Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?

Posted By: 6pkaar

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/18/09 04:41 PM

rattle can textured argent paints aren�t remotely close to factory paint. It works fine for the average guy restoring their car with acceptable results, however, never should it be used for any OE type work.

OK, I'm the "average guy", but strive for OE type work. Nobody out there in the "Mopar family" is wiling to share their argent with "little brother". I've got a good grill and bubble....all I need is the paint, and I'm capable of loading up my gun and giving the pieces a fresh coat of argent....if I could get it! I HATE rattle cans for anything (other than WD40!). I fill up the gun anytime anything needs paint, but when it comes to argent the "average guy" doesn't have a choice. Hey Mike, when's BE&A going to start offering their argent by the quart?

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/18/09 05:26 PM

Quote:

It's just not that important to me to try to convince you of anything when your mind is made up. With absolute facts, you still want to debate and I�m not going there this time.

actually mike its not about convincing me of changing my mind, it is for the side by side comparison to continue to document the differences/similarites and everyones knowledge!

Although, some how, when i left off with this last night i kinda knew how you would respond....

so let me print a quote from an email i rec'd privately regarding your shaker after you posted a sliver of it in the last debate on this:

"You are right about the Mike Ross scoop.... definately light"...

so i am not the only one thinking that...

However, since you think you and your car are above it, I have no problem not discussing it with you, and we'll let it go at that, as like you with me, its just not that important to me that you know all you can know (or think you do), about the formulas and how they were sprayed. (yes that is a dig).

BTW, this is the first time in 20 plus years, that i have ever seen any pictures side by side of original parts from those who have said the scoops were the same color as the grilles.

So until now, yes my mind was made up. although i have yet to see any pieces in person that used the same pigments, or be able to dissect the pigments (something i doubt you have done) to determine the origin of their shade its just another hazy piece of the puzzle to me.

Regards

Mike

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/18/09 05:34 PM

Quote:

rattle can textured argent paints aren�t remotely close to factory paint. It works fine for the average guy restoring their car with acceptable results, however, never should it be used for any OE type work.

OK, I'm the "average guy", but strive for OE type work. Nobody out there in the "Mopar family" is wiling to share their argent with "little brother". I've got a good grill and bubble....all I need is the paint, and I'm capable of loading up my gun and giving the pieces a fresh coat of argent....if I could get it! I HATE rattle cans for anything (other than WD40!). I fill up the gun anytime anything needs paint, but when it comes to argent the "average guy" doesn't have a choice. Hey Mike, when's BE&A going to start offering their argent by the quart?

6pakaar,

you have choices: everyone of us that has correct or what claims to be correct offers a spray service for the product...

you can either use them or not, or go do all the reasearch and expense that we have all gone thru to come up with them and do your own, or not.

its not about holding it hostage, its about availabilty, costs of the product if it were to be sold, and on and on.

Mike

Posted By: 6pkaar

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/18/09 05:42 PM

OK, I think I'll paint my '70 bubble black. That way EVERYBODY knows it's the wrong color! I really didn't mean for this to get into an argument, and apologize for that. I think my next post will be "What is the right wingnut for an A12?". So at this point I'm calling it a tie and saying either would be deemed correct. What do the OE Gold cars have? Any judges want to toss their opinion into the ring?

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/18/09 05:48 PM

Quote:

OK, I think I'll paint my '70 bubble black. That way EVERYBODY knows it's the wrong color! I really didn't mean for this to get into an argument, and apologize for that. I think my next post will be "What is the right wingnut for an A12?". So at this point I'm calling it a tie and saying either would be deemed correct. What do the OE Gold cars have? Any judges want to toss their opinion into the ring?

black would also be correct (my understanding is that after may 1970 they came this way also), but then what black, textured or not, and shade etc...

I dont do the black ones. I dont have enough of what i belive to be the original formula left...

here is a pic of an NOS part

Attached picture 5102269-CBnosshaker16.JPG

Attached picture 5102269-CBnosshaker16.JPG

Posted By: HEMICUDA

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/18/09 06:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It's just not that important to me to try to convince you of anything when your mind is made up. With absolute facts, you still want to debate and I�m not going there this time.

actually mike its not about convincing me of changing my mind, it is for the side by side comparison to continue to document the differences/similarites and everyones knowledge!

Although, some how, when i left off with this last night i kinda knew how you would respond....

so let me print a quote from an email i rec'd privately regarding your shaker after you posted a sliver of it in the last debate on this:

"You are right about the Mike Ross scoop.... definately light"...

so i am not the only one thinking that...

However, since you think you and your car are above it, I have no problem not discussing it with you, and we'll let it go at that, as like you with me, its just not that important to me that you know all you can know (or think you do), about the formulas and how they were sprayed. (yes that is a dig).

BTW, this is the first time in 20 plus years, that i have ever seen any pictures side by side of original parts from those who have said the scoops were the same color as the grilles.

So until now, yes my mind was made up. although i have yet to see any pieces in person that used the same pigments, or be able to dissect the pigments (something i doubt you have done) to determine the origin of their shade its just another hazy piece of the puzzle to me.

