Flat cam

Well I started getting some oil pressure fluctuations & so I dropped the oil pan, looking up I could see my cam was going flat,so much for my EDM tool steel lifters, all 16 lobes are going away, 4300 miles, main bearings dont look to good, REBUILD time, GRRRRRRRRRR never again will I use a FT cam, time for roller.

What were your spring pressures? If ya go too crazy its best to run a billet core with ft lobes.

What do the lifters look like? Any noticeably flat lobes vs others?

155 seat 380 open , lifters still have convex face.

Have you measured the lobes to see how much was lost?

Im asking because what I can see in the pics shows alot of wear but normally its so gradual the filter catches it, even looking way back to stockers that would eat a lobe round and cave in the lifter still had fai bearings.

Not that it matters now, can you post your bearing pics?

I feel your pain
No easy answers on any flat tappet cam, no matter which brand or heat treating(nitriding) used

Sorry to see this and why I went roller and never looked back.......the guys that tell ya it's a hassle to keep em lashed or whatever are probably the same ones who say EFI is easier and less work than a carb........DO IT and you will love it but I'd go solid..........

What oil were you using. So far so good with my solid lift cam, edm lifters, brad penn, and a zinc additive. Coming apart after 3 years for freshening and possibly a roller cam

I have not measured the lobes, the cam bearings look mushed out, the main bearing is VERY smooth but polished looking.

That rod on the left looks bent or is it just the pic........

its the pic.

10/30 VR1

it was a solid, going back solid roller

You might still have another issue. Worn cam lobes won't cause oil pressure issues.

I blew up your cam pictures and man does that have some funky wear marks on it. Almost like it was thrusting back and forth badly

I don't want to start a slam the oil vendor, but all I can say is I lost 2 flat tappet cams using VR1. I swapped to Driven (Joe Gibbs) oil. So far so good on the street car. Dwayne talked me into a solid roller for the new GTX I am building.

If it was me I would put the cam back in to see were it sits in relation to the lifter bores. And probably go a step
Further and put the chain on and have someone turn the engine over with a ratchet to see what is going on. But that’s me and I like to get to the bottom of things

thats why I am going back through it, the oil pump drive bushing was worn real bad also.

What brand cam? How aggressive are the lobes? Was the cam nitrided, as well as used with tool steel EDM lifters?

Thats why I asked for bearing pics, what brand/type bearings? Al based bearings and alot of street type bearing seem to self polish a bit. Any additive in the oil?

I always look for wear consistency off the nose since the lobes were ground from the same blank and it looks like its got it.

Sorry for all the questions, knock on wood but ive always ran solids because they work for me and it would cost alot to switch several motors over to roller and like others, just trying to learn a bit more.

I too had to blow it up to get a better look.

From what I have seen over the years....... The Schubeck/tool steel type lifters are not the hot ticket for "street" cars.
I know of numerous people who have been through this.

After you get the cam out, if you can, get some close up pics of the nose of the lobes, so I can see if they look like others I've had in the shop.

When it's a real street car(more driving, less racing), and won't be running a roller cam...... My preference is not to use real aggressive lobes, get the cam nitrided, and use normal edm lifters.
And of course high zinc oil....... And I'm not in the "light oil" camp.

I prefer the Driven or Brad Penn myself.

Edit: I didn't see the cam pic in the first post initially.
The wear and pitting on the nose like you have is what I usually see when using this style of lifter on iron cam cores when "normal" cam profiles are used.
"Cheater", or dwell at full lift type lobes seem to hold up much better when this style of lifter is used, even with much higher spring loads.
Nitriding doesn't help at all.

I've never gotten a good answer on what's happening, but I have a theory.

It's not "defective" parts, and I don't think different oil would solve it.

Love the Lucas hot rod oil. High in Zinc, and designed to cling for cars that dont get driven all the time

Mis matched parts?

With the beck lifters I use billet cores as ive been down the cast core "short life" road.

Howards cam .875 lobe,very mild.
no nitride.

Thanks Guys for the input, solid roller is next & freshen up the short block, no more flat tappet cams for me ever again. Howards is going to call me ,they want to talk to me about this problem.
Thanks again everyone !!

I'll be interested to hear their take on what's happening there.

I will post the info, they contacted me on my Facebook page.

Maybe I'm not seeing it, but I don't really see a flat cam. Seeing metal fines anywhere? Bearings and skirts - how do they look. The wear might not be right on the cam, but I would put it back in and measure it to see what you really have and make sure you identified the problem.

more cam pictures

That cam is definitely dead

Lost 1/2 a racing season after wiping out a new MP cam, broke in as usual with Comp additive. Put in an off-the-shelf Comp cam and good to go. Never waste my money again on defective MP cam.

Here's my theory.......

