Anyway to get a VIN tag on dash for car you want to restore?

Is there any way to get a new vin tag made if a car you want to buy does not have a title nor the dash (someone took the dash) but if the original vin is on the door (71 Road Runner) can you legally put the car back on the road? I looked around in the interior of the hodge podge of parts and rust stacked inside the interior or whats left of it but did not see the dash nor vin plate. Whole dash boar (metal is gone) Worth buying something like this to piece it back together. Most of other parts are there but very rough. Galen doesn't do any of this resto or reproduction of the vin on dash pad I take it as a car could be stolen or rebodied?

Wizard

You need to call the DMV for your state to see what they say is legal.

Appreciate it. State would be PA if anyone has been there done this already. We have one of the toughest DOT programs here.

PA does have a system in place for state issued VINs, but with no title it may be a waste of time.

What's the chance dash and vin are in another body ? Just thinking.... I'd run #'s first thing to make sure there's not a car already licensed using that vin.

I'd buy another dash with VIN and ownership.

Sounds like a parts car

About the best advice to avoid hassles with the DMV/RMV, better off they don't know

Fraud twice.

DMV & insurance fraud if insured under the cars new 'ASSumed' name.

I still wish that Moparts members that encourage fraud could be voted out, permanently.

Let's face the facts that most States make it very difficult to obtain titles, VINs in any shape or form, registrations, etc when dealing with an old long forgotten vehicle(s) missing paperwork or tags, compounded by the morons working at these RMV/DMV's that change the rules and or requirements based on who's tending the service desk/counter that day, and that's if they even have a clue to start with, IMHO if you can circumvent the DMV/RMV that's generally the best plan...so if the OP attaches a long discarded CLEAN/TITLED VIN to an old discarded project car, who really cares, the State makes their money on a new title and registration, a State assigned VIN, or re-VINing along with DMV/RMV/LEO just brings in a bunch of dumbasses who usually have no clue how to proceed DAMHIK

Run from a car that has no title. This one is in bad shape to boot. Finding another dash to swap is even worse. Plenty of cars out there to buy besides this problem.

Yeah, whatever. Let me guess, you were the kid in school that was always squealing on everyone else, right !!!

then, the question comes up what to do with states that are non-title states with vehicles that are of xxx years or older ? when you buy one of these, all you get is a bill of sale, notarized or not, depending on the year and state. what do you do then ? what about states that "lose" all information on vehicles previous to xxx year due to things such as a fire or flood at said state's central storage location ? and lastly, just for fun, a straight across swap of vehicles between legitimate owners with no money changing hands. this scenario can become sticky as well, because the state is money hungry, never mind getting the required fees for transfer of ownership or tags. i have been involved in all three situations, and as dayclona stated, it all depends on the "moron of the day" at the desk or the other end of the phone how these situations get, or can be resolved. in all three situations above, it took lies told by all the owners on both sides to resolve the issues, because the dmv does not know their own rules of the game, or the desk jockey's don't have a clue as to what is legally required despite "extensive training" in their jobs to prevent frauds being perpetrated. it all boils down to people being forced to be criminals despite the fact both parties and vehicles involved are on the up and up, with no intention of fraud or criminality intended. these rules are put into place to prevent phoniness, but in reality for some circumstances, it makes it almost impossible to play by the rules because you are forced to deal with the people involved that are responsible to insure above board ownership is maintained, but in fact, are clueless as to how to do this legitimately.

Does the vin on the door match the stampings on the body? If so, then at least you know that that number is legit, except for engine size and body line. Then go from there. Is there a fender tag? Does the door sticker look original, or new? If everything seem like it is really a RR and the state says it's not stolen, then go from there. Down here I can get a title for an old car without any kind of paper work.

Unless this is a V or R code , I would not even think about buying this car , and even then, you would have to proceed with extreme caution.
The rule of thumb is to never buy a car without a dash VIN . Rule # 2 Is if the car is coming from a state that had titles in that year, and their is no title , you don't buy the car . So right out of the gate we have two huge strikes against this car . Then , if it has a lot of rust or lots of missing parts , assuming this is an N or H code , this is a lose , lose, lose situation , with no chance of a good outcome.
Now if this were something good like an N code curious yellow sunroof 4-speed car with fender tag and buildsheet you "might" go for it , but if we are talking a run of the mill , mundane color , auto, 383 Road Runner with no fendertag , and typical or above typical rust , it just doesn't make sense to drag yourself through the mud and bend over backwards like a
Chinese contortionist to make this happen .

Greg

Another thing to consider , someone may have that dash frame , Vin and all ,
and stuck it in a Satellite Sebring and went down and got a fresh new title . You might find out after spending a couple grand on buying this car, once you start the process of getting a title etc, that the car is already on file , and so now you just have a parts car , which is exactly what it is now .

Greg

Exactly what are you wanting to do with the car?

Here she is fellows. What do I want to do with the car? I want to save her. Its a 4 speed car. Butterscotch looks like. Why not save it. Looks are deceiving. Not in bad shape to the untrained eye, plus I looked it very well and I already restored my 71 automatic 383 Road runner. Yeah, you can get a title for $1100.00 or more thru those 2 companies out there. That's if everything is in order with car and just missing title. Been there done that 1 time 15 yrs ago when you could get them for $350.00 or so. Here of another company here that will do it for $250.00 if everything is in order. Don't know haven't talked to em yet. Just heard this from guy who did it with them. That's all I know for now.

I like everyone's reply's to this thread. Hopefully I can get one by using some of your reply's here of how to do it. Why not try to do the impossible if it can be done and save her to put out to fly again on the road..

Wizard

Here are two scenarios:

a) You have a rotten car but a good dash with VIN and all appropriate paperwork. Restoration requires swapping virtually every piece of metal costing a small fortune in time and material.

b) You have a good car but no dash, VIN, etc. You find a rotten car with dash, VIN, etc and you slap that dash into your car.

What's the difference ?!?!? End result is exactly the same but scenario b) costs less and doesn't take as long. AND ... this happens all the time. Anyone who doesn't think so is just kidding themselves.

I say go ahead and save it. The question now is, what is the cheapest/ easiest way to get a title. Come down here, and get a post office box and apply for a title here if it is not stolen. Is the door tag original?

Kind of funny all this back and forth about this car. Have you (OP) even checked to see if the VIN on the door frame is currently registered to someone............if it is then it's a moot point and it's just a parts car that you or anyone else can find another VIN and re-body this one too like wherever this car's VIN has gone

No, I haven't looked to see if the vin on door is currently registered to someone. How do you do this? Does my state DOT have a way to run the vin for all 50 states or is there some other way to find out?

Are you saying if the vin is registered there is no way to rebody this car with another vin and nothing can be done?

Wizard

I was working off of your first question and how some were going off on how or why you should or shouldn't do this. What would have happened if you could have gotten the door VIN decal made into a VIN tag and went to register it and by some chance you did and then the OTHER original VIN just happens to appear. That is not likely (or is it???)) to happen because I would hope two VIN's couldn't be register.....a little help here AK in PA

Right now it's a parts car in a salvage yard with probably the best bet is a salvage title or a State issued VIN and drive the crap out of it..............kind of like you stole it.

If the VIN tag is in use on another car & you apply for a state issued VIN, then they go after the loser that used another car's VIN on their car.

If that is the case, then 'his' car will be confiscated until it is all sorted out.

If you re-VIN the car, then the same thing could happen to you.

A good read on what can (and did) happen when a loser bought a VIN & title from Ebay & used them on his car at https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...tml#Post1244228

Something to think about when the usual resident fakers & frauds here encourage others to join them on the dark side.