Regards

Mike

Posted By: 6pkaar

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/18/09 06:34 PM

Quote:

black would also be correct (my understanding is that after may 1970 they came this way also)

FOR SALE: One shaker set up for '70 'Cuda UNPAINTED......I'm going with a FLAT hood!!! (just kidding)

Posted By: 340SIX

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/18/09 08:56 PM

Quote:

Here's another one. Both were stored above my garage out of direct sunlight all these years

I realy hate to post,but I have a QUESTION
For one the picture Macannix posted looks 99% of what the 71 challenger grille I had till 2004 had on it.
Car was a 318 car with wide hood trim.
Heres the Queston
You said

Quote:

something that may or or may not be known? is this stuff was not a chrysler specifc paint, it was the beginng of the OE paint mfg's custom radiance color line, and there is supposed to be a chip chart of all the different colors that were available, but i have yet to find or see that..

When you said OE paint mfg's custom radiance color line Are you talking about the PPG Radiance Candy paint base paint that went on before the top coat and clear? That was used in the early-middle 80's before the Radiance 2 came out?
A friend of mine is a pack rat but moved 3 months ago and had to toss stuff out. But He may still have that color chip book. If that is what you are saying I will ask him if he still has it

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/18/09 09:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Here's another one. Both were stored above my garage out of direct sunlight all these years

I realy hate to post,but I have a QUESTION
For one the picture Macannix posted looks 99% of what the 71 challenger grille I had till 2004 Car also was a 318 car with wide hood trim.
Heres the Queston
You said
Quote:

something that may or or may not be known? is this stuff was not a chrysler specifc paint, it was the beginng of the OE paint mfg's custom radiance color line, and there is supposed to be a chip chart of all the different colors that were available, but i have yet to find or see that..

When you said OE paint mfg's custom radiance color line Are you talking about the PPG Radiance Candy paint base paint that went on before the top coat and clear? That was used in the early-middle 80's before the Radiance 2 came out?
A friend of mine is a pack rat but moved 3 months ago and had to toss stuff out. But He may still have that color chip book. If that is what you are saying I will ask him if he still has it

i have not follwed the radiance line development, i only know whats written in the literature i have surrounding these colors which are lacquer based. I dont know what the others are or if its the same line or bases.

it cant hurt to get the book and see if its the one that has the numbers that are listed in the reference above.

please post back if you get it.

Mike

Posted By: HEMICUDA

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 05:17 AM

When dealing with procedures of the past, it helps to understand the technology used during a specified era and the changes that result over time. We discuss the condition and appearance of these NOS and original items today but they do not have the same fundamental features that they possessed some 40 years ago. Rather than debate the characteristics of these components, it is important to understand how these parts started out and the changes that may have taken place over time.

The grill and the shaker bubble were painted with the same engineered paint color. The plants would have ordered the paint in bulk but variations would have occurred due to slight changes between the batches. Next you must consider the bonding surfaces and material differences that existed between the two manufactured parts. The grill had the textured paint sprayed directly over the plastic composite, molded surface. The plastic would have exhibited aging color changes, that over time, would have altered the hue of silver paint. The same logic for the shaker scoop. It was a fiberglass composite material BUT used red oxide primer , on most of the bubbles, as a basecoat BEFORE the metallic silver was applied. The darker red base coat could have altered the color cast of the argent silver paint. If some of the shaker bubbles had a greater amount of silver paint material applied, a difference would have resulted in the depth or density of the silver coating. You have two totally different surface materials, aging in a manner that could impact the appearance of the colors as time progressed. Don�t forget that the flake is a true metal material that also oxidized, at rate specific to it�s environmental surroundings. An original grill will be exposed to conditions different than those of the shaker bubble. The engine heat alone will bake and alter the silver paint finish of a bubble.

If you understand the specifics that affect the overall appearance of paint, it is easy to explain how these subtle color changes will occur.

Posted By: mccannix

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 11:06 AM

Mike
See, staying in school and sticking with chemistry and science has paid off for you.
I would agree 100% with the statements above as accounting for color variations.
The different paint mix batches say a lot for the different shades of argent found on NOS 70 Barracuda grills and headlite doors.
I know we're talking assembly line here, but NOS, over the counter items were still painted using the same formula in the same facility.
In the early 80's when Downer had most of the NOS E body parts locked up, I recall buying boxed NOS Barracuda grills and headlite bezels all the time at shows, through dealers, and in Hemmings.
We'd gather at Downers in NJ say for the Englishtown show, and he would pull out no less than 10 NOS boxed grills and h/light bezels. We would compare colors in the light trying to get a matched set so everyone had a close mix for their car they were to be installed in.

Attached picture 5103922-grillboxes.jpg

Posted By: burdar

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 12:40 PM

Quote:

Don�t forget that the flake is a true metal material that also oxidized, at rate specific to it�s environmental surroundings.

That's interesting because I've noticed that origonal argent on the back tail panel of the 72-74 Challengers often rusts in a strange manner. The "high" spots always take on the orange rusty look leaving the low areas silver.

Posted By: mr_belvedere

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 01:12 PM

Everyones bladder empty yet?

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 05:19 PM

Quote:

When dealing with procedures of the past, it helps to understand the technology used during a specified era and the changes that result over time. We discuss the condition and appearance of these NOS and original items today but they do not have the same fundamental features that they possessed some 40 years ago. Rather than debate the characteristics of these components, it is important to understand how these parts started out and the changes that may have taken place over time.

