Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: fourgearsavoy] #2593616
12/18/18 05:55 AM
12/18/18 05:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
3
383man Offline
Too Many Posts
383man  Offline
Too Many Posts
3

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
I have my idle about 1000 in gear because with my converter it drops to much if I lower it much more. I had Dwayne nitride my cam because he did recommend it and I felt the EDM lifters with the oil hole on the bottom sounded like a good idea. And so far its worked great since I first fired her up in June 2011 . Dwayne also recommended I stay with the flat tappet since I told him I plan to drive it a lot on the street and did not want to pull my lifters at 3000 or more miles to have them checked over if I had gone with a solid roller. And of course I don't have to run all that spring pressure and change my springs as often as a solid roller as my springs are about 140 on the seat and around 350 open. I admit as I get older I like having to do less maintenance on my car. In my younger years I enjoyed it more. Now my mind enjoys it as much but my body not as much. Its a bummer getting older. LoL. Ron

Last edited by 383man; 12/18/18 05:56 AM.
Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: 383man] #2593728
12/18/18 01:31 PM
12/18/18 01:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
D
dogdays Offline
I Live Here
dogdays  Offline
I Live Here
D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
https://www.bizol.com/company/education/lubricant-knowledge-base/why-synthetic-motor-oil/

If the synthetic oil has a viscosity index that is high enough, VI improvers need not be added. In any case, synthetic oils need much less VI improver than mineral oils.

The problem with VI improvers is they tend to shear down with use and lose viscosity at high temperatures. Years and years ago GM had a problem with people using 10W-40 with subsequent engine failure. That was late '70s early '80s. They determined that the VI improvers were coming apart under high stress loads, like in the 350 Diesel, and the oil would lose viscosity and allow metal-to-metal contact. I believe there was even a warning put in owners manuals that if using 10W-40 oil, the warranty was void.

R.

Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: dogdays] #2593733
12/18/18 01:41 PM
12/18/18 01:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
M
madscientist Offline
master
madscientist  Offline
master
M

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
Originally Posted By dogdays
https://www.bizol.com/company/education/lubricant-knowledge-base/why-synthetic-motor-oil/

If the synthetic oil has a viscosity index that is high enough, VI improvers need not be added. In any case, synthetic oils need much less VI improver than mineral oils.

The problem with VI improvers is they tend to shear down with use and lose viscosity at high temperatures. Years and years ago GM had a problem with people using 10W-40 with subsequent engine failure. That was late '70s early '80s. They determined that the VI improvers were coming apart under high stress loads, like in the 350 Diesel, and the oil would lose viscosity and allow metal-to-metal contact. I believe there was even a warning put in owners manuals that if using 10W-40 oil, the warranty was void.

R.


I just read the first bit as I don't have time to read it all right now.

The curious thing is in Germany it's agains the law to palm off as synthetic oil stuff that is NOT synthetic. I've never seen a real Group IV synthetic oil work with alcohol fuels, but the group III oils will. That's because they are not really synthetic oils.

It also stated that Group IV oils (PAO's) are gasoline based. I thought they were natural gas based or alcohol based. Again, I have to check my sources. I may be confusing the Ester based stuff with PAO's.

The reason why it's legal in the US to call an oil synthetic when it isn't can be traced to a lawsuit that went to SCOTUS and a bunch of moron judges who've never lifted a hood let alone looked at a can of oil for purchase decided that refined hydrocarbons are indeed synthetic!!!

That literally makes all oil a synthetic of sorts. The courts should have stayed the hell out of it, but there was money to be made (I should say money to made by the snooker) and in the end, the big money paid enough to grease the skid and make what is not, real.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: fourgearsavoy] #2593896
12/18/18 06:26 PM
12/18/18 06:26 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,205
New York
polyspheric Offline
master
polyspheric  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,205
New York
Judgments that cost an industry (Dow Corning) billions, no proof offered as to causation: silicone breast implants.


Boffin Emeritus
Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: fourgearsavoy] #2594106
12/19/18 03:02 AM
12/19/18 03:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
S
StealthWedge67 Offline
master
StealthWedge67  Offline
master
S

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
My Engle flat tappet cam is going on 10 years now with no issues. I use the matching springs from Engle, they are doubles and offer 150 & 350 lbs respectively. I’ve been using Lucas “HotRod” 10w-30 along with a zinc additive for years, after breaking it in on JoeGibs BR-30. I used to see a lot of posts about cams going flat, but not so much anymore. I think for a while the oils were not up to the task, and many of us were uneducated about it. Now most of us understand the differences in oils needed to run a flat tappet cam.


LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: fourgearsavoy] #2594129
12/19/18 06:44 AM
12/19/18 06:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785
Utah and Alaska
astjp2 Offline
master
astjp2  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785
Utah and Alaska
Why not a solid roller, less weight and you can still do pushrod oiling...and the cost is not through the roof. Tim


1941 Taylorcraft
1968 Charger
1994 Wrangler
1998 Wrangler
2008 Kia Rio
2017 Jetta

I didn't do 4 years and 9 months of Graduate School to be called Mister!
Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: fourgearsavoy] #2594202
12/19/18 12:49 PM
12/19/18 12:49 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,205
New York
polyspheric Offline
master
polyspheric  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,205
New York
An auxiliary spring does most of what a hydraulic does: take the slack out of the valve train so the roller needles don't come crashing down constantly at idle. Getting the roller up to speed every time it touches down is a bad thing.
Don't thank me, the idea is pre-WW2. Why not now? It costs $8.00 on a production line that the stockholders don't get.


