Dave, you'll probably never "see" that, the guy that ultimately makes that decision to rebody because he finally realized that the project car he bought is either a total basket case, or is beyond his financial means and/or skill sets to restore, and realizes the only way to "save" it is a rebody, he won't boast because of the taboo surrounding the action/backlash of reboding from his brethren, if he releases the VIN publicly, those self anointed saviors of originality will black list the car without knowing the extent of the rebody...

I myself have no issues with reboding a vehicle in the past, present or future, I worked back in the day in a bodyshop where we did insurance rebuilds that involved "back-halfing" a vehicle, and in some cases involved the partial or full use of a donor, meaning VINs were swapped with the blessing of Insurance companies and local DMV/LEO in full knowledge of what took place, the customer usually had no clue, their only concern was to be made whole again by having their vehicle appear "new" again, as a sideline we also restored Vettes and Mustangs, Mopar restos came along in the early 80's for the shop, again customers sometimes supplied the donor's for partial or full use in order to restore their ride back to it's former glory, most didn't care how it was achieved, funny thing is the majority of Vette guys back in the day were very adamant about not using non OEM parts, or reboding/frameing/tag swapping...but as the years passed, it has long become a common and accepted practice to rebody/frame/re-tag a Vette, along with restamping driveline components, the Vette guys have been in the hobby a lot longer than the Mopar crowd, eventually reboding, retagging, reVINing, restamping, etc, etc will be par for the course in restoring a Mopar with total acceptance, until then, it'll always be a point of contention...

Mike

Surely you have a few pics to share? Don't be shy.

Dave

I can pick out a clown in a crowd... GEEZ! Just an opinion, that's all.

i'll say this about the 'vette guys. i always thought they were the most picky guys on the planet until the mopar resto reality came around. we make those guys look like pikers ! and you are spot on about the re-stamping ok those guys give to drivetrains, even on super high dollar cars it is acceptable. has been for years and years. a good friend of mine had a 66 or 67 427 [?] car featured in hemmings magazine several years ago. it was described as a "matching numbers" car, then, the story stated the re-build of the engine started with a core block from a ???. i personally know that was a re-stamp because he asked me if my shop had any numbers stamps that were whatever size and font was used. we didn't, but he eventually found what was required. when the car was sold to the buyer [who was a reasonably sized collector of those year cars, and not stupid about what is, or is not acceptable for them], he disclosed the restamp of not only the engine, but the transmission as well. large dollars were exchanged, everyone was very happy, and he gets complements even today about how well he restored that particular car. just crazy. we, on the other hand, take that doing with great affront, and we are also way above the vette guys in other areas of factory parts such as the absolute fit and finish of parts that will never be seen after installation. as an example, the inner door window mechanisms. another area is the external paint finish [orange peel, overspray, etc.]. we are quite above those guys in so many ways on every single component and the exactness of factory components and assembly techniques.

I have had everything for both of these cars for almost 30 yrs,titles in my name,vin tags,fender tags,one build sheet and all body numbers,both crushed a long time ago.You can even have the full vin but don't ever expect to see either one on wheels ! H mm,what to do ?

So I read the whole thread and I am surprised at some peoples stance on rebodying a car. For the rebody crowd I have a question, do you feel a rebodied car should carry the same value as the real deal? Should a numbers matching car carry no more value than a car with a replacement engine or trans and does the year of the engine matter? Consider your answer for not only when you are selling one of the recreations but if you were buying it. I think one already stated that they didn't give a hoot about numbers and it was more what the car was today that mattered. Would you pay more for a real 70 Hemi RR or is a 70 Satellite with a Hemi in it just as good, how about a super stock Dart/Barracuda?

As for the original car in question, am with many about there just being too many problems with this car for it to be worth the effort unless this is a special car to you (drove it to your prom or something). Without a fender tag you cant even verify it's color and trans after restoration. And unless I misunderstand the available option list John is correct it could be a 3 speed car, not that that changes anything but it could be.

There are a lot of "ifs" that need to be answered. For example: if I had the money... As well the answers will vary with each and every individual. Personally, I'm not into restorations so really couldn't give a hoot about a numbers matching car as long as it appeals to me and the price was right. I don't look at them as investments.

I believe that when a Mopar is restored using reproduction and or pieces of original metal harvested from other cars and going as far as replacing more than half of the original unibody and having to move and reweld in the hidden vin's, the car has been rebodied. Period. In order to save some of the worlds coolest automobiles, I understand that after all these years, sometimes this kind of work is absolutely necessary. I personally am not a huge fan of cars that have had nearly every single panel (including structural) replaced. If given the choice, I would spend my money on a car that was restored using one super clean unibody structure with all the factory welds still present. Seeing that the original hidden numbers were moved to that unibody would not bother me nearly as much as if they were moved to reproduction metal. If a car was reborn using only this strick type of restoration method, it would likely still get my hard earned money. I do not promote doing this type of work for huge profits and making up codes along the way to boost the value. I would like to see photos of the original car that was wrecked, burned, whatever and photos of its numbers in place and it's fender and dash tags and any other documents supporting the original vehicle. I guess what I'm trying to say is there are thousands of people into muscle cars in general and if I was standing in front of a great one for sale but the seller was telling me it had been restored using another unibody structure, I would want a clean title, all the original documentation from the original car and I would want that unibody to be super nice without questionable and likely incorrect welds. Honesty on the sellers part would also play a major role in getting my money. Sorry guys, just read all this last night and decided to type this morning. Lol

I like the 3rd option better, running away quickly from both cars because I wouldn't want either one of those.