The grill and the shaker bubble were painted with the same engineered paint color. The plants would have ordered the paint in bulk but variations would have occurred due to slight changes between the batches. Next you must consider the bonding surfaces and material differences that existed between the two manufactured parts. The grill had the textured paint sprayed directly over the plastic composite, molded surface. The plastic would have exhibited aging color changes, that over time, would have altered the hue of silver paint. The same logic for the shaker scoop. It was a fiberglass composite material BUT used red oxide primer , on most of the bubbles, as a basecoat BEFORE the metallic silver was applied. The darker red base coat could have altered the color cast of the argent silver paint. If some of the shaker bubbles had a greater amount of silver paint material applied, a difference would have resulted in the depth or density of the silver coating. You have two totally different surface materials, aging in a manner that could impact the appearance of the colors as time progressed. Don�t forget that the flake is a true metal material that also oxidized, at rate specific to it�s environmental surroundings. An original grill will be exposed to conditions different than those of the shaker bubble. The engine heat alone will bake and alter the silver paint finish of a bubble.

If you understand the specifics that affect the overall appearance of paint, it is easy to explain how these subtle color changes will occur.

Mike, cant disagree with you on that and dont.

regardless of all that, YOU need to be able to tell the difference between the two shades and the origin of what was what before it was sprayed, before all the effects you mention have taken place.

and until YOU have held in hand, looked in several different cans of REAL NOS Factory packed original formula unsprayed paint/ toner, etc, or mixed original formula dk/med using all original toners, etc, then spayed many different parts over 20 plus years, using the many different variables (that you mention), of the originals as a guide, YOU dont have all the knowledge YOU think YOU do.

so why not just post pics of your grille and bezels side by side to you shaker for everyone to see, not just me.

insert smiley of your choice here

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 05:58 PM

colors match?

Attached picture 5104622-70shakerltsilverreduced.jpg

Posted By: ECS

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 07:01 PM

Quote:

colors match?

???????????

Why ignore the pristine NOS side by side comparisons and counter with old, dilapidated examples to prove a point? Lets concentrate on the picture you posted and continue with that train of thought. The grill and shaker does not match just like the hood and fender paint does not match. There are areas within the same painted body panels that do not match in and of themselves. The door and fender paint does not match the front bumper paint! Using your posted photo and logic, should we also conclude that the paint applied at the factory did not match between the various body panels? Isn�t the grill opening an area that would have been exposed to 40 years of dirt and soot being pulled in by the radiator fan? Why use a grass stained, filthy dirty, 40 year old grill in an attempt to validate or promote a �new� paint appearance from the factory? I guess if you search long and hard enough, you can find anything to support a hypothesis.

Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 07:32 PM

Quote:

so why not just post pics of your grille and bezels side by side to you shaker for everyone to see, not just me.

hereis a pic of mike ross' survivor 70 cuda, very very original car, that hadnt any paint work (i took these pics while there last year)

whether these pics show it or not (a flash was used)
the DARK argent grille + shaker bubble were a dead on match

mikes car is a great example to use as it was always garage kept + wasnt subject to the elements, so there was any, or much of any, fading or wear

hope mike doesnt mind me posting pics of his car,
which by the way is a great great car + even better for reference and learning from.

its what i refer to as an answer machine!

Attached picture 5104810-GRILL,SHAKERARGENT(Large).JPG

Attached picture 5104810-GRILL,SHAKERARGENT(Large).JPG

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 07:48 PM

dave W. i am only providing the comparison as a possiblity, and as a reference since and above all because Mike Ross wont/cant (CHDKS).

I am not ignoring the NOS parts as an option of possiblities/ facts i have seen many inoperson form 67-74 parts), but need to reiterate, they are different (more so) than production line installed parts.

I have even acknowledged that this is the first time in 20 plus years of doing this, that ANYONE has ever provided the two parts from REAL production line installed parts to compare to.

To further iterate i am not questioning and am not so color blind that i can see they appear to be the same, I just want more for personal curiousity and to delve beneath the 30 year old surface and to the base origins. (does that sound like how you research stuff?)

funny you being one of the people that preach this from your poduim as gospel, yet want to use NOS as example of what a part installed on a car 10 years eralier should look like. (were you fortunate enough to have your valiant NOS grille look exactly like your production line installed car? please post side by side pics).

I am not denying there are differences and variances of the original base shades, based on: time, date, pressure, atmosphere, mix, blah blah blah.

I am NOW AT THIS POINT only questioning the experience of one who will not contribute to this in with phyiscal matter and just provides salesman hype and marketing flair rather than experience of 20 plus years hands on experience dealing with original formulas.

THE ONLY ONE's EVER OFFERED BY THE OE MFG IN LIQUID FORM

everything i am talking about all goes back to that, and after 20 plus years of seeing and hearing this beat to death, with unfounded in correct information, it is to the point where i am not going to care any more so much that why bother try to help provide knowledg to the overall goal of providng history for others to use...

since the way the market (sheople), absorb info like: "it come's from someone who has bought there way into the market... so it must be correct cause i like them, and their dog and pony show more than the other guy"...

any way Dave i like seeing some of your posts even you go overboard with your passion, as you appear to have done the physical hands on reasearch vs some of the others that claim or think they are above it all.

BTW and since you stuck you foot in it, your shaker on the black car appears to be from the pic, Gibson gray is thay correct?)

