another big block rear seal question
#2217357
12/20/16 12:01 AM
12/20/16 12:01 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,469 Sydney,Australia
tex013
OP
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OP
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,469
Sydney,Australia
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Just fitted the new motor and run in the cam . noticed some leakage from rear . pulled trans yes rear seal . Now I know RAMM had issues a while back . Ultimately Monte suggested fitting the rear seal join at 90deg to pan rail . RAMM did this and removed the windage tray , leak fixed . Has anyone else tried fitting the rear seal like this ? I am running the Milodon road race pan with a windage tray . The motor is out already . I am thinking of going the same as RAMM , especially with removing the windage tray as memory serves me it is wider than the pan rail at the rear . Could as RAMM suggested this be holding oil up at the seal area under rpm ? Motor has factory aluminum seal holder and bolts . Oh 440 source 4.25" kit. thanks
Tex
New best ET 10.259@129.65 . New best MPH 130.32 Finally fitted a solid cam, stepped it up a bit more 3690lbs through the mufflers New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm Power by Tex's Automotive
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Re: another big block rear seal question
[Re: tex013]
#2217561
12/20/16 04:54 AM
12/20/16 04:54 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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I always clock the seals at 90* in any motor I do. A seal is self centering and aligning. You care if the SEAL is straight, not the retainer. I also NEVER glue a seal in the block, cap or retainer.
Covered it before, but this is how I install a seal. I put lower half in block, then I lay the crank in the bearings. Put other half of seal on and rotate 90*. You can easily see if ends are aligned and you know it's aligned on bottom, because where else can it be? Now just sit retainer on seal and make sure it's bottomed. You can "feel" and see it when everything is aligned right. Now take a light and look in the bolt holes of retainer. If the holes are not PERFECTLY aligned with block, when you put bolts in and tighten retainer, you can bet it WILL leak because the bolts pull the retainer and the seal leaks. So what do you do if holes are NOT lined up perfect? Simple, you drill them out until the bolts go in and tighten without influencing retainer in any direction other than down. Obviously this is only a problem on motors with a seperate retainer, as others are in the cap. Everyone worries about the retainer. It doesn't matter, the SEAL is what matters. If you make the retainer tighten down and not "pull" the seal out of alignment, your rear seal leaks will be a thing of the past.
Fancy billet retainers are not needed, plus there is no guarantee their holes will be aligned perfectly on YOUR block either.
Last edited by Monte_Smith; 12/20/16 04:58 AM.
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Re: another big block rear seal question
[Re: tex013]
#2217571
12/20/16 06:00 AM
12/20/16 06:00 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,469 Sydney,Australia
tex013
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OP
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Thanks Dave and Dave . Monte thanks for the full guide . Motor is together so careful pushing while turning crank is in my future - thursday . Cab , definitely rear seal . Running down and dripping off crank flange . I do know the rear sump bolts didnt line up as good as possible with the retainer so Monte your thoughts strike me clearly
Tex
New best ET 10.259@129.65 . New best MPH 130.32 Finally fitted a solid cam, stepped it up a bit more 3690lbs through the mufflers New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm Power by Tex's Automotive
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Re: another big block rear seal question
[Re: tex013]
#2217618
12/20/16 11:12 AM
12/20/16 11:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
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Milwaukee WI
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I never see this addressed in any of these threads... The most common source of leakage at the rear main is the contact area between the retainer and the block. Turn the seals like Monte said, put a dab of your favorite sealer on the mating surface of the retainer, and pay close attention to the side seals. Seems to me the mating surface is never mentioned.