Dave

Then why would you want to take the numbers off one car and put them on another?

Dave

Like it or not, these type cars are out there and they may not be that easy to run away from. I along with many others have seen work done that is truly incredible. I've owned over 45 cool Mopars since I was 15 and today I now have my reserves about driving something like an original or restored numbers matching hemicuda or the like. If I found one that hit a bridge abutment back in the 80's and needed a replacement unibody structure in order for it to be enjoyed again, honestly, a car like that would peak my interest at this point in my life. Fun to enjoy and represents what it originally was very well. Fun car to race too. Again, honesty is a huge concern here though. The honesty would likely end if I sold it to purchase something else. Being able to enjoy a hemicuda that seriously looks the part but let's me sleep at night is a big thing with me and many others. Trust me. I'm a straight up,honest guy and would never consider building a machine like that to turn a profit. My granddaughter and I would look alot cooler pulling in to get an ice cream in a car like that rather than pointing to a shadow box on my garage wall with the tags, buildsheet and title to a hemicuda inside it like a shrine for dead Mopars. Lol maybe I'm just getting old .

I miss the 80s,none of this mattered.

I guess I just don't understand why you need numbers to enjoy a car.
This car looks enjoyable to me and I would enjoy going out for ice cream in it.

You have to watch this short video too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EGMEX0XIbg

Dave

Wizard, I'm very knowledgeable on 71 B Bodies buddy, trust me, there are some really good, solid ones out there that can be had at very reasonable prices. Take anything that looks good off that one and keep the parts. I hate to say goodbye to these cars to but sometimes you really have to. It will wear you down and cost a ton more than its worth to bring that one back. They are not an easy car to restore. If it had all its proper vin numbers and it was a multi-carb, 3 pedal car with its drivetrain, that might be worth your efforts. A friend of mine just purchased a 71 GTX 440-6 4 spd all orig paint and numbers matching. Its rusty but worth the effort. Purchase price was under 10 grand. They are out there. Keep looking.

I've seen that machine many times....and i love it!! Im not overly concerned about having a car with all the correct numbers to find enjoyment. I'm talking like if you have all the numbers, clear title in your name and even the numbers correct original drivetrain. Why not use it? It would make a fun driver and look very correct. Maybe like a step above the average cloned car. My issue is that i'm honest about the things i do and i wouldnt want someone to try and pass it off as a restored original.

That is what you call an oxymoron.

Dave

Correct Dave...but what I meant is that im honest in the sense that I would tell everyone that I created a car using another as its donor. I like things done meticulously and I fear that if I built it looking too right, it might get passed off as a restored original to sombody if I decided to sell. Then again I guess all I'd have to do is post a vin number and let people know on forums. That would certainly eliminate any doubts.

Also, I do not posess any of these items for a hemicuda. Just using this as an example of a rare Mopar and some of my feelings on repairing and rebodying.

OMG - the mythical LA built HEMI car

Myself, the only "numbers" that I'm interested in are the ones that pass muster with the DMV/RMV, other than that I don't care what they are or where they came from, as long as they are clean...

If I own the "numbers/title" and/or the vehicle they belong to, I see no reason why they shouldn't/cannot be used on a "donor" vehicle if need be...

I know some will say "it's all about the money", perhaps it is for some?


I'll tell you about my first Mopar rebody, it was 1980/81, I had already worked a few years in a bodyshop where we did collision work as bread and butter, Vette/Mustang restos on the side, back-halfing/reboding was common legal Insurance and resto work...

We had a neighbor across the street from the shop, who owned a cherry 69 A12 RR, one day the car caught fire (electrical trunk fire) while parked in his yard, 1/2 the car was basically gone, the (ORIGINAL) owner was devastated,naturally he turned to us to "save" his car, he didn't want just another A12, he wanted his car, as so many owners in this type of situation did, he knew a rebody was the only way, he found the donor (base RR) and demanded everything that could be salvaged from his car be transferred, including all "numbers", his car was restored to his wishes, basically reborn from it's ashes if you will, he had no intention to defraud anyone, nor did we, that how things were done, to some, that's saving a car, to others today, it's fraud, back in the day it was no harm, no foul, and today I still see it as no harm

and now, there are complete 57 chevys, camaros, and mustang bodies [challenger maybe too ?] that just "require you to "supply" a "proper set" of numbers to then register as an original vehicle. all claim to be so authentic in construction you couldn't tell from original. spotweld types and locations, panel fitment, basic chassis welds and their nuances, etc. i'm curious how many of these have been sold, and if any hassles were encountered when it came time to go to the state dmv ?