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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: mccannix]
#256780
03/19/09 01:58 PM
03/19/09 01:58 PM
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Posts: 101
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AllTrim Plus
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: AllTrim Plus]
#256781
03/19/09 03:01 PM
03/19/09 03:01 PM
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Posts: 1,711
USA
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David Walden
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David Walden
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Quote:
colors match?
???????????
Why ignore the pristine NOS side by side comparisons and counter with old, dilapidated examples to prove a point? Lets concentrate on the picture you posted and continue with that train of thought. The grill and shaker does not match just like the hood and fender paint does not match. There are areas within the same painted body panels that do not match in and of themselves. The door and fender paint does not match the front bumper paint! Using your posted photo and logic, should we also conclude that the paint applied at the factory did not match between the various body panels? Isn’t the grill opening an area that would have been exposed to 40 years of dirt and soot being pulled in by the radiator fan? Why use a grass stained, filthy dirty, 40 year old grill in an attempt to validate or promote a “new” paint appearance from the factory? I guess if you search long and hard enough, you can find anything to support a hypothesis.
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: AllTrim Plus]
#256782
03/19/09 03:32 PM
03/19/09 03:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,161
DELAWARE
TONY_DAGOSTINO
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Quote:
so why not just post pics of your grille and bezels side by side to you shaker for everyone to see, not just me.
hereis a pic of mike ross' survivor 70 cuda, very very original car, that hadnt any paint work (i took these pics while there last year)
whether these pics show it or not (a flash was used)
the DARK argent grille + shaker bubble were a dead on match
mikes car is a great example to use as it was always garage kept + wasnt subject to the elements, so there was any, or much of any, fading or wear
hope mike doesnt mind me posting pics of his car,
which by the way is a great great car + even better for reference and learning from.
its what i refer to as an answer machine!
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: ECS]
#256783
03/19/09 03:48 PM
03/19/09 03:48 PM
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AllTrim Plus
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dave W. i am only providing the comparison as a possiblity, and as a reference since and above all because Mike Ross wont/cant (CHDKS). I am not ignoring the NOS parts as an option of possiblities/ facts i have seen many inoperson form 67-74 parts), but need to reiterate, they are different (more so) than production line installed parts. I have even acknowledged that this is the first time in 20 plus years of doing this, that ANYONE has ever provided the two parts from REAL production line installed parts to compare to. To further iterate i am not questioning and am not so color blind that i can see they appear to be the same, I just want more for personal curiousity and to delve beneath the 30 year old surface and to the base origins. (does that sound like how you research stuff?) funny you being one of the people that preach this from your poduim as gospel, yet want to use NOS as example of what a part installed on a car 10 years eralier should look like. (were you fortunate enough to have your valiant NOS grille look exactly like your production line installed car? please post side by side pics). I am not denying there are differences and variances of the original base shades, based on: time, date, pressure, atmosphere, mix, blah blah blah. I am NOW AT THIS POINT only questioning the experience of one who will not contribute to this in with phyiscal matter and just provides salesman hype and marketing flair rather than experience of 20 plus years hands on experience dealing with original formulas. THE ONLY ONE's EVER OFFERED BY THE OE MFG IN LIQUID FORM everything i am talking about all goes back to that, and after 20 plus years of seeing and hearing this beat to death, with unfounded in correct information, it is to the point where i am not going to care any more so much that why bother try to help provide knowledg to the overall goal of providng history for others to use... since the way the market (sheople), absorb info like: "it come's from someone who has bought there way into the market... so it must be correct cause i like them, and their dog and pony show more than the other guy"... any way Dave i like seeing some of your posts even you go overboard with your passion, as you appear to have done the physical hands on reasearch vs some of the others that claim or think they are above it all. BTW and since you stuck you foot in it, your shaker on the black car appears to be from the pic, Gibson gray is thay correct?)  Mike edit: PS dave, can you not see that even with regard to age, the pigments/hue/shade of the two parts are night/day, black/ white, silver/gray, DIFFERENT! Sureley with your abilities unlike Mike you are able to see that?
Last edited by AllTrim Plus; 03/19/09 05:41 PM.
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: TONY_DAGOSTINO]
#256784
03/19/09 03:51 PM
03/19/09 03:51 PM
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Posts: 101
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Quote:
Quote:
so why not just post pics of your grille and bezels side by side to you shaker for everyone to see, not just me.
hereis a pic of mike ross' survivor 70 cuda, very very original car, that hadnt any paint work (i took these pics while there last year)
whether these pics show it or not (a flash was used)
the DARK argent grille + shaker bubble were a dead on match
mikes car is a great example to use as it was always garage kept + wasnt subject to the elements, so there was any, or much of any, fading or wear
hope mike doesnt mind me posting pics of his car,
which by the way is a great great car + even better for reference and learning from.
its what i refer to as an answer machine!
Tony isnt mikes car a hemi car??
