another big block rear seal question

Just fitted the new motor and run in the cam . noticed some leakage from rear . pulled trans yes rear seal .
Now I know RAMM had issues a while back . Ultimately Monte suggested fitting the rear seal join at 90deg to pan rail . RAMM did this and removed the windage tray , leak fixed .
Has anyone else tried fitting the rear seal like this ?
I am running the Milodon road race pan with a windage tray .
The motor is out already .
I am thinking of going the same as RAMM , especially with removing the windage tray as memory serves me it is wider than the pan rail at the rear . Could as RAMM suggested this be holding oil up at the seal area under rpm ?
Motor has factory aluminum seal holder and bolts .
Oh 440 source 4.25" kit.
thanks

Tex

I like to install the seal flush to the pan rail. The mistake that is made most often is no reference line is scribed into the seal holder to the pan rail when the bottom seal is aligned to the top seal with the crankshaft out. Why would one do that? Because there is front to back play in the seal holder🤓🤓. If you install the top of the seal then install the crank, you have no way of knowing if the seal lips are aligned😎

Why is there play in the stock seal holder? Because it was designed for a rope seal so it really does not matter if its bolted down .030 cocked. If the lips on the rubber seals are not in alignment you will have a leak.....

1 install top seal

2 install bottom seal in seal holder

3 install seal holder into block with out crankshaft installed

4 tighten seal holder bolts 5 ft pounds

5 tap seal forward and back till seal is allighned

6 scribe line with straightedge across seal holder and pan rail

7 remove seal holder

8 install crankshaft

9 install seal holder with rtv on sides

10 align seal holder to reference line scribed into pan rail

11 torque seal holder bolts to spec

12 no leakey

I just installed mine to hughes engine suggestions or directions. clock seal 1/16" and no more. I used the mancini billet retainer and just set it flush with the rear and bottom of block. Hope the retainer was designed to line up seals correctly the way I installed it.

I always clock the seals at 90* in any motor I do. A seal is self centering and aligning. You care if the SEAL is straight, not the retainer. I also NEVER glue a seal in the block, cap or retainer.

Covered it before, but this is how I install a seal. I put lower half in block, then I lay the crank in the bearings. Put other half of seal on and rotate 90*. You can easily see if ends are aligned and you know it's aligned on bottom, because where else can it be? Now just sit retainer on seal and make sure it's bottomed. You can "feel" and see it when everything is aligned right. Now take a light and look in the bolt holes of retainer. If the holes are not PERFECTLY aligned with block, when you put bolts in and tighten retainer, you can bet it WILL leak because the bolts pull the retainer and the seal leaks. So what do you do if holes are NOT lined up perfect? Simple, you drill them out until the bolts go in and tighten without influencing retainer in any direction other than down. Obviously this is only a problem on motors with a seperate retainer, as others are in the cap. Everyone worries about the retainer. It doesn't matter, the SEAL is what matters. If you make the retainer tighten down and not "pull" the seal out of alignment, your rear seal leaks will be a thing of the past.

Fancy billet retainers are not needed, plus there is no guarantee their holes will be aligned perfectly on YOUR block either.

Is it leaking from the main seal or the side seals? How about leaking from the rear edge of oil pan gasket directly above the seal holder dripping down onto the rotating crank while running
Murphy lurks, just waiting to mess with us How about the cam plug or the two rear galley plugs for the lifter valley oil passages I've seen all of them leak making the owners think it was the rear main seal when it wasn't

Thanks Dave and Dave .
Monte thanks for the full guide . Motor is together so careful pushing while turning crank is in my future - thursday .
Cab , definitely rear seal . Running down and dripping off crank flange .
I do know the rear sump bolts didnt line up as good as possible with the retainer so Monte your thoughts strike me clearly

Tex

I never see this addressed in any of these threads... The most common source of leakage at the rear main is the contact area between the retainer and the block. Turn the seals like Monte said, put a dab of your favorite sealer on the mating surface of the retainer, and pay close attention to the side seals. Seems to me the mating surface is never mentioned.

I like that idea Monte. clock the seal at 90* and slide retainer on. retainer will follow seal and go where it needs to be. I'll pull mine out and redo. Thanks

We should have a rear main seal shootout😎😎

I just love Moparts during the winter☃️☃️☃️☃️☃️

Moparts is like another tool in the tool box. I'v learned a lot on this site.

I would assume everyone knows the retainer has to be glued on final install. My point was that too many pay too little attention to retainer and just bolt it down. The retainer, how and where it fits is really of little consequence as long as the seal is straight and fits right, but people don't check it. They always think the seal is the problem. A lip seal is very simple and nearly always works IF you get it straight.