Come to your senses man! That shell is a mess!....Core support is bent up. Looks like it's sitting on top of a heap. Probably fork lifted up there and the unibody is twisted. Even with a vin tag and clear title that car is questionable. Trust me I've let my Mopar emotions get ahold of me many times but all I can say is STOP and let this pass. 71 RR's are far from rare, keep looking.

let's see. my house burned down, and there is one wall standing and the basement, plus part of the deck became detached and fell away from the structure. do i rebuild "restoring" what's left, or do i just start over with something else, like a new house ? just because that car is a four speed and possibly butterscotch, how could it possibly make any economic sense to restore that thing, never mind the paperwork fiasco ? there are other butterscotch four speed cars out there done you can buy for pennies on the dollar. let's face a couple of facts. #1 : it doesn't appear to be anything especially super rare or a one of one car. and most importantly, #2 : you can't save everything. that is just a fact of life. if this was somehow in your family since new, then sentimental reasons may be worth it restoration wise, but until you get it home and really get a thorough picture of what parts it lacks, plus how bad the shell really is, i can only see a situation where a guys mind is bigger than his stomach. [or however that saying goes] you may have a noble intention, but maybe it's time to just let this one go. or, buy it for parts, sell off what is good and make a few bucks.

Okay, so we don't know what it is if its a 340 or 383 car but no one asked me if I have parts for these cars?? I did not look at the fender tag or find one laying around but going to look some more for it. No one asked me if I know how to do 90% of the work or how to restore a car. The more cars that are saved in our hobby, the better I see it. Once they are gone. They are gone. I never researched how many butterscotch 4 speeds were produced and I will try. Pennies on the dollar I will have to try to find one of those and investigate where these things are also.. It's a matter of opinion of how much you love the hobby and cars. I have been in it for over 30 years. Where people see a major problem and walk away or say its a parts car, I see another opportunity to bring back life to a car that is not in that bad shape and can be saved. How many 4 speed Road Runners were produced? How many Butterscotch? Not looking for super rare car, nor do I care if it is not. Would be nice though.. who knows.. maybe it is?? Problems with a shell don't bother me nor finding the parts for it that I don't have.

Wizard

man,i got crucified,lynched,pitchforked and torched on here for parting a much worse 70 runner and a gtx in the past
the 70 runner was missing the vin and was cut into 2 pieces
when i got it just for some parts.
but that didn't stop the
they just happened to help out 3 of my other cars come back
that were toast and many others that have bought parts off me.
but people just like to complain about
what you want to do with your own property.
i probably have most of the missing dash parts frame and all in my stash
the moral in all of this is
you can't win no matter what you do so,
just do what makes YOU happy and
ignore the background noise..

Don't get bummed out, some of us were just say forget about trying to do anything with this '71 with the original VIN. Buy it, get a salvage title for it and then get a PA State issued VIN plate for it. I still have an old motorcycle with a PA State issued VIN plate and no one ever looks at it as anything less than it is, (one of the best bikes I've ever owned and ridden BTW). And BTW the bike was (salvage titled) purchased and the VIN retag was done in Hersey, PA by a friend's father's m/c dealership, that's right near you right? No brainer if you can get the shell and salvage title GO FOR IT!

Here's what I would do with it but for street (legal use) and cruise nights and then over to Chrysler's at Carlisle in the summers.

MikeR

There is no way to combine paint color & transmission type to come up with a 'how many made' number. Color percentages were tracked for 1971, but it includes all Charger & Coronet based models. Percentages at;

http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/imag...ni_Book0003.jpg

Here's one all ready to go.....

https://classics.autotrader.com/classic-cars/1971/plymouth/roadrunner/100787274

Yes, $28,000. Not pennies on the dollar. But looks worth it must say.

The question was never "should I or shouldn't I ... ?", it was always "how would I ... ?" - all about the VIN !! It sounds to me like the OP is up to the task both mentally and probably physically so opinions on that point should be kept to yourselves. Address the issue at hand - how to legally get that car back on the road. And while there are some who think re-tagging it is a crime, keep in mind that it wasn't anything in particular until the dash was installed at the plant. It still isn't anything in particular until a dash is installed !

Personally I can't imagine why anyone would care how this thing gets re-tagged as long as nothing used in the process is stolen. If the original VIN is available on the door, check that it was legally scrapped. And when another dash and VIN is obtained, check that it can legally be put back on the road. Done deal !! A body is just a body - until the hemi is dropped in and the dash is installed. Then and only then is it a "hemi car".

10-4 on that.

How about the next owner, would he care? Until you buy a [censored] car and it gets exposed while you own it with no prior knowledge. Then what, does your insurance cover the loss on a rebody? Oh yeah, they will put a state issued VIN on it for you, that will help the resale value.

"Legally scrapped". What the heck does that mean? Is there some agency gonna associate that term to a VIN?

Are we citizens to go tell Motor vehicle dept when a car gets parted out?

Do you want to buy an unknown to you rebody next week?

Go look at the roadrunner nest form, it's all about 71 -71 Plymouth B bodies. As I said before, if it's not stolen and can be made legal, go for it.

To track it down and do it legally without "obtaining another dash and VIN" is an admirable goal. I am all for it, and I wish you luck.

What Stanton is spelling out is not legal or admirable, it is fraud.

Well yes, as a matter of fact there is. They're called insurance companies and they report to the DMV. Case in point ... any vehicle that was claimed as lost in any of the recent hurricane floods cannot be legally put back on the road. The cars are sold as "salvage", noted as flood damage, and the VINs are flagged.

Likewise, many salvage yards also submit the VINs of vehicles they're dismantling.

But you seem to be missing the whole point. The point is it can be done. Whether its illegal or not is questionable ... SHOW ME where it says you can't put a dash and VIN from one body into another and then I'll be convinced.

In the mean time, there's absolutely no way you'll convince me that changing 90% of the metal on a rotten car is any different that putting a dash in a decent shell. Take the rad support, trunk gutter section, torque boxes and dash out of a rotten Hemi Road Runner and swap them into a good '68 Belvedere shell and you have a '68 Hemi Road Runner PERIOD.

It is called VIN tampering. Moving a VIN from one car to another is VIN tampering.

Did you read the thread at the link I posted above?

if i wanted one of these, i would go this route instead of the shell first posted without a vin tag. only MY opinion, and as i have zero knowledge on what one of these are worth, this may be a real bargain, or not. and as one who has to pinch pennies, i realize the importance of doing most, if not all the work yourself. also, i have got over 50 years of playing with these four tire creatures, and in that time, i have seen and observed many things. if you have all the parts, have the time necessary, and the shell isn't twisted up more than what is visible, go for it. it's your parts, time and money. but ultimately, it comes back to the vin tag. from 1968-1972 i worked for a body shop [in pa.] that specialized in rebuilding totals. there was a constant presence of DMV cops to oversee the halves of different vehicles joined together to make one, and also to insure this was done legally. at that time, these were just "cars", but above all, EVERY ONE of those vehicles had titles and matching vin tags. [this was before it was mandatory to start with a salvage title] we didn't have to resort to trying to source probably the most important piece of the car. whatever you decide to do, enjoy your endeavor.

I don't know what the big issue is going the DMV route. If your only concern is to take a non legal parts car and turn it into a legal restored car, then just go to the DMV and follow the proper process of getting a legal state issued VIN. For some reason we in the Mopar community look down on that and we shouldn't. I would rather know up front it has a state issued vin then buy a car and later find out it was vin swapped ect and a host of other legal questions could follow the car. There is a fine line when bringing a car back. However this one already looks like it has been salvaged. So the actual vin to that car could have already been noted as Salvaged in the system, vin and dash sold off to someone else who could have incorrectly used and titled it on their fake ect ect. So even if you had the correct dash and vin you still might have problems following you. Just buy the junk yard car and get a proper stated issued vin and no worries. As a community we need to stop looking down on people doing it the right way until it becomes commonly accepted practice.

Surprising that the door is even still with the car, having been removed for whatever reason. I see seats that appear that they could be original. I would look for remnants of a build sheet. I notice that the frame is cut away where the torque tube frame bracket was. It doesn't appear evident of what caused this car's demise. It's not wadded up anywhere. It looks to have been just slowly picked apart of its valuable pieces. Was the dash removed for it's rallye cluster…… it's reverse light and proper hole…… or it's VIN? It would be interesting to know! I'm guessing if someone had parted the car for it's VIN. It would have had the radiator support and the cowl top piece removed as well as the door taken or it's VIN sticker destroyed.
Just my

As many folks know, lots of cars got parted in the 80's for not to drastic problems.