With an iron cam and lifters, at the microscopic level, the cam and lifter material "flow", or "give", with each other during contact.
The Schubek/tool steel style lifters are so much harder than the cam core, that only the cam is flowing during contact.
"X" amount of material flow is going to happen with a given area of contact and load. If one of the pieces is so hard that it no longer flows, then all of the displacement/flow is taken up by the remaining piece. In this case, the cam.
This additional "flexing" of the surface layer of the cam under the high loads at play work harden the cam surface, and as a result it loses it's ability to "flow"....... The surface becomes brittle........ which causes fracturing, and tiny pieces of cam break away.
This goes on continually, so it looks like it's "wearing", when in reality it's more like tiny pieces are just flaking off/breaking away.

That's my theory anyway.

I may not have it 100% correct, but I'm pretty sure that's the gist of what's going on.

If the OP had used regular edm lifters, I doubt there would have been any issue.......provided he got the cam broken in properly at the start.

I feel this is one of those situations where there was a part developed to eliminate a very specific problem in certain classes of racing engines, and it seemed like a good solution to help with a similar problem with some street applications....... And in reality...... The race car parts proved to not really be suitable for street/long term use.

That's what I meant, Solid roller............wasn't clear I guess.......

Have a cam that looks almost identical.... Schubeck lifters... There was no indication of a problem until disassembly. Had many miles, and many passes

The only lifters I will ever run are those suggested by the cam manufacturer. I am not a metallurgist. I run almost all flat tappet cams ( soild and hyd). I run a quality synthetic oil with zinc. I make sure the lifter bores and lifters are perfectly clean ( lifter bore drop test). I rotate the engine by hand with the intake off to make sure all lifters are rotating. I don't have compatibility problems and I don't have flat tappet cam failures.

Interesting thread.

When I built this current engine (540 Hemi), I was conflicted as to whether I should go with a solid flat or roller cam. It is primarily a street combo, so durability was a prime concern. I asked on here and I asked quite a few experienced Mopar engine guys about which to go with.

And just like this thread, the experiences were fairly well split between the 2. No clear cut winner.

Since I got the reciprocating assembly from Ray Barton and he has a little bit of experience in this area, I went with his recommendation which was his tool steel flat lifters.

2,000 miles with VR-1 oil and no problems.......so far. But I will keep an eye on the lobes and if I see any problems developing, I will let everybody know.

Thats just what was done to mine as Dwayne speced and had my custom grind solid flat tappet cam made and nitrided it. He also sent me the EDM lifters. I use the Valvoline 20W-50 VR1 racing oil and add a small bottle of the zinc additive at each oil change. I fired my eng in June 2011 and drive it on the street all the time and its still going strong. I had the inner springs out also when I broke the cam in. I have been very happy with my solid flat tappet but I hear your pain as I hate to see anyone wipe a cam. I can honestly say I have never run a roller cam and I have never wiped a cam lobe on any of my flat tappet cams. I hope my good luck holds out the rest of my life. Good luck with yours and sorry to see that happen to your eng. Ron

When I ordered my Howards cam They knew I was going to run tool steel lifters on the street & strip ,they said that was ok.

Your cam and lifters might not have been the issue, just a result. If you are losing oil pressure, you need to find and correct that problem first.

Yup, further investigation into low oil pressure is needed...cam/lifters may be victims.

The two biggest killers of flat tappet cams, outside of lifters not rotating is slow idle speed and low oil volume at idle. The cam is lubed from oil grown from the rods.

The same thing kills adjusters and galls rocker shafts.

In the OP's case, he's using EDM direct oiling lifters.

Oil pressure had nothing to do with the result here.

I read that. I've never used them. It would seem that if the volume of oil was down, it would also be down with the lifter oiling.

Compared to splash oiling, the edm lifters provide a ton of oil to the cam.

Even at 10psi there would be plenty of oil....... And it's a constant, uninterrupted supply.

it had 20 psi at Idle, 40 @ 3000,before all this it had 55 @ 3000

All the stock Mopar V8 blocks I've built had a ton of lifter to block clearances, no need for EDM lifters in my opinion

I know of enough instances of using the schubek/tool steel type lifters on cast cams where the outcome was the same as yours that I'm comfortable in my assumptions that it had nothing to do with oil pressure.

There was a point in time where I felt this approach to solving the problems with flat tappet cams wearing out in street driven vehicles had some merit, but I've seen enough of them, and know of enough others, where I no longer feel that's the case.

As Oldiron stated, his motor showed no symptoms at all from this happening to his cam.
The motor was getting freshened, and it was discovered during tear down.
Since there is only "wear" at the nose of the lobe, and no wear on the lifters, it doesn't even change the lash.

I checked lash every 1000 miles & there was no change, I have not pulled the engine out yet, I have found some things, the oil pump shaft bushing was very worn & sloppy , also found that the oil pump shaft was to long, it bottomed out in the oil pump keeping the drive gear about .050 from sitting down on the shaft bushing.The oil pump looks very worn & scuffed ,cam bearings look squished out also

As I said above you had some cam thrusting going on for some reason but what do I know. A diagonal line on a cam edge to middle can’t be a good thing. My days of running mushroom tappet cams taught me to really pay attention to that area. I hate looking at posts on my phone except for pictures that I want to examine closely. It really lets me zoom in.