Mike

edit: PS dave, can you not see that even with regard to age, the pigments/hue/shade of the two parts are night/day, black/ white, silver/gray, DIFFERENT! Sureley with your abilities unlike Mike you are able to see that?

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 07:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

so why not just post pics of your grille and bezels side by side to you shaker for everyone to see, not just me.

hereis a pic of mike ross' survivor 70 cuda, very very original car, that hadnt any paint work (i took these pics while there last year)

whether these pics show it or not (a flash was used)
the DARK argent grille + shaker bubble were a dead on match

mikes car is a great example to use as it was always garage kept + wasnt subject to the elements, so there was any, or much of any, fading or wear

hope mike doesnt mind me posting pics of his car,
which by the way is a great great car + even better for reference and learning from.

its what i refer to as an answer machine!

Tony isnt mikes car a hemi car??

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 08:09 PM

here are two cans of NOS Paint, whats the differences

Attached picture 5104884-tquadargentreduced.jpg

Posted By: HEMICUDA

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 08:11 PM

Quote:

here are two cans of NOS Paint, whats the differences

Even �NOS Paint� will NOT have the same physical or visual properties that it did when it was newly formulated. Unless someone can go back in time to substantiate the absolutes that you request, it is a moot point. The best anyone can do is search for the facts and have the sense to recognize them as they come across them. Instead, we have the reoccurring problem of people who re write history in an attempt to simplify the process or accommodate their pointed agenda.

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 08:12 PM

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 08:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

here are two cans of NOS Paint, whats the differences

Even �NOS Paint� will NOT have the same physical or visual properties that it did when it was newly formulated. Unless someone can go back in time to substantiate the absolutes that you request, it is a moot point. The best anyone can do is search for the facts and have the sense to recognize them as they come across them. Instead, we have the reoccurring problem of people who re write history in an attempt to simplify the process or accommodate their pointed agenda.

Mike the question is for everyone, and is: what the are the differences?

yet you reply with an arguement rather than an answer to a direct question...

so once agin mike you prove that you are not wnating to know all you can (or think you know about this).

so now you are saying, that a can of paint that has never been opened or seen the light of day, and has not been contaminated by atmosphere or humans adding something or not, has changed more or so much that it can no longer be used as documentation, but that a car and paint that has been sprayed and even ever so slightly been exposed to elements that it has not changed but can be used as reference...

you are completly missing the point i am making about the paints and the methods used to verify what shade is what after it is sprayed and aged, but then that seems to be how you in all our discussions. edit: also what is my pointed agenda?

i wish the people had the coconuts to stand up to you in piblic the way they have in emails to me and or private discusions. hint hint!

Posted By: ECS

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 09:48 PM

Quote:

funny you being one of the people that preach this from your poduim as gospel

Hello Mike! You definitely have me confused with another fellow enthusiast by the fact that I have NEVER preached ANY procedure with an absolute certainty. I have stated many times that the only definite procedures in this hobby are riddled with variations and inconsistencies. Take the comment you made about paint never seeing the light of day. A chemical/paint liquid formula begins to "break down" from the day it is manufactured. It does not matter if it is sealed air tight. The chemical composition changes over time regardless! On this thread there have been NOS as well as factory examples posted to convey the "correct" appearances. Why try to change or dismiss the reality of what is obvious? I personally had nothing to do with ANY feature that was used to manufacture a new car in the 1970s. I simply do my best to promote and disclose the facts the way I have documented them. I try very hard to leave any preconceived notions or opinions out of the equation. Nothing additional, nothing less! I think some individuals are more concerned with being "right" or "saving face" when they offer commentary to these discussions. Having a few (or all) of the answers should never be the motivating factor for documenting, translating or sharing the truth.

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 10:15 PM

dave you are good debater, but in the heat of the momemnt it seems you miss things that are being pointed out about how you present things, then want to argue the itnerpetations that were made about your "preachings"...

i am refering to your inference than production lunch pale parts, are better examples than NOS parts (or are you now changing your position for the sake of this discusion?), and that is all i meant by that.

Now relate that trin of thought to this discussoion about paints... would it not also apply in some however small insignificant to you way that: a wet paint in its original form be a better example to compare to a prodction line installed part that has seen minimal age and wear, than a part that was sprayed later?

besdies this is not about me being right or wrong (maybe it is for those who wont show their parts), on the subject of what colors the shakers are got, were, is, VS what color the grilles were, as there are enough facts to justify both arguments, just no one original individual that can say: yes or no, or when and how, one way or another.

so now the debate has turned to the research and mehtods used to determine the underlying origins of the base matersials not who is right or wrong about it..

do you have any direct experience with the products you can contribute to the subject rather than try to argue whether i am wrong or right?

also you did not answer the question is the shaker you have Gibson gray or not? or do you have soemthing to hide?

Posted By: ECS

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 10:58 PM

Hi Mike, sorry if this has seemed personal to you. We are probably saying the same things but viewing from different angles. I doubt that anyone will ever be able to comment with 100% accuracy what the different shades were like back in the day. I don't think that these paint finishes had the absolute consistencies (that we try to prove and pinpoint) even back then! All of these examples are probably "correct" in their own right. For all the great things that Mopar vendors do for this hobby, it is sad that we cannot consolidate our energies and move forward to help the cause. I want to say that I have heard many good things about your company/products and want to sincerely thank you for the contribution you have brought to the hobby. I also consider Mike Ross a good friend and a major contributor to the Chrysler restoration market. I doubt that anyone could argue the positive impact and benefit he has brought to our hobby! "Correct" in the restoration world is certainly not without many variations and interpretations!

