Re: Flat cam
[Re: CSK]
#2402164
11/11/17 09:52 PM
11/11/17 09:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,786 Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,786
Portage,michigan
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Love the Lucas hot rod oil. High in Zinc, and designed to cling for cars that dont get driven all the time
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight 418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam, footbrake street/strip car Best so far, 10.32 1/4 1.41 best 60 foot 6.56 at 104.17
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Re: Flat cam
[Re: BradH]
#2402166
11/11/17 09:53 PM
11/11/17 09:53 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,904 Pattison Texas
CSK
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,904
Pattison Texas
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Well I started getting some oil pressure fluctuations & so I dropped the oil pan, looking up I could see my cam was going flat,so much for my EDM tool steel lifters, all 16 lobes are going away, 4300 miles, main bearings dont look to good, REBUILD time, GRRRRRRRRRR never again will I use a FT cam, time for roller. Sorry to see this and why I went roller and never looked back.......the guys that tell ya it's a hassle to keep em lashed or whatever are probably the same ones who say EFI is easier and less work than a carb........DO IT and you will love it but I'd go solid.......... it was a solid, going back solid roller What brand cam? How aggressive are the lobes? Was the cam nitrided, as well as used with tool steel EDM lifters? Howards cam .875 lobe,very mild. no nitride.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Flat cam
[Re: CSK]
#2402176
11/11/17 10:01 PM
11/11/17 10:01 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,904 Pattison Texas
CSK
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OP
master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,904
Pattison Texas
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Thanks Guys for the input, solid roller is next & freshen up the short block, no more flat tappet cams for me ever again. Howards is going to call me ,they want to talk to me about this problem. Thanks again everyone !!
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Flat cam
[Re: CSK]
#2402182
11/11/17 10:05 PM
11/11/17 10:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,531 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I Live Here
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Howards is going to call me ,they want to talk to me about this problem. I'll be interested to hear their take on what's happening there.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Flat cam
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2402186
11/11/17 10:09 PM
11/11/17 10:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,904 Pattison Texas
CSK
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master
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,904
Pattison Texas
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Howards is going to call me ,they want to talk to me about this problem. I'll be interested to hear their take on what's happening there. I will post the info, they contacted me on my Facebook page.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Flat cam
[Re: CSK]
#2402227
11/11/17 10:55 PM
11/11/17 10:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,531 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I Live Here
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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Here's my theory.......
With an iron cam and lifters, at the microscopic level, the cam and lifter material "flow", or "give", with each other during contact. The Schubek/tool steel style lifters are so much harder than the cam core, that only the cam is flowing during contact. "X" amount of material flow is going to happen with a given area of contact and load. If one of the pieces is so hard that it no longer flows, then all of the displacement/flow is taken up by the remaining piece. In this case, the cam. This additional "flexing" of the surface layer of the cam under the high loads at play work harden the cam surface, and as a result it loses it's ability to "flow"....... The surface becomes brittle........ which causes fracturing, and tiny pieces of cam break away. This goes on continually, so it looks like it's "wearing", when in reality it's more like tiny pieces are just flaking off/breaking away.
That's my theory anyway. I may not have it 100% correct, but I'm pretty sure that's the gist of what's going on.
If the OP had used regular edm lifters, I doubt there would have been any issue.......provided he got the cam broken in properly at the start.
I feel this is one of those situations where there was a part developed to eliminate a very specific problem in certain classes of racing engines, and it seemed like a good solution to help with a similar problem with some street applications....... And in reality...... The race car parts proved to not really be suitable for street/long term use.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Flat cam
[Re: CSK]
#2402293
11/12/17 12:52 AM
11/12/17 12:52 AM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318 State of confusion
Thumperdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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State of confusion
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Well I started getting some oil pressure fluctuations & so I dropped the oil pan, looking up I could see my cam was going flat,so much for my EDM tool steel lifters, all 16 lobes are going away, 4300 miles, main bearings dont look to good, REBUILD time, GRRRRRRRRRR never again will I use a FT cam, time for roller. Sorry to see this and why I went roller and never looked back.......the guys that tell ya it's a hassle to keep em lashed or whatever are probably the same ones who say EFI is easier and less work than a carb........DO IT and you will love it but I'd go solid.......... it was a solid, going back solid roller That's what I meant, Solid roller............wasn't clear I guess.......