Not saying my way is perfect or the only way.........just that I have always done it this way and my rear seals don't leak. Can't recall ever having a problem with a chronic leaking rear seal. The next one I do may leak like a sieve, but I doubt it

With the billet retainer, my thought was if its flush with bottom of block and rear of block seal would be lined up properly. One other thing about the billet seal. There is some clearancing involved if your using studs or aluminum caps.

Great tutorial Monte. It should probably go in the archives as a tech tip. Just one other thing, what do you do about sealing between the sides of the retainer and the block? Glue inserts in or just fill with RTV and let cure?

After I get the retainer fitting correctly and I KNOW that seal is straight, THEN I will mark retainer relative to block. I put a dab of RTV on sealing surface and fills side grooves with RTV and install retainer. I don't use the side seals, because retainer needs to be loose to get those in and then you tighten retainer. To me, that ruins all your fitting to assure everything is straight, so I don't use them. Again, this is just what works for ME........your mileage may vary........LOL!!!!

Dave, while the billet retainer is a nice piece, just it being nice does NOT mean when it is bolted down that the seal is straight. It still needs to be fit like a stock one. The groove and the bolt holes can vary from block to block. These items are machined into the cast block. So dull tooling, improper setup, whatever, these tolerances can vary, yet all billet retainers are all CNC machined and SHOULD be exactly alike. NOT the case with every block

I have seen blocks that the groove is crooked, the bolt holes were crooked or even blocks that the rear opening was not the same side to side.

I've never had a stock seal retainer be the cause of a leak as long as it's properly installed. Those billet ones sure are pretty however👍

well back in the shop .
we think we found the issue . I had this motor studded but also using billet main caps . upon disassembly and cleaning there was a real small mark on the seal holder , touching the very top of both arp stud nuts . looked to cause the holder to lean out just slightly from the block and not hold seal square . just was not picked up . [censored] .
Clearanced it and it was for sure mounted square .
Monte , we did set the seal at 90deg . certainly was easier to confirm alignment .
now just got to refit motor and trans.

thanks for all the input

And merry Christmas

Tex

I pulled my billet retainer out and reinstalled per Monte's direction. Clocked the seal 90* as well. The retainer ended up in the same position as it was before I pulled it. Flush with rear and bottom of block. I did trim seals before installing pan as well. I now have piece of mind its correct.

well Dave ,
looks good . ran mine again plus 30 odd miles . looks like I may be plain unlucky . still some oil though not as much as before . will just have to put up with it for the short term . I think I will order some Superperformance rear seals , plus a few other gaskets . Then pop trans to double check it is not the oil pan now that I am no longer running the windage tray .
argh crapola

Tex

Tex, on a different subject(sorry to hear about the seal woes), what are your initial thoughts about the new combo?

I built my share of 383s and 440s, I've always had the rear main leak a bit, which drives me crazy. On my current 440 in my roadrunner, I used a billet aluminum retainer, and after several start ups, and some run time, it's as dry as a bone, no leaks, no drips...nothing. I'll never use a OEM retainer again...just my experience.

Sorry to hear about your leak Tex. Those rear main seals can be a real pain.... I have had NO LEAKS in at least the past 6 or 7 builds by scribing a line across the bottom of the retainer to the pan rails with the crank out making sure the seal ends are dead nuts on as stated earlier in this thread.

Dwayne ,
i have a couple of minor issues as you may have noticed - rear seal and intake oil leaks .
I ground a 4mm aluminium plate up and that has solved the intake leak also ground off the nubs on the intake lower edge .
Initial thoughts on my motor is good . BUT with the 5000 stall it is a little hard to feel how good at lower , less than 3000 , rpm . Only pulled it a couple of times past 3000 . In this way it is like the old motor real easy until just over 3000 then all hell breaks loose .
Idle is good , around 1050 in neutral 850 in gear . Starts good . Does sound a little different , i used Dougs D452 headers this time into the old 3"exhaust with aerochambers .
I was having a few issues with carb settings , same ProSystems carb . Though going a lot smaller on idle air bleeds is helping plus simply running it . Patrick said to go down to 063 plus up jets 2 sizes
Still have to play with timing , 20deg initial plus 14 in by 2300 at the moment
I hope to run on a chassis dyno this or more likely next week .
If you have any thoughts re tune guidance dont be a stranger LOL

Tex

You must have more restrain than I do......if I had driven it 30 miles..... My foot would have found the floor at least once

hahaha , its too expensive down here building mopars to take any chances .
And Mr Plod is always on your case .
Race day in 6 weeks

Tex

I did have to clearance the retainer to the rear cap and studs a bit. I just hope it doesnt leak.