Boffin Emeritus
Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: StealthWedge67] #2594373
12/19/18 06:42 PM
12/19/18 06:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
I seem to remember all the cam company having to buy imported solid flat tappet and flat tappet hydraulic lifters as the real reason for all the cam failures back then.
I heard the cam companies blaming the removal of Zinc from the oils as causing all those problem tsk I also seem to remember hearing that those issues ended up with Jonhsion (SP?) Controls getting back into making all of those better quality type lifter back here in the U.S.A shruggy work scope Maybe I'm mistaken again confused

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 12/19/18 07:05 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: astjp2] #2594454
12/19/18 10:04 PM
12/19/18 10:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,550
Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy Offline OP
I Live Here
fourgearsavoy  Offline OP
I Live Here

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,550
Rittman Ohio
Originally Posted By astjp2
Why not a solid roller, less weight and you can still do pushrod oiling...and the cost is not through the roof. Tim

A solid roller doesn't like to idle,I guess not enough oil to the roller from what I've read. I was on the fence when I built this engine years ago roller or solid. From what I have researched the Hydraulic roller keeps constant pressure on the lobe instead of banging the roller every time the ramp comes with a solid roller.
I could be wrong but this issue has been beat to death on many many forums. I think I may be going back to a flat solid just for the simple fact I have other uses for $1000 and I like the way a flat solid revs with a stick car.
Now I have to pick a grind or have one custom ground shruggy

Gus beer


64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: fourgearsavoy] #2594455
12/19/18 10:09 PM
12/19/18 10:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
fast68plymouth  Offline
I Live Here
F

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479
So. Burlington, Vt.
Quote:
Now I have to pick a grind or have one custom ground


And........ buy new springs.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: fourgearsavoy] #2594491
12/19/18 11:42 PM
12/19/18 11:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,205
New York
polyspheric Offline
master
polyspheric  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,205
New York
Hydraulic roller keeps constant pressure on the lobe
That's the idea.
Is there ever a point where the lobe shape is so violent that, at idle, oil pressure cannot keep the tappet inflated and it develops lash anyway? Who knows.


Boffin Emeritus
Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: polyspheric] #2594515
12/20/18 12:30 AM
12/20/18 12:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
3
383man Offline
Too Many Posts
383man  Offline
Too Many Posts
3

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
Originally Posted By polyspheric
An auxiliary spring does most of what a hydraulic does: take the slack out of the valve train so the roller needles don't come crashing down constantly at idle. Getting the roller up to speed every time it touches down is a bad thing.
Don't thank me, the idea is pre-WW2. Why not now? It costs $8.00 on a production line that the stockholders don't get.



I forgot what they were called (brain dead today)…...rev kit ?? Where a spring is on top of the lifter to help hold it against the cam. I saw that setup on a Pontiac Super Stock eng back around 1970. I saw one on a solid roller car some years back also. But I don't seem to see or hear much about people using them kits today as they seem like a good idea. Ron

Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: fourgearsavoy] #2594552
12/20/18 02:21 AM
12/20/18 02:21 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,205
New York
polyspheric Offline
master
polyspheric  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,205
New York
Yes, rev kit, Comp sells a weak spring specifically for this but you need a fixture to position the spring against the bottom of the head surface. It only adds about 30 lbs. to the tappet (but adds nothing to the valve side).
OEM on the Chevy L6 pre-WW2.


Boffin Emeritus
Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: fourgearsavoy] #2594569
12/20/18 03:34 AM
12/20/18 03:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,328
St. Louis, MO
mopardamo Offline
pro stock
mopardamo  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,328
St. Louis, MO
Tex013
from what I see that is a metallurgical issue with the foundry. Yes the lifters would be like new. Maybe even help their life in certain situations. Oil pocket holes in the casting to provide some backup supply.

Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: mopardamo] #2594581
12/20/18 04:41 AM
12/20/18 04:41 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,457
Sydney,Australia
tex013 Offline
top fuel
tex013  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,457
Sydney,Australia
Originally Posted By mopardamo
Tex013
from what I see that is a metallurgical issue with the foundry. Yes the lifters would be like new. Maybe even help their life in certain situations. Oil pocket holes in the casting to provide some backup supply.


whistling

Tex


New best ET 10.259@129.65 .
New best MPH 130.32
Finally fitted a solid cam,
stepped it up a bit more
3690lbs through the mufflers
New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm
Power by Tex's Automotive
Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: fourgearsavoy] #2594647
12/20/18 12:51 PM
12/20/18 12:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
68LAR Offline
master
68LAR  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
Originally Posted By fourgearsavoy
Originally Posted By astjp2
Why not a solid roller, less weight and you can still do pushrod oiling...and the cost is not through the roof. Tim