**"also you did not answer the question is the shaker you have Gibson gray or not? or do you have soemthing to hide?"**

I didn't understand your comment/question Mike. ALL of the paints used on my vehicles were custom mixed by Steve Been and myself. NONE were purchased or used from a secondary source.

Posted By: 340SIX

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/19/09 11:36 PM

I had 2 NOS parts counter Challeger SE rear trim panels. I got them at seprate times! FYI they were not the same color.
I saved one for my car and sold one to someone that had a real SE car, since it had a light scuff.

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 12:11 AM

Quote:

I didn't understand your comment/question Mike. ALL of the paints used on my vehicles were custom mixed by Steve Been and myself. NONE were purchased or used from a secondary source.

Thanks Dave, Thats what i wanted to know.

since that is the case, (only if you wnat to answer)...

did you have the original untouched scoop to reference?

and do you have pics of the original?

if no to the above, what did you use as a reference?

how did you ascertain the base pigment?

if yes how did you ascertain the base pigmnet?

when it was judged what criteria was it judged by and against?

who was/were the judge(s)? (this question is more for info along the lines of the: "directed/combined energies" comment you made to "overall better the hobby"...

so dont take any of it personally and no need to be defenisve of it, if you would rather not answer that is fine.

M

since those q's seem abrupt/pointed, let say this is not a witch hunt or attack, it is simply for contribution to the subject at hand.

Posted By: ECS

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 12:45 AM

Quote:

did you have the original untouched scoop to reference?

and do you have pics of the original?

if no to the above, what did you use as a reference?

The original shaker to my Cuda was gone before I ever took possession of the car. Steve had four original examples that we referenced and I provided the original paint codes that were used by Chrysler. Using those variables for references, we were able to come up with a formula that was probably representative of the original mix. Keep in mind that even our "patterned" examples had slight variations within their appearance.
One last point....you keep asking for Mike Ross to post his original examples. Didn't you see the pictures posted by Tony D. of Mike's original Six Pack vehicle? Is it really necessary that he be the person posting the photos or can we just accept the fact that the same material/proof was provided by Tony D. instead? I don't think the outcome would be any different if Mike R. were to reiterate the point by simply re-posting those same photos.

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 01:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

did you have the original untouched scoop to reference?

and do you have pics of the original?

if no to the above, what did you use as a reference?

The original shaker to my Cuda was gone before I ever took possession of the car. Steve had four original examples that we referenced and I provided the original paint codes that were used by Chrysler. Using those variables for references, we were able to come up with a formula that was probably representative of the original mix. Keep in mind that even our "patterned" examples had a slight variations within their appearance.
One last point....you keep asking for Mike Ross to post his original examples. Didn't you see the pictures posted by Tony D. of Mike's original Six Pack vehicle? Is it really necessary that he be the person posting the photos or can we just accept the fact that the same material/proof was provided by Tony D. instead? I don't think the outcome would be any different if Mike R. were to reiterate the point by simply re-posting those same photos.

thnak you ont he reference questions.

on the other,

I was under the impression mike ross' 70 car we have been referencing is a hemi car, and thats the one i thought he refernced in the last debate on this, and thats the one i am refering to.

ok so i was wrong we are talking about the same car: its all in this thread, take a look
THREAD

Posted By: ECS

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 01:29 AM

Quote:

I was under the impression mike ross' 70 car we have been referencing is a hemi car, and thats the one i thought he refernced in the last debate on this, and thats the one i am refering to.

Be it a Hemi, 440 Six Pack or 340 Shaker car, there was no difference with the silver paint whatsoever. Also keep in mind that the reflective properties of this particular paint were very misleading and deceptive. In direct light, the shaker bubble had a totally different look than the grill. The grill is relatively enclosed and the large metallic flakes reflect and "absorb" the surrounding shadows that caused a darker appearance. The bubble had no canopy or enclosure surrounding it so the light reflected very brightly off of it�s surface. That made for a lighter appearance in comparison to the grill.

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 01:57 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I was under the impression mike ross' 70 car we have been referencing is a hemi car, and thats the one i thought he refernced in the last debate on this, and thats the one i am refering to.

Be it a Hemi, 440 Six Pack or 340 Shaker car, there was no difference with the silver paint whatsoever. Also keep in mind that the reflective properties of this particular paint were very misleading and deceptive. In direct light, the shaker bubble had a totally different look than the grill. The grill is relatively enclosed and the large metallic flakes reflect and "absorb" the surrounding shadows that caused a darker appearance. The bubble had no canopy or enclosure surrounding it so the light reflected very brightly off of it�s surface. That made for a lighter appearance in comparison to the grill.

corect i agree a car model engine or body color are irelleven. i was only refring to it as a hemi car as thats what i thought was.. my bad.

now go look at the old thread, scroll down until you see where someone overlayed pics of the different formulas on Ross's posted pic of his scoop.

even the ones tony posted from what i can see dont show them being "dead on"... sorry thst just how i see the colr as its presented

also, the only pictures presented in this post that look even remotely close to being the same (dead on) are the ones Mike Volz of Rocket Resto posted and they are uncleaned dirty 30 year old parts, if they are the same so be it!