Yes! They were green or the had AC. Either of those were the kiss of death

I agree, But If that were true why are there so many green A/C cars still around? LOL

The door has the correct VIN for a roadrunner as I have confirmed it is legit road runner 383 4bbl built in Windsor Canada plant. Its a medium build also. I looked around again for the build sheet and vin but did not find dash nor vin. Looked under bottom seat for build sheet but not back seat. will have to do that.

Wizard

Chances are the dash was removed for it's pad, or instrument cluster, or both, or someone needed a VIN for their "project", personally I wouldn't even pursue the "missing" VIN, as it may open up a can of worms for you, or someone else, as mentioned previously, just locate a "clean" VIN/title attach and be done with it, it's just a machine that needs a new identity...

I had a 71 Windsor RR a while back that I parted out. As crazy as it may sound, I found a pristine BS in an unusual location by accident. It was a front bench seat car and I was removing the headrests as they were mint. The bench was beyond rotted. Anyway, I had to dismantle the rear flip down part of the bench seat to remove the headrests. Well, sandwiched in between the foam in the inner guts of the seat back, there lay the BS like the day it was left there.

The bigger can of worms is if / when he gets busted for VIN swapping.

Thousands spent on getting it back on the road & then it could be confiscated at any moment?

That would be idiotic.

Stay legal by applying for a state assigned VIN.

If the dash VIN was used on then I hope that guy loses HIS car instead. If the tag was stolen, it could possibly be returned to this car if found on another car.

That would come out as part of the state issued VIN process.

[/quote]Chances are the dash was removed for it's pad, or instrument cluster, or both, or someone needed a VIN for their "project", personally I wouldn't even pursue the "missing" VIN, as it may open up a can of worms for you, or someone else, as mentioned previously, just locate a "clean" VIN/title attach and be done with it, it's just a machine that needs a new identity... [/quote]

Only one problem: LEGAL

When this car is sold and the prospective buyer looks at the body stampings and they do not match it the new vin you installed.

Then what?

I don't know how some of you guys sleep at night worrying about this stuff. I suppose if you guys had your way we'd never be allowed to change the color of a car because it wouldn't match the fender tag !!

Like Dayclona says ... "it's just a machine that needs a new identity".

My friend has an original '68 hemi RR that sat outdoors since it was 2 years old. The thing is ROTTEN and needs virtually every piece of metal changed. The body stampings are going to vanish. So tell me, then what?

This is the way this type of threads usually go.

The 'do it legal types' offer advice that will keep the person out of legal trouble.

vs.

The 'just commit a felony or two types' who feel it is OK because they do it, & the more people that follow their lead then the more 'acceptable' it will become.

I still wish there was a clause in the Moparts Rule Book saying that those encouraging breaking the law could be expelled for once & for all.

your friend does NOT have a '68 HEMI Road Runner - the car he claims to own is DEAD & GONE - simple, end of story

if all is A-OK, care to share the VIN?

Stanton, I thought about what you type on moparts and where you live, and it's all coming clear.

The opportunity to paint the dash frames out of the car is always there when the dash swap happens during the re-numbering process on the rust buckets up In the great white rust belt.

Chances are the dash was removed for it's pad, or instrument cluster, or both, or someone needed a VIN for their "project", personally I wouldn't even pursue the "missing" VIN, as it may open up a can of worms for you, or someone else, as mentioned previously, just locate a "clean" VIN/title attach and be done with it, it's just a machine that needs a new identity... [/quote]

Only one problem: LEGAL

When this car is sold and the prospective buyer looks at the body stampings and they do not match it the new vin you installed.

Then what? [/quote]



Be the same case if you used "donor" parts from several parts cars like the cowl, radiator support, trunk rails/gutters that might have partial VIN numbers on them from other vehicles, or what if repro, or NOS components were used that had no numbers? either case most would either remove or add the "appropriate" numbers needed to match the VIN used, whether the VIN was original or added to the chassis

Only one problem: LEGAL

When this car is sold and the prospective buyer looks at the body stampings and they do not match it the new vin you installed.

Then what? [/quote]



Be the same case if you used "donor" parts from several parts cars like the cowl, radiator support, trunk rails/gutters that might have partial VIN numbers on them from other vehicles, or what if repro, or NOS components were used that had no numbers? either case most would either remove or add the "appropriate" numbers needed to match the VIN used, whether the VIN was original or added to the chassis [/quote]


Do not use 'If you' for people who choose to not follow the illegal path that you constantly try to lead others down.

They know better that to get trapped on that path.

The law does not deal with 'ifs', only facts. The fact is that VIN swaps & VIN tampering is a felony.

Choose that path for yourself as you have evidently chosen to, but do not encourage others to do so.

Yes agreed the Road Runner is DEAD. When the stampings disappear the car is GONE. They weren't all meant to survive. You said the magic word "original". After you commit a felony and re body it its not the "original Hemi car anymore.

Yes What Is the VIN?? Post It.

"Rolling back" an Odometer is a felony also, how many restorers, or instrument re-builders do this?...plenty, accepted practice, just like reboding, reVINing, restamping, etc, etc

When I tell the judge "Well everyone else was speeding" it never works

Barry,
I would be curious to know actual numbers of those that were busted,supposedly busted or someone you actually know for vin swap on a vehicle such as this,not those that make a living vin tampering on late model cars, I would guess the numbers aren't very high.

I think he's only been able to muster perhaps 3 cases over the decades, no one went to jail, no cars completely confiscated, etc, etc, etc, ...LEO's are only interested in "real" cases of mass fraud, large chop shops turning out high end cars for profit, not some enthusiast in his garage rebuilding/reboding some rusty old relic

The questions above are baloney. If it happens one time it is too many.
It all comes down to this 2 part question.

1) Would you like to unknowingly buy a car that was rebodied?
2) When you found out about it what would you do?


How about all you folks who believe in this, why don't you rebody using numbers from avacado green or brown 318 cars?

Hey cretin, who yo all callin a liberal, my vote went in the win column, and I am extatic about the winner!!!! think of this on your next sleepless night, I eat and sleep so darn good you wouldn't believe it. Your ways do not make me feel bad about who I am.

I find humor in how your side turns to insulting others when your illegal actions cannot be justified any other way.

PS, look up cretin on urban dictionary.com, I saw your photo there.

1: I'd have ZERO issues with buying a "clean/rust free" rebodied vehicle, much better than buying a vehicle that was cobbled together with an assortment of donor vehicles, "Frankenstiened" welds/patches/repairs, etc, etc trying to maintain it's "originality" or "numbers" worthiness...
2: After finding said vehicle was "rebodied", I'd still sleep the same at night without any worries, as long as the vehicled looked and performed as I desired, a "rebodied" vehicle goes down the road like another vehicle...
3: Any VIN that is "clean" and title-able is fair game for use, 318, /6, etc, etc

Presentation, Presentation,Presentation, I once used that line in court where I freely admitted to "speeding", only I cited the State's Driving Handbook where "One must maintain vehicle speed in traffic, matching that of other vehicles, regardless of the posted speed limit, so as not to impede traffic flow" followed with the Officer singled me out because I was driving a "high profile" vintage musclecar...charges and case were dismissed, with only a $20 "court fee" charged

Well done! I've had more than my fair share of court victories, but I have never tried that approach. Maybe next time.

Hey Wizard doesn't look like anyone answered your question. There is someone who remakes VIN tags but they require body numbers & title as well as owner verification. The number was posted here in a thread a good while back. I have not been able to find it yet, but I'll keep looking. GTS

If you are talking about the faker I think you are, he is the same guy that made the counterfeit Hemi VIN tag for a 383 car according to the court case record & he admitted to it.

Great guy to avoid!

Until he verifies that the original missing VIN tag is not on another car currently what the heck is the difference if he can get one made or not? He still hasn't done the research. So forget the ORIGINAL VIN and or documentation, man up and go get a State issued salvage VIN, repair or restore it and drive it. Seems to me if the OP doesn't want to do the research on the possible current registration of the original VIN then maybe he doesn't want the car for what it is; a salvage vehicle without an original VIN, title or documentation?