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: another big block rear seal question
[Re: TRENDZ]
#2217875
12/20/16 05:15 PM
12/20/16 05:15 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
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North Alabama
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I never see this addressed in any of these threads... The most common source of leakage at the rear main is the contact area between the retainer and the block. Turn the seals like Monte said, put a dab of your favorite sealer on the mating surface of the retainer, and pay close attention to the side seals. Seems to me the mating surface is never mentioned. I would assume everyone knows the retainer has to be glued on final install. My point was that too many pay too little attention to retainer and just bolt it down. The retainer, how and where it fits is really of little consequence as long as the seal is straight and fits right, but people don't check it. They always think the seal is the problem. A lip seal is very simple and nearly always works IF you get it straight. Not saying my way is perfect or the only way.........just that I have always done it this way and my rear seals don't leak. Can't recall ever having a problem with a chronic leaking rear seal. The next one I do may leak like a sieve, but I doubt it
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Re: another big block rear seal question
[Re: tex013]
#2218482
12/21/16 05:54 PM
12/21/16 05:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
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North Alabama
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After I get the retainer fitting correctly and I KNOW that seal is straight, THEN I will mark retainer relative to block. I put a dab of RTV on sealing surface and fills side grooves with RTV and install retainer. I don't use the side seals, because retainer needs to be loose to get those in and then you tighten retainer. To me, that ruins all your fitting to assure everything is straight, so I don't use them. Again, this is just what works for ME........your mileage may vary........LOL!!!!
Dave, while the billet retainer is a nice piece, just it being nice does NOT mean when it is bolted down that the seal is straight. It still needs to be fit like a stock one. The groove and the bolt holes can vary from block to block. These items are machined into the cast block. So dull tooling, improper setup, whatever, these tolerances can vary, yet all billet retainers are all CNC machined and SHOULD be exactly alike. NOT the case with every block
I have seen blocks that the groove is crooked, the bolt holes were crooked or even blocks that the rear opening was not the same side to side.
Last edited by Monte_Smith; 12/21/16 06:01 PM.
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Re: another big block rear seal question
[Re: tex013]
#2218654
12/21/16 11:20 PM
12/21/16 11:20 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,469 Sydney,Australia
tex013
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OP
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well back in the shop . we think we found the issue . I had this motor studded but also using billet main caps . upon disassembly and cleaning there was a real small mark on the seal holder , touching the very top of both arp stud nuts . looked to cause the holder to lean out just slightly from the block and not hold seal square . just was not picked up . [censored] . Clearanced it and it was for sure mounted square . Monte , we did set the seal at 90deg . certainly was easier to confirm alignment . now just got to refit motor and trans.
thanks for all the input
And merry Christmas
Tex
New best ET 10.259@129.65 . New best MPH 130.32 Finally fitted a solid cam, stepped it up a bit more 3690lbs through the mufflers New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm Power by Tex's Automotive
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Re: another big block rear seal question
[Re: tex013]
#2225759
01/02/17 06:30 PM
01/02/17 06:30 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,469 Sydney,Australia
tex013
OP
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OP
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Joined: Mar 2009
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well Dave , looks good . ran mine again plus 30 odd miles . looks like I may be plain unlucky . still some oil though not as much as before . will just have to put up with it for the short term . I think I will order some Superperformance rear seals , plus a few other gaskets . Then pop trans to double check it is not the oil pan now that I am no longer running the windage tray . argh crapola
Tex
New best ET 10.259@129.65 . New best MPH 130.32 Finally fitted a solid cam, stepped it up a bit more 3690lbs through the mufflers New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm Power by Tex's Automotive
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Re: another big block rear seal question
[Re: tex013]
#2225795
01/02/17 07:18 PM
01/02/17 07:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,513 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 14,513
So. Burlington, Vt.
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Tex, on a different subject(sorry to hear about the seal woes), what are your initial thoughts about the new combo?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: another big block rear seal question
[Re: tex013]
#2225799
01/02/17 07:27 PM
01/02/17 07:27 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 712 California
BigDaddy440
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 712
California
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I built my share of 383s and 440s, I've always had the rear main leak a bit, which drives me crazy. On my current 440 in my roadrunner, I used a billet aluminum retainer, and after several start ups, and some run time, it's as dry as a bone, no leaks, no drips...nothing. I'll never use a OEM retainer again...just my experience.
1969 A12 Roadrunner 1970 Plymouth Cuda 1968 Dodge Dart
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