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: AllTrim Plus]
#256786
03/19/09 04:11 PM
03/19/09 04:11 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,923
Medina, Ohio
HEMICUDA
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,923
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Quote:
here are two cans of NOS Paint, whats the differences
Even “NOS Paint” will NOT have the same physical or visual properties that it did when it was newly formulated. Unless someone can go back in time to substantiate the absolutes that you request, it is a moot point. The best anyone can do is search for the facts and have the sense to recognize them as they come across them. Instead, we have the reoccurring problem of people who re write history in an attempt to simplify the process or accommodate their pointed agenda.
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: AllTrim Plus]
#256787
03/19/09 04:12 PM
03/19/09 04:12 PM
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: AllTrim Plus]
#256789
03/19/09 05:48 PM
03/19/09 05:48 PM
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Posts: 1,711
USA
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David Walden
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David Walden
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Quote:
funny you being one of the people that preach this from your poduim as gospel
Hello Mike! You definitely have me confused with another fellow enthusiast by the fact that I have NEVER preached ANY procedure with an absolute certainty. I have stated many times that the only definite procedures in this hobby are riddled with variations and inconsistencies. Take the comment you made about paint never seeing the light of day. A chemical/paint liquid formula begins to "break down" from the day it is manufactured. It does not matter if it is sealed air tight. The chemical composition changes over time regardless! On this thread there have been NOS as well as factory examples posted to convey the "correct" appearances. Why try to change or dismiss the reality of what is obvious? I personally had nothing to do with ANY feature that was used to manufacture a new car in the 1970s. I simply do my best to promote and disclose the facts the way I have documented them. I try very hard to leave any preconceived notions or opinions out of the equation. Nothing additional, nothing less! I think some individuals are more concerned with being "right" or "saving face" when they offer commentary to these discussions. Having a few (or all) of the answers should never be the motivating factor for documenting, translating or sharing the truth.
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: ECS]
#256790
03/19/09 06:15 PM
03/19/09 06:15 PM
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dave you are good debater, but in the heat of the momemnt it seems you miss things that are being pointed out about how you present things, then want to argue the itnerpetations that were made about your "preachings"...
i am refering to your inference than production lunch pale parts, are better examples than NOS parts (or are you now changing your position for the sake of this discusion?), and that is all i meant by that.
Now relate that trin of thought to this discussoion about paints... would it not also apply in some however small insignificant to you way that: a wet paint in its original form be a better example to compare to a prodction line installed part that has seen minimal age and wear, than a part that was sprayed later?
besdies this is not about me being right or wrong (maybe it is for those who wont show their parts), on the subject of what colors the shakers are got, were, is, VS what color the grilles were, as there are enough facts to justify both arguments, just no one original individual that can say: yes or no, or when and how, one way or another.
so now the debate has turned to the research and mehtods used to determine the underlying origins of the base matersials not who is right or wrong about it..
do you have any direct experience with the products you can contribute to the subject rather than try to argue whether i am wrong or right?
also you did not answer the question is the shaker you have Gibson gray or not? or do you have soemthing to hide?
Last edited by AllTrim Plus; 03/19/09 06:18 PM.
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: AllTrim Plus]
#256791
03/19/09 06:58 PM
03/19/09 06:58 PM
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David Walden
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David Walden
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Hi Mike, sorry if this has seemed personal to you. We are probably saying the same things but viewing from different angles. I doubt that anyone will ever be able to comment with 100% accuracy what the different shades were like back in the day. I don't think that these paint finishes had the absolute consistencies (that we try to prove and pinpoint) even back then! All of these examples are probably "correct" in their own right. For all the great things that Mopar vendors do for this hobby, it is sad that we cannot consolidate our energies and move forward to help the cause. I want to say that I have heard many good things about your company/products and want to sincerely thank you for the contribution you have brought to the hobby. I also consider Mike Ross a good friend and a major contributor to the Chrysler restoration market. I doubt that anyone could argue the positive impact and benefit he has brought to our hobby! "Correct" in the restoration world is certainly not without many variations and interpretations!
**"also you did not answer the question is the shaker you have Gibson gray or not? or do you have soemthing to hide?"**
I didn't understand your comment/question Mike. ALL of the paints used on my vehicles were custom mixed by Steve Been and myself. NONE were purchased or used from a secondary source.
Last edited by ECS; 03/19/09 07:52 PM.
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: ECS]
#256793
03/19/09 08:11 PM
03/19/09 08:11 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 101
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AllTrim Plus
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Quote:
I didn't understand your comment/question Mike. ALL of the paints used on my vehicles were custom mixed by Steve Been and myself. NONE were purchased or used from a secondary source.
Thanks Dave, Thats what i wanted to know.
since that is the case, (only if you wnat to answer)...
did you have the original untouched scoop to reference?
and do you have pics of the original?
if no to the above, what did you use as a reference?
how did you ascertain the base pigment?
if yes how did you ascertain the base pigmnet?
when it was judged what criteria was it judged by and against?
who was/were the judge(s)? (this question is more for info along the lines of the: "directed/combined energies" comment you made to "overall better the hobby"...
so dont take any of it personally and no need to be defenisve of it, if you would rather not answer that is fine.