If you want a missing VIN tag made, you'll need a title/registration, fender tag, buildsheet, and any other paperwork that www.datatags.com may require to "consider" the feasibility of making a VIN tag

let's face it the car's a plain jane RR, either affix a "clean" RR/SAT/GTX VIN tag to a dash and be done with it, remove/restamp the cowl/rad support #'s and get on with the rebuild, no trauma, no drama dealing with RMV/DMV/LEO, all the DMV/RMV/ sees is the paperwork, as long as all your t's are crossed and your i's dotted, and they can rubber stamp you out the door after deleting some coin from your wallet, everyone's happy

I saw something like this who makes them.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone in this thread, just trying to answer the original question.

You probably won't get the answer you are looking for here !!

I answered that 2 posts up from yours, the original question was where to have a VIN tag made?... here at www.datatags.com

Although it's not "advertised", repro VIN tags are made there, you just need to have the required documentation to possibly acquire one thru this channel, it's much easier to just find a "clean" titled VIN from a Sat/RR/GTX and attach it to a dash, and give this project a new identity rather than hunt down the "missing" VIN thru the RMV/DMV/LEO, or applying for a State VIN and the hassles that will surely ensue


The remainder of the question involved no title, the OP could register the car in Vermont, you can do it on line, residency is not required, you need proof of Insurance, Grundy is good for this, buy a cheap policy, pay the registration on line, you'll be sent a registration, and a set of plates,....a short grace period of several months, then apply for a title in your State using the Vermont Registration...again it's much easier to just procure a "clean" VIN from a "donor" and title/reg that instead, unless one enjoys the DMV/RMV "Shell game"?

I know. Thanks!

Having just registration will not help you in CA

There's still a handful of States that are not title States, plus some States started applying title requirements just a few years ago, I know that if I bring in a non titled State vehicle into Massachusetts, I just need the last registration and a bill of sale to title/reg. it in Mass

I know California is a "Nation" all it's own in regards to red tape bureaucracy, what's the current stats for registering vintage iron from in State, and out of State, along with the emission BS?

Mike

Maybe this car was a Satellite with a Road Runner driver side door replaced...

Odds are, the dash is on a liscenced car. And they used the title, driveline, and hood from it.

I bought some parts off a guy about five years ago, and noticed a 71 Runner under a cover. Nice car, a plum crazy car that had nice options that matched fender tag, along with color and interior, and a RM23 VIN on the tag, but didn't match the RM23 VIN on the dash. He bought the car at Carlisle ten years prior.

The Ford guys have been getting legit 1965/66 titles for new kit Cobras for years... they thought it adds value to have an early title. Well, cheaper to insure and/or get an antique or classic tag for it to avoid annual inspections and emission tests. Here in PA at least. I know a guy who did, using the VIN on his ERA chassis, and ended with a legit titled1965 car!

Generally when you build a "kit car" or "replica", a donor vehicle is used and rebodied, so you use the donor's "identity" to title, register, insure the vehicle...

However in cases where the vehicle is a custom built tubular chassis/uni-body, or no donor vehicle is used, most States allow the vehicle to be titled as the year of production it represents, a State issued VIN is often applied, unless the vehicle is supplied with an MSO#/mfg.VIN which is usually the case with "turnkey" replicas

Mike,

I know this all too well. As I have a car from one of these States. I've tried my DMV three times and every time it's a new excuse. The car is from a State that does not Title cars older than 1975. I have an email from their DMV stating this and the CA DMV should know this ..... yet I now need produce a letter from them on State Letterhead that says this!

The sad thing is that I could cheat. I could go into DMV and say "I lost the title to my car and I never non-op'd it and I'm a car collector so I don't owe back fees and here is my CHP VIN verification, so can I have a title please. " ... and they will issue me a title for $10. That's not the right thing to do, but it will worked. I'd rather do the right thing. I've tried to point out the hypocrisy to DMV but it falls on deaf ears.

Chris

No, the car is definitely a road runner as confirmed by the matching paint on both doors are same as on the body of the car laying near it and confirmed the VIN on the door is a road runner.

Wizard

Thanks for the input Chris, agreed often times the DMV/RMV is fraught with so much confusion on THEIR END, that circumventing their policies/paperwork in any way shape or form is often the only choice left for an individual that has little to no paperwork/documentation/tags/etc for a vehicle

Mike

It's the remains of a Road Runner, but I believe the Title and VIN are being used on another body already. Probably along with the drivetrain... unfortunately, we can't have two of the same VIN out there running around. Need to find out if that VIN is registered and out there somewhere.

I wouldn't even consider registering with the original VIN. What if the guy who has it has both the VIN and the paperwork but hasn't registered it yet, then some time down the road he does. Now you're in deep do-do. Just find another dash/VIN/paperwork. As for the door #s, doors got damaged, rotted, etc and swapped all the time !!

Agreed, I stated this earlier, it's just a "plain jane" RR, stick a "clean" titled VIN on her and start the resto, just be sure to remove/restamp the previous numbers


now all that's needed...

That horse is not drinking the water supplied here.

Evidently it is the other end of the horse giving very bad legal advice.

Here is one that belonged to a friend of mine 25+ yrs ago, BS27R0B.He sold it to another of my friends who also sold it about 5 yrs later,it started as BH27G0B,all three owners knew the history,paid decent money when bought and all made money when sold,nothing hidden from any one and current owner is quite happy with the car. ( and nobody went to court !! )

If I was to post a picture of a car could you tell me the history on it ?

You mean that door that is LAYING IN THAT PILE of parts ?

Does the number on that STICKER that can be reproduced match the partial numbers on the body ??

also how do you know it was a 4 speed car without the original fender tag or broadcast sheet ? the same hole in the floor was used with a 3 speed ???

Oh so you know this because it has matching paint ??? You said paint right ???

Maybe he has a crystal ball ?

My thought John.

You thinking what I'm thinking?, the entire car, the surroundings, the door with a "possible" repro sticker, matching faux paint, carefully and strategically laid to rest as it someone carelessly had parted it out? is it just a ruse? staged? to fool/convince others into thinking he has whole heartily located the long lost mythical holy grail of medium build 383 4 bbl/4spd Road Runners long lost to car enthusiast and the collector car market for decades has finally been found? and in Ebay saleable condition? just say it isn't so, surely you jest?...Some of you guys just crack me up...lol!

Nice ride!, a better more desirable vehicle was saved with this rebody, chances/hopefully it was a "clean-rust free" donor? which actually makes for the ultimate restoration, you get "factory original sheetmetal", "factory welds", "assembly line correctness", "assembly line nuisances unique to the actual production year", all those things restorers strive to reproduce when cobbling a busted/rust bucket back together with used/NOS/repro sheetmetal/parts and improper assembly/welds trying to "restore" a vehicle back to "original", not to mention the labor savings usually associated with using a donor vehicle and the fact the vehicle hasn't been splayed open down to the bare bones to "reconstruct" it,...the "Mopar collective" has been, and always will be, the last to accept the changes in the hobby regarding re-bodies/VIN swaps, etc

Does this the one have the original body numbers & counterfeit VIN tag?

Well I just took about an hour to read all these post, thanks for killing time on a cold dreary day. I guess I'll go back to work now. Worse then women at the bingo hall.

People win at Bingo fairly often.

With VIN & insurance frauds & fakers in the hobby, we all lose.

The one bright side is that the Moparts resident fakers & frauds identify themselves over & over for all the public to see.

I was wondering when John was going to chime in to stir the pot!

LOL !!!



How do you make a little old lady say "f**k" ?
Have another one yell "Bingo" !

Both vin and fender tag are original RO.

The ones that partake/endorse in VIN swaps/reboding openly have nothing to hide, and have acknowledged that this segment of the hobby exists, and always will...