It just adds to the info, frustration, and confsuion, but they sure dont look anything like those posted of ross's bubble..

again this doent have to be, or is about Ross personally, just stick to the paints presented and it wont be.

Posted By: ECS

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 02:16 AM

Quote:

also, the only pictures presented in this post that look even remotely close to being the same (dead on) are the ones Mike Volz of Rocket Resto posted and they are uncleaned dirty 30 year old parts, if they are the same so be it!

*....but they sure dont look anything like those posted of ross's bubble..

The picture posted by Mike Volz doesn�t even show a comparison between the grill and the shaker bubble paint. Are you now implying that the picture of Mike Ross' Cuda IS NOT an original factory example?* I thought Tony Dagostino posted the picture to simply substantiate that the grill and bubble were painted with the same paint formula! What about the 3 comparison photos posted by Terry McCann? Wasn�t that the original question/point of this entire thread?
Have we suddenly switched topics?

Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 02:21 AM

Can any of the posters tell me who painted the Bubbles for Chrysler? Was it Fram doing it in house? Was it Summerville Ind. that I believe made the bubbles? Did either of these two, Fram or Summerville mix the paint or did they have others mix small batches using a Chrysler Formula for their use on the bubbles.

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 03:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:

also, the only pictures presented in this post that look even remotely close to being the same (dead on) are the ones Mike Volz of Rocket Resto posted and they are uncleaned dirty 30 year old parts, if they are the same so be it!

*....but they sure dont look anything like those posted of ross's bubble..

The picture posted by Mike Volz doesn�t even show a comparison between the grill and the shaker bubble paint. Are you now implying that the picture of Mike Ross' Cuda IS NOT an original factory example?* I thought Tony Dagostino posted the picture to simply substantiate that the grill and bubble were painted with the same paint formula! What about the 3 comparison photos posted by Terry McCann? Wasn�t that the original question/point of this entire thread?
Have we suddenly switched topics?

dave keep up, its confusing enough to try to convey this in written word jumpin back and forth form psot to post...

the original question by me was: can anyone post just one pic of a PRODUCTION LINE Installed shaker and grille that matched...

so one of the pics posted by Mike Volz is of a bezel (so what I can see that it the 'bezel" is the same as grill paint woudl be) and it is the first i ever seen where the two (shaker/grille beze whatever) that matched.

I am NOT implying That mikes car is not origianl (you need to stay with whats being said and quit trying to read between lines, and reread it if it doesnt make sense, I know i have since you started posting)...

only that the picture Ross posted a long time ago does not look like the picture tony posted and the differences in shade are night and day as pointed out by someone else in that other thread, and they appear night and day regardless of reflective quality, how you hold your head in the light to see it etc.

which is what this dead horse beating has become about for me, and people being able to tell the differences between the two colors...

I understand the original poster wanted to know if they were the same or not, it has been answered that yes they were and no they were not)

so regardless of what Mike R says and what Tony says, based on the picture Tony shows comparing the shaker to the grille vs the opriginal picture Mike ross showed in the other post, vs what mike volz has posted i am questioning the two colors on being the same on the blue car and using all my references to show the night and day diff btween the two pigments.

I am not being stubborn because of who it is i am dealing with, or anything else regarding them or you, its how i see the color, i am sorry I cant convey that any more clearly...

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 03:26 AM

Dave W and Mike R, and everone, which color is this based on Mike Ross's shaker?

Attached picture 5105909-1A.jpg

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 03:28 AM

same question

Attached picture 5105912-1B.jpg

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 03:32 AM

Quote:

i am sorry I cant convey that any more clearly...

Us too I think. This thread made my head hurt.

Posted By: mccannix

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 03:33 AM

Quote:

Can any of the posters tell me who painted the Bubbles for Chrysler? Was it Fram doing it in house? Was it Summerville Ind. that I believe made the bubbles? Did either of these two, Fram or Summerville mix the paint or did they have others mix small batches using a Chrysler Formula for their use on the bubbles.

Not Summerville Ind that made the scoops. The facility where they were manufactured in Toronto is long since closed, but scoops were shipped bare to Fram who initially for a short period of time mixed paint themselves as discussed in this and other earlier threads.
Fram called it Astrotone Silver, paint code AF4-DA1

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 03:35 AM

tonys' pic of mikes car again closer to these above to make the reference easier

Attached picture 5105928-tonydposyingofmikescarreduced.jpg

Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 04:34 AM

FWIW As incredible as Mike Ross' Survivior Cuda is it also proves that Argent Tones over time could vary from one piece to the next, as well as the Shaker Bubble & the Grill match the Headlight Bezel doesn't...

Posted By: ECS

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 07:08 AM

Quote:

the only pictures presented in this post that look even remotely close to being the same (dead on) are the ones Mike Volz of Rocket Resto posted ......but they sure dont look anything like those posted of ross's bubble..

Help me understand your point Mike. If you admit that Mike Volz's sample looks original and you state that Mike Ross' sample is original, what is it about MR's bubble that prompted you to post that it "don't look anything like those posted....? Original is Original!!!