M
since those q's seem abrupt/pointed, let say this is not a witch hunt or attack, it is simply for contribution to the subject at hand.
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: AllTrim Plus]
#256794
03/19/09 08:45 PM
03/19/09 08:45 PM
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Posts: 1,711
USA
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David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
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Quote:
did you have the original untouched scoop to reference?
and do you have pics of the original?
if no to the above, what did you use as a reference?
The original shaker to my Cuda was gone before I ever took possession of the car. Steve had four original examples that we referenced and I provided the original paint codes that were used by Chrysler. Using those variables for references, we were able to come up with a formula that was probably representative of the original mix. Keep in mind that even our "patterned" examples had slight variations within their appearance.
One last point....you keep asking for Mike Ross to post his original examples. Didn't you see the pictures posted by Tony D. of Mike's original Six Pack vehicle? Is it really necessary that he be the person posting the photos or can we just accept the fact that the same material/proof was provided by Tony D. instead? I don't think the outcome would be any different if Mike R. were to reiterate the point by simply re-posting those same photos. 
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: AllTrim Plus]
#256796
03/19/09 09:29 PM
03/19/09 09:29 PM
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Posts: 1,711
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David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
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Quote:
I was under the impression mike ross' 70 car we have been referencing is a hemi car, and thats the one i thought he refernced in the last debate on this, and thats the one i am refering to.
Be it a Hemi, 440 Six Pack or 340 Shaker car, there was no difference with the silver paint whatsoever. Also keep in mind that the reflective properties of this particular paint were very misleading and deceptive. In direct light, the shaker bubble had a totally different look than the grill. The grill is relatively enclosed and the large metallic flakes reflect and "absorb" the surrounding shadows that caused a darker appearance. The bubble had no canopy or enclosure surrounding it so the light reflected very brightly off of it’s surface. That made for a lighter appearance in comparison to the grill.
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: ECS]
#256797
03/19/09 09:57 PM
03/19/09 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
I was under the impression mike ross' 70 car we have been referencing is a hemi car, and thats the one i thought he refernced in the last debate on this, and thats the one i am refering to.
Be it a Hemi, 440 Six Pack or 340 Shaker car, there was no difference with the silver paint whatsoever. Also keep in mind that the reflective properties of this particular paint were very misleading and deceptive. In direct light, the shaker bubble had a totally different look than the grill. The grill is relatively enclosed and the large metallic flakes reflect and "absorb" the surrounding shadows that caused a darker appearance. The bubble had no canopy or enclosure surrounding it so the light reflected very brightly off of it’s surface. That made for a lighter appearance in comparison to the grill.
corect i agree a car model engine or body color are irelleven. i was only refring to it as a hemi car as thats what i thought was.. my bad.
now go look at the old thread, scroll down until you see where someone overlayed pics of the different formulas on Ross's posted pic of his scoop.
even the ones tony posted from what i can see dont show them being "dead on"... sorry thst just how i see the colr as its presented
also, the only pictures presented in this post that look even remotely close to being the same (dead on) are the ones Mike Volz of Rocket Resto posted and they are uncleaned dirty 30 year old parts, if they are the same so be it!
It just adds to the info, frustration, and confsuion, but they sure dont look anything like those posted of ross's bubble..
again this doent have to be, or is about Ross personally, just stick to the paints presented and it wont be.
Last edited by AllTrim Plus; 03/19/09 09:59 PM.
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: AllTrim Plus]
#256798
03/19/09 10:16 PM
03/19/09 10:16 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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David Walden
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David Walden
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Quote:
also, the only pictures presented in this post that look even remotely close to being the same (dead on) are the ones Mike Volz of Rocket Resto posted and they are uncleaned dirty 30 year old parts, if they are the same so be it!
*....but they sure dont look anything like those posted of ross's bubble..
The picture posted by Mike Volz doesn’t even show a comparison between the grill and the shaker bubble paint. Are you now implying that the picture of Mike Ross' Cuda IS NOT an original factory example?* I thought Tony Dagostino posted the picture to simply substantiate that the grill and bubble were painted with the same paint formula! What about the 3 comparison photos posted by Terry McCann? Wasn’t that the original question/point of this entire thread?
Have we suddenly switched topics?
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Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?
[Re: AllTrim Plus]
#256799
03/19/09 10:21 PM
03/19/09 10:21 PM
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Posts: 5,120
Chicago Blackhawks
hemicar1971
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Can any of the posters tell me who painted the Bubbles for Chrysler? Was it Fram doing it in house? Was it Summerville Ind. that I believe made the bubbles? Did either of these two, Fram or Summerville mix the paint or did they have others mix small batches using a Chrysler Formula for their use on the bubbles.
1971 HEMI E BODY REGISTRY
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