What I have found surprising(not really) over the decades are the quiet ones that build, possess, buy and sell VIN swapped/rebodied vehicles over the years and do it knowingly, these are often individuals who will publicly denounce this practice (I see/know many of them here on Moparts and other forums waving the phony righteous banner), yet in a two face fashion, partake in it, I've met many renowned individuals in the hobby often endeared to the masses for saving/restoring a vehicle back to it's "originality", even one "registry" owner who proudly boast(behind closed doors) of their rebodied/VIN swapped vehicle(s) in their collection, or individuals who have shown me "enveloped" collections of VIN tags/fender tags/buildsheets of long lost vehicles, or actual vehicles too far gone, that they hope to shortly resurrect via a rebody/VIN swap and add to their collection, or resale at auction, National event, or Ebay, etc, etc...

IMHO the only things that are lost in this aspect of the hobby, are the vehicles, esp of prominence that are not resurrected via VIN swapping/reboding to see the light of day once again because of some gray misinterpretations of already vague laws, or perhaps crusades by self-anointed registry watchdogs to black list such vehicles, which in the end game have no real effect or impact, just another hurdle to overcome

Well said !!

Reading this thread is like watching "Groundhog Day". Basically the same thing over and over again. In I guess the close to the 20 years I have been on Moparts I've never read where a guy has changed his mind and took the other side of this arguement.

As for this RR in this question, I don't even see why you'd consider doing a resto on a car like that, not a cheap car to restore and there are much better examples available that really aren't a lot of money. Why you'd want to buy a car needing that much work and having hair on it is beyond me. Not smart.

For the record I run a "Registry" and have no rebodied car(s) in my collection.

Dave

So, Dave, you're well aware of the rotten 68 hemi RR that sat for years in Paris. What do you honestly think the best route for that POS is ?!?!

My comment above wasn't about the Paris Hemi Road Runner.

But since you asked its not really my call. I am sure there are talented sheetmetal guys out there who could bring that car back but I what does the best 1968 Hemi RR GG1 with a bench seat and a column shifter go for? Is that the car you always wanted? I like it but it wouldn't be my first choice.

If I got it for what the new owner paid, I think I would get leave it as it is. I would think about selling the Hemi and putting one of those mock up blocks in it and dress the top end up like it was a complete engine. Then just display the car like a piece of art. That would cool to me. And yes I am serious.

If I didn't do that I would sell it like it was and get something else I liked with the money.

As one of my friends is always reminding me of goes something like this...."Dave there are always going to be more cool cars out there to buy....why worry about that one".

He is right, on any given day I can find a car that I would like to buy.

Anyway that is my opinion, your opinion may vary.

Dave

All Mopars should be saved no matter the condition nor options car was born with unless its completely unrepairable/twisted in half by a wreck or some other circumstance. Once their gone their gone.

Wizard

Oh now that's why we see so many 4-door, triple green Mopars being saved?

If to you it is only about the saving of the car why are you making such a big deal about the original VIN? Go get the salvage title and State issued VIN tag and be done with it and save that Mopar? Or do as some have suggested go get an original VIN plate and re-tag it, but get one from a triple GREEN, 4-door, /6 just to make your point that you're doing it only to save a Mopar and not for any other reason.

BTW: Does anyone know the real reason for the door frame label with the VIN on it?

Wonder if someone pulled the VIN tag off of this one and re-bodied it?

I think it would buff out nicely with a little work and the next owner would never know.

I respectively disagree. Some special Mopars maybe save but not all and this particular car has too many strikes against it. There are plenty of realistically restorable and finished cars to go around. Collectively Mopars are not that rare and as we age, there may be more cars around than new owners who want the responsibility and expense of ownership. So it is of my opinion that we don't have to save them all and this is from me, a die hard Mopar guy that has more passion about them than most.

Doesn't the label certify that the vehicle meets the safety standards for that year and date of competition. Later cars had a mote accurate date/time stamp.

What other Mopars have you already saved Wizard? Do you have any before and after pics? How much do you figure you'll spend redoing the '71 Road Runner?

Dave

I every Mopar were saved, they wouldn't be worth anything.

Yes, I have saved quite a few Mopars 40 of them and some other cars, 68 and 69 Impala convertables, 49 Studabaker truck, 1926 Farmall tractor, and a 1950's refrigerator. All in poor bad shape.

"If to you it is only about the saving of the car why are you making such a big deal about the original VIN? Go get the salvage title and State issued VIN tag and be done with it and save that Mopar?"

I am not making a big deal about the vin. Just asked how do you get one and found out alot of information from others how the process works here. I do most of the work myself. Try to keep costs minimal.

Wizard

Agreed they weren't all meant to survive. For example a rebody of a 68 Hemi Road Runner would bring down the value of all 68 Hemi Road Runners.

Without donors, there would be less brought back from the dead.

Dave, you'll probably never "see" that, the guy that ultimately makes that decision to rebody because he finally realized that the project car he bought is either a total basket case, or is beyond his financial means and/or skill sets to restore, and realizes the only way to "save" it is a rebody, he won't boast because of the taboo surrounding the action/backlash of reboding from his brethren, if he releases the VIN publicly, those self anointed saviors of originality will black list the car without knowing the extent of the rebody...

I myself have no issues with reboding a vehicle in the past, present or future, I worked back in the day in a bodyshop where we did insurance rebuilds that involved "back-halfing" a vehicle, and in some cases involved the partial or full use of a donor, meaning VINs were swapped with the blessing of Insurance companies and local DMV/LEO in full knowledge of what took place, the customer usually had no clue, their only concern was to be made whole again by having their vehicle appear "new" again, as a sideline we also restored Vettes and Mustangs, Mopar restos came along in the early 80's for the shop, again customers sometimes supplied the donor's for partial or full use in order to restore their ride back to it's former glory, most didn't care how it was achieved, funny thing is the majority of Vette guys back in the day were very adamant about not using non OEM parts, or reboding/frameing/tag swapping...but as the years passed, it has long become a common and accepted practice to rebody/frame/re-tag a Vette, along with restamping driveline components, the Vette guys have been in the hobby a lot longer than the Mopar crowd, eventually reboding, retagging, reVINing, restamping, etc, etc will be par for the course in restoring a Mopar with total acceptance, until then, it'll always be a point of contention...

Mike

Surely you have a few pics to share? Don't be shy.

Dave

I can pick out a clown in a crowd... GEEZ! Just an opinion, that's all.

i'll say this about the 'vette guys. i always thought they were the most picky guys on the planet until the mopar resto reality came around. we make those guys look like pikers ! and you are spot on about the re-stamping ok those guys give to drivetrains, even on super high dollar cars it is acceptable. has been for years and years. a good friend of mine had a 66 or 67 427 [?] car featured in hemmings magazine several years ago. it was described as a "matching numbers" car, then, the story stated the re-build of the engine started with a core block from a ???. i personally know that was a re-stamp because he asked me if my shop had any numbers stamps that were whatever size and font was used. we didn't, but he eventually found what was required. when the car was sold to the buyer [who was a reasonably sized collector of those year cars, and not stupid about what is, or is not acceptable for them], he disclosed the restamp of not only the engine, but the transmission as well. large dollars were exchanged, everyone was very happy, and he gets complements even today about how well he restored that particular car. just crazy. we, on the other hand, take that doing with great affront, and we are also way above the vette guys in other areas of factory parts such as the absolute fit and finish of parts that will never be seen after installation. as an example, the inner door window mechanisms. another area is the external paint finish [orange peel, overspray, etc.]. we are quite above those guys in so many ways on every single component and the exactness of factory components and assembly techniques.

I have had everything for both of these cars for almost 30 yrs,titles in my name,vin tags,fender tags,one build sheet and all body numbers,both crushed a long time ago.You can even have the full vin but don't ever expect to see either one on wheels ! H mm,what to do ?

So I read the whole thread and I am surprised at some peoples stance on rebodying a car. For the rebody crowd I have a question, do you feel a rebodied car should carry the same value as the real deal? Should a numbers matching car carry no more value than a car with a replacement engine or trans and does the year of the engine matter? Consider your answer for not only when you are selling one of the recreations but if you were buying it. I think one already stated that they didn't give a hoot about numbers and it was more what the car was today that mattered. Would you pay more for a real 70 Hemi RR or is a 70 Satellite with a Hemi in it just as good, how about a super stock Dart/Barracuda?