Quote:

so regardless of what Mike R says and what Tony says, based on the picture Tony shows comparing the shaker to the grille vs the opriginal picture Mike ross showed in the other post, vs what mike volz has posted i am questioning the two colors on being the same on the blue car and using all my references to show the night and day diff btween the two pigments....the original question by me was: can anyone post just one pic of a PRODUCTION LINE Installed shaker and grille that matched...

Lets not forget the factual documented pictures that Terry McCann posted. That makes THREE different individuals with visual proof showing that the colors were NOT "day and night diff" but were very close to being the same. Why is this concept even being debated at this point? The best thing you could do is follow your own advice and post original "PRODUCTION LINE Installed shaker and grille" photos that support your contrasting views. With your 20 years experience, I would assume that you have at least ONE documented picture! With all due respect Mike, your conclusions have been supported by nothing more than your typed words, while requesting documented proof from everyone else!

Posted By: HEMICUDA

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 09:39 AM

To contribute to this conversation, here is a picture of the bubble and grille (no flash on the camera) on a 3,900 mile survivor that hasn�t seen the light of day until this week when all the cudas were pulled out to clean the shop. It's very obvious, like the pieces Terry has shown, the argent is the same and much easier to see that it is in person.

With all the good information posted here I think we can come to the conclusion that the factory intent was for the bubble and grille to match. Original bubbles will appear to be lighter depending on their exposure to the elements. The metals in the paint will oxidize at a much greater rate on a piece that is exposed like a bubble and make it appear much lighter. That will explain why the photo of the bubble on the black cuda Alltrim posted is much lighter. Based on the condition of the car that's obvious.

Another consideration is the fact that most of the bubbles were painted over a much more contrasting color in the red oxide primer. It takes more coats of argent to cover as apposed to the complementing color of a grey plastic grille. Our findings, painting more than 1,000 buckets and 500 grilles, is that every additional coat of argent lightens the shade of the appearance. Like I wrote earlier, we are very careful not to mix grilles and buckets even when they are sprayed the same day. We paint 10 grilles and buckets at the same time to insure a perfect match.

Whether a production line piece or NOS, the information so graciously supplied by fellow MOPAR people clearly shows that parts painted at different times with the same paint will change in shade. Based on all our experience here at B/E & A using argent paint, shades of the same paint changed considerably because of the inherent factors when spraying that type of material.

In closing, it is my presumption, that there isn�t one definitive shade of textured argent paint that is gospel as being correct, rather a shade anywhere in between.

After this exercise, it's easy to see why some people might preach that a lighter argent is gospel. Where some painted with a lighter argent? I don�t think so, more like the actual application of the paint that changed the shade.

Attached picture 5106131-ARGENT-PAINT.gif

Attached picture 5106131-ARGENT-PAINT.gif

Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 09:57 AM

I agree with your last post HEMICUDA.One Chrysler Formula, but maybe mixed by different sources when applied to the Bubble or Grille,etc. so there would be a possibility of having a shade different on each. If all Mixing was done in one batch and shipped to all persons applying it then there would be little difference if any. If all followed the formula mix to the exact specs.then the color would be an exact match.But to get the formula mixed the same in August of 1969 as to July of 1970 it would have to mixed via the forumla to an exact specs. and be tested in a Lab. and tweaked to match the Chrysler Formula.

Posted By: HEMICUDA

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 10:06 AM

Quote:

I agree with your last post HEMICUDA.One Chrysler Formula, but maybe mixed by different sources when applied to the Bubble or Grille,etc. so there would be a possibility of having a shade different on each. If all Mixing was done in one batch and shipped to all persons applying it then there would be little difference if any. If all followed the formula mix to the exact specs.then the color would be an exact match.But to get the formula mixed the same in August of 1969 as to July of 1970 it would have to mixed via the forumla to an exact specs. and be tested in a Lab. and tweaked to match the Chrysler Formula.

I agree totally

, and to say paint mixed by Mr. Joe counter guy at a paint store in 1989 as being absolute would be a foolish statement.

Don't forget, painting over contrasting colors with the same paint changes the shade also.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 01:02 PM

For those with a driver, on a budget, and need a non-textured argent, Krylon Dull Aluminum rattle can(don't have number w/ me) looks pretty darn close and goes on very smooth if prepped properly....

Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 01:53 PM

Quote:

so regardless of what Mike R says and what Tony says, based on the picture Tony shows comparing the shaker to the grille vs the opriginal picture Mike ross showed in the other post, vs what mike volz has posted i am questioning the two colors on being the same on the blue car and using all my references to show the night and day diff btween the two pigments.

mike
i hate to enter pi**ing matches here, but please be open minded enuff to admit that where the flash hit the shaker in the pic i took changed the appearance of the color. be smart enough to look past the flash + see where the flash doesnt hit the bubble or the grill that the colors are the same

i think we all know here how flash, lighting etc can change the appearance of the color.

also, i was there, + saw with my own eyes , the grill + shaker are the same color

i have no dog in this dispute but im just stating what i saw

i worked in a body shop for a few years when i was a kid, + i know that the same mix of paint sprayed with anyone of the following variances different days, different tempature, different humidity, different air pressure, different person usually will produce some kind of a difference in color

also do you feel that the 1989 batch of paint you have is an exact match to what was used in the 1970 model year????

im not saying it couldnt be, but it was mixed 20 years later than the original stuff