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: Flat cam
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2402296
11/12/17 12:55 AM
11/12/17 12:55 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 690 New Hampshire, USA
oldiron
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 690
New Hampshire, USA
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Have a cam that looks almost identical.... Schubeck lifters... There was no indication of a problem until disassembly. Had many miles, and many passes
66 Belvedere Vert, 4 Speed/Jerico, slowly, very slowly, getting faster - NA LD Wedge New New Best: 10.56 @129 68 B'cuda 4 gear Jerico - Another New Best of 9.86 & Trying to slow up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4jDLKwd9Gs
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Re: Flat cam
[Re: CSK]
#2402346
11/12/17 02:37 AM
11/12/17 02:37 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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The only lifters I will ever run are those suggested by the cam manufacturer. I am not a metallurgist. I run almost all flat tappet cams ( soild and hyd). I run a quality synthetic oil with zinc. I make sure the lifter bores and lifters are perfectly clean ( lifter bore drop test). I rotate the engine by hand with the intake off to make sure all lifters are rotating. I don't have compatibility problems and I don't have flat tappet cam failures.
Fastest 300
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Re: Flat cam
[Re: CSK]
#2402463
11/12/17 01:30 PM
11/12/17 01:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,801 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Master of nothing...
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Master of nothing...
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,801
Benton, IL.
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Interesting thread. When I built this current engine (540 Hemi), I was conflicted as to whether I should go with a solid flat or roller cam. It is primarily a street combo, so durability was a prime concern. I asked on here and I asked quite a few experienced Mopar engine guys about which to go with. And just like this thread, the experiences were fairly well split between the 2. No clear cut winner. Since I got the reciprocating assembly from Ray Barton and he has a little bit of experience in this area, I went with his recommendation which was his tool steel flat lifters. 2,000 miles with VR-1 oil and no problems.......so far. But I will keep an eye on the lobes and if I see any problems developing, I will let everybody know.
Master, again and still
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Re: Flat cam
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2402473
11/12/17 01:47 PM
11/12/17 01:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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From what I have seen over the years....... The Schubeck/tool steel type lifters are not the hot ticket for "street" cars. I know of numerous people who have been through this.
After you get the cam out, if you can, get some close up pics of the nose of the lobes, so I can see if they look like others I've had in the shop.
When it's a real street car(more driving, less racing), and won't be running a roller cam...... My preference is not to use real aggressive lobes, get the cam nitrided, and use normal edm lifters. And of course high zinc oil....... And I'm not in the "light oil" camp.
I prefer the Driven or Brad Penn myself.
Edit: I didn't see the cam pic in the first post initially. The wear and pitting on the nose like you have is what I usually see when using this style of lifter on iron cam cores when "normal" cam profiles are used. "Cheater", or dwell at full lift type lobes seem to hold up much better when this style of lifter is used, even with much higher spring loads. Nitriding doesn't help at all.
I've never gotten a good answer on what's happening, but I have a theory.
It's not "defective" parts, and I don't think different oil would solve it.
Thats just what was done to mine as Dwayne speced and had my custom grind solid flat tappet cam made and nitrided it. He also sent me the EDM lifters. I use the Valvoline 20W-50 VR1 racing oil and add a small bottle of the zinc additive at each oil change. I fired my eng in June 2011 and drive it on the street all the time and its still going strong. I had the inner springs out also when I broke the cam in. I have been very happy with my solid flat tappet but I hear your pain as I hate to see anyone wipe a cam. I can honestly say I have never run a roller cam and I have never wiped a cam lobe on any of my flat tappet cams. I hope my good luck holds out the rest of my life. Good luck with yours and sorry to see that happen to your eng. Ron
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Re: Flat cam
[Re: Crizila]
#2402584
11/12/17 04:00 PM
11/12/17 04:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,904 Pattison Texas
CSK
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,904
Pattison Texas
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The only lifters I will ever run are those suggested by the cam manufacturer. I am not a metallurgist. I run almost all flat tappet cams ( soild and hyd). I run a quality synthetic oil with zinc. I make sure the lifter bores and lifters are perfectly clean ( lifter bore drop test). I rotate the engine by hand with the intake off to make sure all lifters are rotating. I don't have compatibility problems and I don't have flat tappet cam failures. When I ordered my Howards cam They knew I was going to run tool steel lifters on the street & strip ,they said that was ok.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Flat cam
[Re: CSK]
#2402592
11/12/17 04:24 PM
11/12/17 04:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243 Charlotte, North Carolina
sgcuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243
Charlotte, North Carolina
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Your cam and lifters might not have been the issue, just a result. If you are losing oil pressure, you need to find and correct that problem first.
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Re: Flat cam
[Re: CSK]
#2402603
11/12/17 04:47 PM
11/12/17 04:47 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,904 Pattison Texas
CSK
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,904
Pattison Texas
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You might still have another issue. Worn cam lobes won't cause oil pressure issues. thats why I am going back through it, the oil pump drive bushing was worn real bad also.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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