As for the original car in question, am with many about there just being too many problems with this car for it to be worth the effort unless this is a special car to you (drove it to your prom or something). Without a fender tag you cant even verify it's color and trans after restoration. And unless I misunderstand the available option list John is correct it could be a 3 speed car, not that that changes anything but it could be.

There are a lot of "ifs" that need to be answered. For example: if I had the money... As well the answers will vary with each and every individual. Personally, I'm not into restorations so really couldn't give a hoot about a numbers matching car as long as it appeals to me and the price was right. I don't look at them as investments.

I believe that when a Mopar is restored using reproduction and or pieces of original metal harvested from other cars and going as far as replacing more than half of the original unibody and having to move and reweld in the hidden vin's, the car has been rebodied. Period. In order to save some of the worlds coolest automobiles, I understand that after all these years, sometimes this kind of work is absolutely necessary. I personally am not a huge fan of cars that have had nearly every single panel (including structural) replaced. If given the choice, I would spend my money on a car that was restored using one super clean unibody structure with all the factory welds still present. Seeing that the original hidden numbers were moved to that unibody would not bother me nearly as much as if they were moved to reproduction metal. If a car was reborn using only this strick type of restoration method, it would likely still get my hard earned money. I do not promote doing this type of work for huge profits and making up codes along the way to boost the value. I would like to see photos of the original car that was wrecked, burned, whatever and photos of its numbers in place and it's fender and dash tags and any other documents supporting the original vehicle. I guess what I'm trying to say is there are thousands of people into muscle cars in general and if I was standing in front of a great one for sale but the seller was telling me it had been restored using another unibody structure, I would want a clean title, all the original documentation from the original car and I would want that unibody to be super nice without questionable and likely incorrect welds. Honesty on the sellers part would also play a major role in getting my money. Sorry guys, just read all this last night and decided to type this morning. Lol

I like the 3rd option better, running away quickly from both cars because I wouldn't want either one of those.

Dave

Then why would you want to take the numbers off one car and put them on another?

Dave

Like it or not, these type cars are out there and they may not be that easy to run away from. I along with many others have seen work done that is truly incredible. I've owned over 45 cool Mopars since I was 15 and today I now have my reserves about driving something like an original or restored numbers matching hemicuda or the like. If I found one that hit a bridge abutment back in the 80's and needed a replacement unibody structure in order for it to be enjoyed again, honestly, a car like that would peak my interest at this point in my life. Fun to enjoy and represents what it originally was very well. Fun car to race too. Again, honesty is a huge concern here though. The honesty would likely end if I sold it to purchase something else. Being able to enjoy a hemicuda that seriously looks the part but let's me sleep at night is a big thing with me and many others. Trust me. I'm a straight up,honest guy and would never consider building a machine like that to turn a profit. My granddaughter and I would look alot cooler pulling in to get an ice cream in a car like that rather than pointing to a shadow box on my garage wall with the tags, buildsheet and title to a hemicuda inside it like a shrine for dead Mopars. Lol maybe I'm just getting old .

I miss the 80s,none of this mattered.

I guess I just don't understand why you need numbers to enjoy a car.
This car looks enjoyable to me and I would enjoy going out for ice cream in it.

You have to watch this short video too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EGMEX0XIbg

Dave

Wizard, I'm very knowledgeable on 71 B Bodies buddy, trust me, there are some really good, solid ones out there that can be had at very reasonable prices. Take anything that looks good off that one and keep the parts. I hate to say goodbye to these cars to but sometimes you really have to. It will wear you down and cost a ton more than its worth to bring that one back. They are not an easy car to restore. If it had all its proper vin numbers and it was a multi-carb, 3 pedal car with its drivetrain, that might be worth your efforts. A friend of mine just purchased a 71 GTX 440-6 4 spd all orig paint and numbers matching. Its rusty but worth the effort. Purchase price was under 10 grand. They are out there. Keep looking.

I've seen that machine many times....and i love it!! Im not overly concerned about having a car with all the correct numbers to find enjoyment. I'm talking like if you have all the numbers, clear title in your name and even the numbers correct original drivetrain. Why not use it? It would make a fun driver and look very correct. Maybe like a step above the average cloned car. My issue is that i'm honest about the things i do and i wouldnt want someone to try and pass it off as a restored original.

That is what you call an oxymoron.

Dave

Correct Dave...but what I meant is that im honest in the sense that I would tell everyone that I created a car using another as its donor. I like things done meticulously and I fear that if I built it looking too right, it might get passed off as a restored original to sombody if I decided to sell. Then again I guess all I'd have to do is post a vin number and let people know on forums. That would certainly eliminate any doubts.

Also, I do not posess any of these items for a hemicuda. Just using this as an example of a rare Mopar and some of my feelings on repairing and rebodying.

OMG - the mythical LA built HEMI car

Myself, the only "numbers" that I'm interested in are the ones that pass muster with the DMV/RMV, other than that I don't care what they are or where they came from, as long as they are clean...

If I own the "numbers/title" and/or the vehicle they belong to, I see no reason why they shouldn't/cannot be used on a "donor" vehicle if need be...

I know some will say "it's all about the money", perhaps it is for some?


I'll tell you about my first Mopar rebody, it was 1980/81, I had already worked a few years in a bodyshop where we did collision work as bread and butter, Vette/Mustang restos on the side, back-halfing/reboding was common legal Insurance and resto work...

We had a neighbor across the street from the shop, who owned a cherry 69 A12 RR, one day the car caught fire (electrical trunk fire) while parked in his yard, 1/2 the car was basically gone, the (ORIGINAL) owner was devastated,naturally he turned to us to "save" his car, he didn't want just another A12, he wanted his car, as so many owners in this type of situation did, he knew a rebody was the only way, he found the donor (base RR) and demanded everything that could be salvaged from his car be transferred, including all "numbers", his car was restored to his wishes, basically reborn from it's ashes if you will, he had no intention to defraud anyone, nor did we, that how things were done, to some, that's saving a car, to others today, it's fraud, back in the day it was no harm, no foul, and today I still see it as no harm

and now, there are complete 57 chevys, camaros, and mustang bodies [challenger maybe too ?] that just "require you to "supply" a "proper set" of numbers to then register as an original vehicle. all claim to be so authentic in construction you couldn't tell from original. spotweld types and locations, panel fitment, basic chassis welds and their nuances, etc. i'm curious how many of these have been sold, and if any hassles were encountered when it came time to go to the state dmv ?

I promised myself not to get into these discussions anymore cause I feel like I am just spinning my wheels. We have a difference of opinions. I am not sure where we have common ground other than we like Mopars. Your Watermelon Daytona is one of my favourite cars.

But where you see it as saved I see it as not only an A12 was lost but it ended up taking another Road Runner with it. I can't control what other people choose to do with their property but if you asked my opinion I would have rather seen the numbers to have stayed intact on the donor car and just the parts switched over. I could dig that and would have found the car interesting. With it now, not soo much.

Again I just don't see why switching over the numbers is important to you guys who claim not to be interested in numbers, investments, money etc...I must be missing something.

Dave

I'm reading that as the owner of the A12 wanted everything including numbers switched over.

I know of two very desirable Mopars close to me that have had everything including hidden vin's moved to donor unibodies many years ago. Both cars are truly awesome and a pro would be hard pressed to tell. Somewhere along the way, the truth about how they survived got left behind. None of my business and the cars are being enjoyed very much so I leave it alone. These cars are all over the place. I believe it's just the way things are headed to save some of them.

Rebodying has been around since man put wheels to an axle

Dave, for some they "need" the numbers, the "numbers" are their part of self satisfaction in a rebody/restoration I guess, for me, like I stated, the only numbers that matter are the ones the RMV/DMV "likes", or the ones that I have a clean title to, and or a vehicle they came with...

Someone on here once "challenged" me that I never used "numbers" from a /6,318 car on a vehicle of so called "greater value" numbers wise, I told them they lost that bet, I have used /6,318 numbers on some big blk higher end vehicles, because I truly don't care about the "numbers" in the sense that most restorer/investors/collectors do, if I buy a car much like the OP is interested in, my priority is a set of clean numbers to title/tag the vehicle, if "high end numbers" fall into my hand, so be it, usually my desired builds are already planned, long before the vehicle is found, personally I've never built a vehicle to "found" numbers, but I do know of plenty that have been built this way, often for personal reasons, not immediate resale

Mike

The only thing you seem to be missing Dave is the whole point of this thread. The OP has a car he wants to rebuild but it has no numbers.