Posted By: jerrya

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 05:02 PM

Global Warming has either affected the pigments in the paint or a couple of poster's minds.... to be continued..... I'm sure

Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 06:05 PM

yah know what after thinking about this O/N and talking to people i respect about it...

everyone is right i have no business or any experience to be talking about this at all, thank you for indulging me while i stirred the pot... its been fun?

thank you to all who presentd pics and hypotheses.

my input on this from here on out, dies here with me now, last time i ever talk about it, offer any thing or any insight... not because i am right or wrong, simply that it is a drain on my energy and focus, and i have spent way to much time on it as pointed out by some who feil i am not spending enough time working on their parts..

any and all info that i have or had, or come across, will now be up to the people who have bought/buy the formulas/formulations etc. from me or done their own research and documentation..

i am just going to sit back and watch from the sidelines and LMAO at misinformation and keep track of the good stuff for my personal use and knowledge to apply to my products.

since there is a consensus that none of this stuff was the same and that none of it was different, it can no longer matter to me what is what.

all the best!

Mike

Posted By: 340SIX

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 06:57 PM

The real question asked by most is where and when can they buy some piant to shoot it them self.
After all the fighting is over and everyone walks away thinking ther are right, Not one vender sells what they think is right!
Point is if they realy think that what they have is right. They should have no problem selling it

not talking about the limited source of OEM stock still left.
If there is a A,B,C option let the public make up their own minds.
For years most of the guys were happy to get the ppg laqure organsol that was not right just to have something to use vs nothing.
So I assume something very close would leave us tickled pink

Posted By: HEMICUDA

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 07:48 PM

Quote:

The real question asked by most is where and when can they buy some piant to shoot it them self.
After all the fighting is over and everyone walks away thinking ther are right, Not one vender sells what they think is right!
Point is if they realy think that what they have is right. They should have no problem selling it not talking about the limited source of OEM stock still left.
If there is a A,B,C option let the public make up their own minds.
For years most of the guys were happy to get the ppg laqure organsol that was not right just to have something to use vs nothing.
So I assume something very close would leave us tickled pink

Kevin, good argent sprayed from a gun has been available through Frank Battleson. Not rehashing right from wrong, his paint is very good.

It's not that our company won't sell the paint, we aren't set up to do so and I really need it for the grilles we did. If you have a grille you would like painted, I would be more than happy to offer that service to you.

Posted By: 6pkaar

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/20/09 09:48 PM

Quote:

The real question asked by most is where and when can they buy some piant to shoot it them self.
After all the fighting is over and everyone walks away thinking ther are right, Not one vender sells what they think is right!
Point is if they realy think that what they have is right. They should have no problem selling it not talking about the limited source of OEM stock still left.
If there is a A,B,C option let the public make up their own minds.
For years most of the guys were happy to get the ppg laqure organsol that was not right just to have something to use vs nothing.
So I assume something very close would leave us tickled pink

Posted By: ECS

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/21/09 05:58 AM

Quote:

i am just going to sit back and watch from the sidelines and LMAO at misinformation...

You are taking this way to personal Mike! It certainly does appear that this is a matter of being �right� and the heck with the truth! Look at your quote above. How is anyone reading this thread suppose to interpret that particular type of sentiment? You are a guy who has helped support this hobby. What �misinformation� are you referring to? The original comparison pictures posted thus far? The testimonials that were presented along with photographic proof? You shouldn�t make comments like that and just leave them hanging! Who are you accusing of promoting and/or offering �misinformation�?
As far as the �good stuff� Mike, ANYONE can mix the paint to match the original formula if they do their homework and take their time with the procedure.

Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 03/21/09 06:33 AM

I have a case of original argent in the cans from Chrysler dated 1971. I haven't tried to use it yet, but it sure will knock your diick in the dirt when you open up a can!

Arguing this for the 10000000000th time sure is funny though!

Posted By: OE Argent

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 01/14/20 06:08 AM

100000000001th?

“Should I? What the heck, lets do it and see how crazy @#it can get!”

Starting with a couple of questions...

1) Who/How many can complete these codes?
(extra credit for refs/sources)

AY1...
AF4...
DAF...

2) Regarding the original post question...
Are there 80-128 people left in the hobby that even care?

3) For fun, Who is the quote above from?

Mike

Posted By: 4406bbl

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 01/17/20 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by OE Argent

Hi Mike, been a while....

AY1 harmon kardon radio group-google
AF4 fram code for astrotone silver, now fram code for an air filter-google and memory
DAF 6 speed asin trans- google

Can't help on the quote, but a LOT more than 100 people care about whats right.

Thanks for the help after meeting at the nats decades ago, you were abrasive on the internet but nothing but helpful after a face to face meeting, and sent me free stuff to help me match the argent on my car, hope all is well with you.

Mike

Posted By: OE Argent

Re: Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent? - 02/10/20 05:31 AM

yah what i should have said, was who's/which grille, who's shaker, which Shaker etc. etc etc. and left it at that. but had to let my "personality disorder" get the best of me.

so 300 plus views since post, and only one part of an answer correct...

1). RED
Medium Textured Argent
Organosol Black

2. Still doubting there are many left in the hobby who care... when rattle cans and 3 part eye matches are now the norm.

3. Jim Jefferies

All the best.

Mike

Grill and Shaker Bubble....Use Same Argent?