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51360&sid=34a31f137d28236642a26e3b5829901b

Most flat tappet cam failures fall in to four categories. 1. dirt. 2. improper break-in procedure. 3. wrong and/or inadequate lube. 4. parts mismatch. In your case I believe it is #4 and possibly #3. It is not too often a manufacturer problem when you really start to look in to what caused the failure. In the long term, going to a roller won't fix any of those problems. BTW, #1 leads the pack by a 1/4 mile!

To my knowledge, there are no P55 cores available for the BB mopar, and the OP's cam wasn't nitrided.

Which lifter would you use with a solid flat tappet cam made out of 8620 alloy (= roller cam material)? Can a tool steel lifter be used?

Ben from Howards cams asked me to send him my cam & lifters to see if they can come up with an answer, Howards cams makes a Quality product & have always been very helpful to me, I will let Y'all know the outcome.

I'm in Dwaynes camp on this one. I dont think anything Howards provided was at fault here. I think it was an unknowingly ( not criticizing you, just what it is) mismatch of parts and specs.The tool steel wasnt probably a good choice here, even though it " seemed" like better would be, well, better. You had several issues at play here, but I dont believe it was 1) oil, 2) the cams fault. I think the " fracturing" idea is dead nuts on.The wear doesnt look like the normal " wiped out cam" deal, which is usually way sooner as far as mileage goes.Regardless, its all mute now, as your not heading in that direction with the new stuff.best of luck on the new deal..onward and upward.

I agree with you, I REALLY appreciate all the input from everyone, this is a costly mishap [ mistake]
Thank you Dwayne !!!!!

Ok
So im a victim too
Always used brad penn and checked lash
So whats the hot ticket
Hydraulic roller or solid and whose ?

I like using hydraulic rollers for street/strip engines. I’ve never had a problem with the Hughes hyd rollers and the Hughes hyd lifters. It’s around 800 - 1000 bucks more to go roller but much better than pulling your engine apart to fix a flattened lobe on a flat tappet cam.

No 2 ways that a roller will make more power (usually). Unfortunately, flat tappet cams get a bad rap when there is a flat tappet failure when it is often not the cam / lifters fault. If you are in to a mild to moderate street/strip build (OP), flat tappet stuff works great for a lot less $. Built many in the .600+ lift range with no problems. Maybe I'm just lucky.

I feel both flat tappet and roller cams have their pluses and minuses.
You just have to decide which fits your program/budget best.

I still sell plenty of flat tappet cams.

[/quote] No 2 ways that a roller will make more power (usually). Unfortunately, flat tappet cams get a bad rap when there is a flat tappet failure when it is often not the cam / lifters fault. If you are in to a mild to moderate street/strip build (OP), flat tappet stuff works great for a lot less $. Built many in the .600+ lift range with no problems. Maybe I'm just lucky. [/quote]

When a customer hands me a check to build an engine for them it's not worth the risk to hope that a flat tappet cam breaks in properly. If a flat tappet cam goes south it's on me regardless of why, who or what. Install a roller and hope and "should be ok" are eliminated....

This is from the Hydroplane Racing League rule book.

http://hrlhydroplane.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/HRL-Annex-V7.pdf



They run SBC with solid flat tappets for 5 mile at about 7200 RPM when the prop is in the water and flash 10,000 if it comes out of the water.

My machinist builds these and one of his 5 litre engines holds the 5 Mile Closed Course World Record for MPH. He doesn't have camshaft problems and his favorite oil is Valvoline 15/40.

Kevin

How high can a typical BBM HR setup spin before the extra weight of the roller lifters starts to become a limitation? I know some people have used (made?) restricted plunger-travel HRs to squeeze out more RPM. But that's not the "normal" build, is it?

As I've gone faster over the years, my required RPM ceiling has also been raised quite a bit... 5800... 6400... 7000... 7200. How far up my incremental RPM steps could a HR have taken me?

A couple of things I see. Shiny bearings speaks of oil film break down. Cam bearings, oil pump, and drive bushing are all damaged. Looks like there wasn't enough film strength, lack of proper oil flow or inadequate oil for the job.
Doug

I agree....there's too much else going bad here to just be the cam, and if not corrected, it will happen again roller or not.

Weight is not much of a factor on stock builds, but becomes an issue with hi RPM race motors. Everything has to be bigger / stronger ( and heavier ) just to be able to handle the spring loads. And the spring loads aren't variable - same big hit at idle as at ......rpm. And while those spring loads are going up, life expectancy is going down. All things to consider when choosing a cam for a particular application. And IMO, the OP's failure is not in that equation and should not be part of the cam choice decision.

Just to point it out, in case it got lost in the fog......

The OP had no symptoms or indications of any kind of cam problem.
We spoke on the phone and he told me the last time he had the car at the track it made its best runs.

Why the pan was off was to look for the cause of the erratic, and lessening oil pressure(and I believe that problem has been identified).

He noticed the irregularities on the cam lobes when the pan was off.......but it wasn't anything he was looking for.