This statement really doesn't make any sense. You/ya'll/he took another car and put his running gear in it and maybe the dash frame and the numbers, with an electrical fire significant enough to destroy a car, even in the trunk, smoked the interior so reasonable assumption that was replaced, reasonable assumption that it took out the gauges and all of the harnesses, he might have been able to move over the front fenders, grille and front suspension, maybe front rims but again if it destroyed the car from the rear the rear rims were probably warped. So what exactly of "his car" was left, really no more his car than the VW down the street.

Again to the original car of the thread, the reason the OP wants to save the car is he feels it's something special, EL1 4 speed, putting bogus numbers on the car loses all it's original identity.

It would be nice if these cars got a rebuilt/salvage title then they would be branded so unsuspecting buyers would know. I thini I would be more open to it if that was the case. If people were truly wanting to be honest about what they were doing they would report it to any applicable registry to hopefully avoid the truth getting lost.

The only reason to change numbers is to deceive someone, even if it's the DMV, there is an intention to deceive.

How bout moving your hidden stamped vins over to new replacement panels during a complete resto using framerails, upper and lower cowls, fender aprons, floor pans front and rear, trunk floor and drops, roof, quarters and tail light panel? Rebody or repairs? Intent to deceive or or not?

I personally wouldn't go to that extent on a car, almost any car. Granted if a trunk gutter is good I would reuse it along with any other part but I would not just move the number section over but that's me I realize it is done regularly. And yes when just the number section is moved over it is in attempt to deceive in my view.

Age old question, at what point is it no longer the original car. I have personally come to the conclusion that it is the passenger compartment/cage. Cowl, firewall, a-pillars, rockers, roof frame and rear quarter window structure area, you get my thought. Then I have to ask myself what if just one rocker needs replaced, or the cowl but the rear section is fine and then what about all the cars that were back halfed as a result of a collision and insurance repair early on. The water on that is very muddy, complete body replacement is not muddy.

I'll try to stay out from here but would like to know the opinions to my first questions.

Swapping VINs is not acceptable.


Slavery has been 'around' for thousands of years but it will never be 'right'.

So, your argument is invalid. Time spent doing wrong will never make the wrong right nor acceptable.

The OP wanted a solution for a car with no VIN - which can be done legally as suggested on the first page of this thread. Apply to the DMV / BMV for a state issued VIN & be done with it - legally.

Anyone suggesting otherwise is just damaging their own reputation worse than it already is.

Quite frankly, I am astonished that Tom allows members that encourage felonies over & over again.

Im not really sure but I dont think asking questions or voicing opinions on rebodying and moving vins over is encouraging felonies. Certainly not in this particular thread, but I believe its a topic that many of us Mopar enthusiasts should talk about. Its hard to really draw a definitive line about this. Maybe alot of hemicuda ex-race car restorers should be in jail right now. Were they doing the right thing? The wrong thing?

Actually the OP wants a dash tag and a title. The car has a VIN

Installing a dash and VIN from another and calling it good has been suggested in this thread.

I'm pretty sure that is illegal in all 50 States

I think I should have worded that a little different. When i say certainly not in this thread, I meant not talking about our questions and opinions on rebodying. We should take it into another thread. Sorry.

I just have alot of questions about the whole right and wrong of repairing and rebodying these cars in order to save them. Im actually taking it away from the original topic. I might start up a different thread about it. Sorry guys.

Why? They all revert to this thread. All the same cast of characters

Funny,factory has two bare shells,one gets tags for a lowly slant six,the other a Hemi and suddenly one is a highly sought after,the other just a low dollar turd yet they both started out exactly the same.

What if a guy at the factory accidentally put tags on the wrong car and later had to change them? Or stamped the wrong numbers? Factory error now worth tens times more?

The ONLY reason for VIN swapping and not using a state issued VIN after the original is gone is MONEY. Plain and simple. Your INTENT to defraud may not be there but 5-6 owners down the road when the story is neglected to be told, what happens then? A big, nasty lawsuit and Feds getting involved, that's what!

Some of you complain about red tape and the DMV, well that's just an excuse to take the easy way out. Have fun with court costs and legal bills when you get sued for misrepresentation.

Your quote sounds more like urban myth, or scare tactics employed by goody 2 shoer's to dissuade said action(s), your comparing the action of outright high dollar deceit vs placing some low end valued numbers to a low end valued vehicle, both long forgotten, where's this "money"?

Perhaps if someone took you for HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars or MILLIONS, you'd have the resources to recoup a judgement, but we're talking your basic overvalued Mopar junk here that everyone thinks is big bucks, even in the real world where high end collectors suspect they've purchased a vehicle that is "suspect" in some way, shape or form, it moves from their collections via trades, auctions, private sales, etc DAMHIK

No the two bodies are not the same. Some very specific Hemi only parts in the frame work of the Hemi car. They only made 50 of the Hemi's for example versus maybe 5000 of the slant 6 cars. Hence the difference in value. Moving the Hemi tags and numbers to the slant 6 body devalues the remaining 49 Hemi cars.

So I'll check back with you guys in a couple years to see where you are on this. Stay at it, I sure you can come to consensus !

Davtona's statement is correct IMO. It all starts when the car is ordered when a VIN is assigned and Body-In-White hangs or attaches a data tag WITH the VIN on the tag. Then Body-In-White stamps the "hidden" radiator support and drip rail serial numbers. The engine and transmission also get matching numbers stamped and that I think happens very early in the assembly process too and matched to the BIW body. Most of that is done well before the dash and dash VIN plate are ever installed or attached. There's a lot that has to be done or considered the very day the car's order is placed and a VIN assigned and whether it is ordered by a dealer or manufacture (sales bank, media, fleet, etc.,) A Hemi or V8 I don't think bolts up to a /6 k-frame or A/C works with a heater only firewall, or bucket seats or console mounts to a bench seat floor pan. Or dual exhausts have the driver's side exhaust hanger holes or..........on and on. All of the car's identity is created at the time of the order and it is what it is on that day including the VIN. Carry on, better yet OP go get a PA State issued VIN plate and restore it and drive it and be done with this madness.

Here in Sacramento we had a well known 70 hemicuda that had NO NUMBERS stamped in it.

It was purchased by a well known East Coast car pimp. Would not be surprised if it has numbers in it now.

Depending on the model and the options there are between ZERO (that means there is no difference between the bodies) and SIX pieces of sheetmetal that make up the difference. None of them are hard to add.

Exactly.

Carry on, better yet OP go get a PA State issued VIN plate and restore it and drive it and be done with this madness.

[img]http://macswebs.com/cddemo/67cd/documentation/vin/state_vin_pa.jpg

[/img] [/quote]


Do this for PA Dave(Wizard),I do this with ground up motorcycle builds to generate a VIN where there never was one.You are best photo documenting the reconstruction and keep all receipts for the build.Anything bought out of state or tax free you will have to pay state sales tax on at time of registration.PA has certain state inspection stations that are "enhanced inspection" facilities for this purpose.Have the door VIN ran by state or local police to see if exists or is stolen or other title status is known for peace of mind. One other option is a race only build,skip the paper all together!
RT

So here's a hypothetical question. Say a guy was to buy a '66 or '67 Belvedere or Satelite and doesn't much care for the dash and wants to custamizit with one out of a '68/'69 or '70. I'd agree that the car shouldn't be reg'd as the later model since it clearly isn't BUT according to some of the replies here swapping over the VIN is illegal too.

Some here, misinterpret the law regarding the "handling" of a VIN, even if it's going back on the same vehicle, some would have you think that you need the RMV/DMV and LEO present for a mere dash change requiring the swapping of a VIN tag from one dash to the other

Funny thing about these threads is if we were talking about trucks, nobody would give 2 hoots if we were swapping frames, cabs, doors, beds, VINs etc

The dash will not interchange without cutting and modifying. The VIN is on the door post on 67 and older Mopar cars.

