INSTALLED AT 105 SPRING PRESSURE 145/350 I use 1.6 stainless rockers I use Comp Cams spring 928. They have a seat of 135 and open at 375. Double spring with damper. This combo works very well for a street/strip heavy stick car. I also use Rotilla 15w40 oil, with STP. That is almost my exact combination. Except I'm 105 on a 105 and my springs cam from Doug Herbert and mine don't have the dampener. What is your seat to seat timing if you don't mind????
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: madscientist]
#2594726
12/20/18 04:25 PM
12/20/18 04:25 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,013 South Park, Pa.
68LAR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,013
South Park, Pa.
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Why not a solid roller, less weight and you can still do pushrod oiling...and the cost is not through the roof. Tim A solid roller doesn't like to idle,I guess not enough oil to the roller from what I've read. I was on the fence when I built this engine years ago roller or solid. From what I have researched the Hydraulic roller keeps constant pressure on the lobe instead of banging the roller every time the ramp comes with a solid roller. I could be wrong but this issue has been beat to death on many many forums. I think I may be going back to a flat solid just for the simple fact I have other uses for $1000 and I like the way a flat solid revs with a stick car. Now I have to pick a grind or have one custom ground Gus Gus, I wish I was smart enough to know how to post a picture of my cam card, but I'm not. Here are the specs of my cam. It is a Scott Brown custom grind that has worked and is still working for me after almost 9 years. SFT cam. LOBE .398/.395 LIFT .597/.593 with 1.5 rockers .633/.626 with 1.6 rockers DURATION 259/266 C/L 109 INSTALLED AT 105 SPRING PRESSURE 145/350 I use 1.6 stainless rockers I use Comp Cams spring 928. They have a seat of 135 and open at 375. Double spring with damper. This combo works very well for a street/strip heavy stick car. I also use Rotilla 15w40 oil, with STP. That is almost my exact combination. Except I'm 105 on a 105 and my springs cam from Doug Herbert and mine don't have the dampener. What is your seat to seat timing if you don't mind???? I really don't know. I do know that this combo is working fine for the way I drive my car.
4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
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