A solid roller doesn't like to idle,I guess not enough oil to the roller from what I've read. I was on the fence when I built this engine years ago roller or solid. From what I have researched the Hydraulic roller keeps constant pressure on the lobe instead of banging the roller every time the ramp comes with a solid roller.
I could be wrong but this issue has been beat to death on many many forums. I think I may be going back to a flat solid just for the simple fact I have other uses for $1000 and I like the way a flat solid revs with a stick car.
Now I have to pick a grind or have one custom ground shruggy

Gus beer



Gus, I wish I was smart enough to know how to post a picture of my cam card, but I'm not. Here are the specs of my cam. It is a Scott Brown custom grind that has worked and is still working for me after almost 9 years. SFT cam.
LOBE .398/.395
LIFT .597/.593 with 1.5 rockers .633/.626 with 1.6 rockers
DURATION 259/266
C/L 109 INSTALLED AT 105
SPRING PRESSURE 145/350
I use 1.6 stainless rockers
I use Comp Cams spring 928. They have a seat of 135 and open at 375. Double spring with damper. This combo works very well for a street/strip heavy stick car. I also use Rotilla 15w40 oil, with STP.


4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: 68LAR] #2594723
12/20/18 04:20 PM
12/20/18 04:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
M
madscientist Offline
master
madscientist  Offline
master
M

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
Originally Posted By 68LAR
Originally Posted By fourgearsavoy
Originally Posted By astjp2
Why not a solid roller, less weight and you can still do pushrod oiling...and the cost is not through the roof. Tim

A solid roller doesn't like to idle,I guess not enough oil to the roller from what I've read. I was on the fence when I built this engine years ago roller or solid. From what I have researched the Hydraulic roller keeps constant pressure on the lobe instead of banging the roller every time the ramp comes with a solid roller.
I could be wrong but this issue has been beat to death on many many forums. I think I may be going back to a flat solid just for the simple fact I have other uses for $1000 and I like the way a flat solid revs with a stick car.
Now I have to pick a grind or have one custom ground shruggy

Gus beer



Gus, I wish I was smart enough to know how to post a picture of my cam card, but I'm not. Here are the specs of my cam. It is a Scott Brown custom grind that has worked and is still working for me after almost 9 years. SFT cam.
LOBE .398/.395
LIFT .597/.593 with 1.5 rockers .633/.626 with 1.6 rockers
DURATION 259/266
C/L 109 INSTALLED AT 105
SPRING PRESSURE 145/350
I use 1.6 stainless rockers
I use Comp Cams spring 928. They have a seat of 135 and open at 375. Double spring with damper. This combo works very well for a street/strip heavy stick car. I also use Rotilla 15w40 oil, with STP.




That is almost my exact combination. Except I'm 105 on a 105 and my springs cam from Doug Herbert and mine don't have the dampener.

What is your seat to seat timing if you don't mind????


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: madscientist] #2594726
12/20/18 04:25 PM
12/20/18 04:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
68LAR Offline
master
68LAR  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
Originally Posted By madscientist
Originally Posted By 68LAR
Originally Posted By fourgearsavoy
Originally Posted By astjp2
Why not a solid roller, less weight and you can still do pushrod oiling...and the cost is not through the roof. Tim

A solid roller doesn't like to idle,I guess not enough oil to the roller from what I've read. I was on the fence when I built this engine years ago roller or solid. From what I have researched the Hydraulic roller keeps constant pressure on the lobe instead of banging the roller every time the ramp comes with a solid roller.
I could be wrong but this issue has been beat to death on many many forums. I think I may be going back to a flat solid just for the simple fact I have other uses for $1000 and I like the way a flat solid revs with a stick car.
Now I have to pick a grind or have one custom ground shruggy

Gus beer



Gus, I wish I was smart enough to know how to post a picture of my cam card, but I'm not. Here are the specs of my cam. It is a Scott Brown custom grind that has worked and is still working for me after almost 9 years. SFT cam.
LOBE .398/.395
LIFT .597/.593 with 1.5 rockers .633/.626 with 1.6 rockers
DURATION 259/266
C/L 109 INSTALLED AT 105
SPRING PRESSURE 145/350
I use 1.6 stainless rockers
I use Comp Cams spring 928. They have a seat of 135 and open at 375. Double spring with damper. This combo works very well for a street/strip heavy stick car. I also use Rotilla 15w40 oil, with STP.




That is almost my exact combination. Except I'm 105 on a 105 and my springs cam from Doug Herbert and mine don't have the dampener.

What is your seat to seat timing if you don't mind????


I really don't know. I do know that this combo is working fine for the way I drive my car.


4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: fourgearsavoy] #2594729
12/20/18 04:30 PM
12/20/18 04:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
M
madscientist Offline
master
madscientist  Offline
master
M

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
68LAR I sent you a PM.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Rocker ratio questions [Re: madscientist] #2594755
12/20/18 05:58 PM
12/20/18 05:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
68LAR Offline
master
68LAR  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
Got it and replied


4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1