Wrong once again.

I have reported VIN swapped trucks to the NICB & IAATI also.

VIN tampering is not 'cars only' & certainly not a .

Truck, car, boat anything VIN swapped & then insured with the new bogus numbers is insurance fraud.

Anyone that chooses to can report insurance fraud to the NICB at this link;

Click here to report insurance fraud to the NICB

It can be done anonymously.

No doubt, you've probably reported mattress tags removed or tampered with as well...

Awesome photo.

I will not ask why he visited or about what he was looking for.

That's not true. I brought up trucks with the VIN on the door and what if I changed the cab but kept the original frame and door.

Can't believe this is 5 pages and counting.

Interesting argument and I will admit I have changed cabs but the VIN maintained from the original cab and I have put heavier (think, 1 ton or 4WD) frames under good cabs with any assortment of body parts but again the original VIN was maintained. I think the difference to me is the intent to deceive, if it's a half ton VIN it will always be a half ton truck regardless of how it's equipped and cabs don't vary from one to another short of maybe how the floor board is cut. I have not issue with someone putting Hemi running gear in a base Satellite, my issue comes in when they attach the Hemi VIN to the base Satellite body.

To the original poster, this is something I did. I have a motorcycle frame that was given to me in SC years ago. I live in Tn, and wanted a title for it. I called not only the TN DMV, but also the SC DMV to see if the bike was ever reported stolen, both states said that they had no records that went back that far, and nothing came up on the computer, so I applied for a title for in Tn, and received one cause it is older than 1979. Used the original vin.

it happens all the time with big rig trucks
some of those trucks are worth a hundred fifty thou to a quarter mill
80k to swap out a frame cab door happens all the time.
the biggest laser frame machine in the state in newark has
truck cabs stacked up 3 high in the yard
i don't think they care much what is stamped on the part
they will stragtin the frame and slap it together
they will piece together all kinds of stuff
they take what is scraped up off the turnpike and they will rebuild it

I understand some of the arguments about owning two vehicles LEGALLY and holding legal titles and documents for both and then mixing and swapping parts from one to the other but this whole thread started with a vehicle in a salvage yard or farm field or wherever WITHOUT A VIN PLATE ATTACHED TO THE DASH, NO LEGAL TITLE OR DOCUMENTS TO THAT MISSING VIN PLATE, AND ABSOLUTLEY NO, THAT'S NO PROOF THAT THE MISSING VIN PLATE IS NOT REGISTERED TO ANOTHER BODY OF A CAR IT DIDN'T COME OFF OF and the OP wanted to know how to register or get a VIN plate MADE to match a FMVSS compliance LABEL on a door frame? What am I missing???? If this can be done as some have implied, you members that have cars that are not registered yet, or in the process of restoration and not registered yet, or just sitting in the yard behind the house had better hide the VIN because it seems that anyone can write it down, email it off to Vermont or wherever and take LEGAL possession of YOUR car without so much as a worry when they get caught about them legally owning it! Isn't this backa$$ward from HAVING A VIN and legal possession of a car and the VIN plate damaged and a legitimate need to have it legally reproduced?? THERE IS NO VIN PLATE ON THE CAR THAT THE OP WANTS TO HAVE ONE MADE FOR. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH REBODYING, OR SWAPPING PARTS. If the OP can have a VIN plate made with as little as a door frame decal and then end up as the legal owner, God help us all.


MikeR

In either situation a rebody was committed, a replacement frame carries a VIN from the donor,you are now combining 2 vehicles, if a cab was replaced, and the "original" VIN was carried over from the original cab it's technically a rebody, you yourself earlier said that you considered the passenger compartment structure of a vehicle as the main focal point of maintaining the "originality" of the vehicle when restoring it, that when that was replaced and the "original" VIN attached to the replacement, then it became a rebody...

IMHO Trucks because they are not deemed "collectable", fall into a gray area where the terms rebody, VIN swapping, donor vehicle, seem to have little to no concern, often when an individual slides a 4wd updated chassis under an old Sweptline we just say nice upgrade, or when every body panel, cab, frame was replaced using 2,3, or more parts trucks to make one vintage truck whole we just give a thumbs up for the effort, why do automobiles require a different set of "rules" in this regard?...they shouldn't

And that is why I have to give you credit for an interesting argument.

I think when the "hype" and the last of the speculators are truly done with the "hobby", and it long falls to the wayside like collecting/interest in Model T's, rebodied musclecars that were VIN swapped, created clones, recreations, etc, etc will be looked upon with little to no fanfare of their heretic beginnings much like Model T's and A's resurrected today literately from ashes or rust if you will

You missed the cars that are in States or Canada where they don't title older cars. You could do the same thing.

In the world of vintage race cars re-bodies are done all the time. A Lemans winning Porsche 917(?) has been rebodied IIRC 4 times. Still it sold for millions.

Some people would rather see these preserved rather than destroyed.

Rebodying vehicles has been performed for decades, cars of the 20's and 30's into the early 40's were often rebodied by various custom coach builders to either customize or upgrade the look of the vehicle rather than buying a NEW vehicle during that time period, most race cars, old and new often ran the same chassis for years and rebodying the outward appearance of the car to emulate the mfg's latest offerings, or race regulation requirements...

One only has to spend some time with some individuals restoring, rebuilding vehicles from early teens up the 40's to see just how much disregard there is for originality, VIN swapping,rebodying and the such when there's little to no vehicle or parts left to "restore" in the conventional/traditional sense...

I still say this in not or at least it didn't start out as a rebody thread. From what I read from the OP he has or wants to buy the body of a car he wants to have a VIN plate made from a vinyl FMVSS compliance label on that body's door frame, how is that about rebodying cars? How is that legal without any proof that the missing VIN plate from that vehicle isn't still in the legal possession of the owner of that shell. Does any know if that car is in a salvage yard, a private business lot, the legal owner's yard, etc., Can the OP have a VIN plate legally made to match a VIN on a compliance label on a car that he has no proof of owning or knows the existence of the missing originally assigned VIN plate? That was the question, not rebodying, not swapping parts or VIN plates or if it can be done in States or Countries that don't title, or in States that just require a VIN, real or made up, or the Corvette guys do it all the time or it's been done for decades or.......CAN THE OP HAVE A VIN PLATE MADE FROM A VINYL FMVSS COMPLIANCE LABEL ON A DOOR FRAME HE FOUND ON A SHELL OF A CAR? Simple question that turns, as always to What's the answer, can the OP have a VIN plate reproduced from just a (photo at best) vinyl compliance label or not?

MikeR

This is the best suggestion as there will be no winner/loser in this argument !!

YES HE CAN...I mentioned, as well as others thru out this thread just how, what, when and whatever was needed to pursue a repro VIN tag using the existing numbers he has, had this car been a mythical R or even V code, then it might be worth pursuing for some that get a hard on for VIN #s, otherwise as mentioned by myself and others either get a State issued VIN (more BS/red tape runaround) or just procure a set of "clean" VIN numbers/tag (Sat/RR/GTX) title it and be done...

Threads like this will deviate into moral/ethical dilemmas regarding rebodys, VIN swaps, repro tags, documents, plus some pull out their soap box platform to denounce said practices etc, etc, etc, it's par for the course, plus it's winter cabin fever time also

Cheap entertainment and for the most part a decent discussion, people align on different sides of many issues, there are many things that are considered acceptable today that aren't right in the beliefs of many.

My first course of action (if I was dedicated to this car) as mentioned would be to run the VIN in PA as well as several surrounding states to see if it is still active or possibly get info on the last registered only, who knows they may still have a title they are willing to sell you. Now you have legal grounds to get a reproduction VIN plate properly.

Mike did you see it in your crystal ball that all the various paints on those parts was applied at the various same times ???

If someone really wanted to one could STAGE replacing body panels with photographic PROOF and later show the REBODIED result that was driven UNDER the numbers ...

I'm still trying to figure out how the WIZZER is 100% positive this is a 4 speed car ?

Or did I miss that he has the matching number trans in that pile o' parts .