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Re: 4 speed install frustrations
[Re: BigDaddy440]
#1947710
11/08/15 09:06 PM
11/08/15 09:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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The crank was almost certainly from an automatic car, but the cavity looked deep enough for the input shaft nose.
DING,DING,DING, all of the OEM 1962 to 1974 RB, 413, 426 and 440 automatic crankshafts I've dealt with are not machine the correct depth or the correct I.D. for the stock length input shafts for the OEM NP 833 trans. and the stock Mopar pilot bushings. NAPA use to make a adapter pilot bushing that could be installed into the automatic cranks but that doesn't solve the depth problem  Slide the tranny out and measure through the clutch disc with a thin tape measure to see how far it is into the bottom of the cranksahft pilot hole to the mounting surface of the bellhousing and then measure the length of your input shaft to the face of the tranny face   I do know of several other Mopar racers that had thier input shfts shorten so they could run the automatic cranks with the NAPA pilot bushings
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 11/08/15 09:08 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 4 speed install frustrations
[Re: Mebsuta]
#1947923
11/09/15 04:37 AM
11/09/15 04:37 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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No, that is the later pilot bearing Mopar switch to sometime in the 1980 or 1990  I haven't used one of them yet as I still have several of the of OEM types and several of the NAPA adapter bushings in stock.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 4 speed install frustrations
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1948139
11/09/15 04:31 PM
11/09/15 04:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,750
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,750
Rio Linda, CA
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all of the OEM 1962 to 1974 RB, 413, 426 and 440 automatic crankshafts I've dealt with are not machine the correct depth or the correct I.D. for the stock length input shafts for the OEM NP 833 trans.n the automatic cranks with the NAPA pilot bushings I'd have to disagree with the "all" in that statement. The majority of forged automatic cranks were pilot drilled 13/16" which is sufficient to clear the 3/4" pilot on the 833 and are plenty deep (usually over 1 1/2") but only standard shift cranks were reamed to the final size of 15/16" to accept the bushing.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: 4 speed install frustrations
[Re: BigDaddy440]
#1948235
11/09/15 07:47 PM
11/09/15 07:47 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
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My '68 C body 440 came from a 727 car and the crank was drilled deep enough, just not reamed out. I just ran the late model bearing.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: 4 speed install frustrations
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1948250
11/09/15 08:10 PM
11/09/15 08:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,285
Ohio
64dodge572
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,285
Ohio
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We do not recommend using the NAPA undersize pilot bushing, as the auto cranks were drilled (not bored) and the undersize bushing will not be centered properly in the crankshaft. The correct way to use an auto crank is to set it up off the side of your mill, tram the flywheel register to make sure you are centered properly, and use a boring tool to open up for the standard .940 bushing----or just use the roller bearing.
Brewers Performance Inc. 4-speed transmission and parts specialists PH 937-947-4416 or 937-698-4259 FAX 937-947-4419 www.brewersperformance.com
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Re: 4 speed install frustrations
[Re: Paul_B]
#1948280
11/09/15 08:52 PM
11/09/15 08:52 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 72
Texas US
hemirag
member
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member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 72
Texas US
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Hook up the clutch linkage, have someone push the pedal to the floor and slide it the rest of the way in. Most clutch alignment tools are cheapo plastic ones that aren't that good.  I wrestled with my 4 speed install for days and found that it only got it close with the silly plastic tool. I had someone push the clutch and it went in the inch or so I needed. This worked for me also
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Re: 4 speed install frustrations
[Re: hemirag]
#1948581
11/10/15 04:11 AM
11/10/15 04:11 AM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 707
California
BigDaddy440
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 707
California
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RESOLVED:
In the past, I've been able to get other manual trannys
to mate together with the bell housing a bit easier than
this one, but it's now fully seated and I feel a lot better.
In the end it was my mistake (shocker). I used slightly
longer bolts to pull the to units together, as the gap between
the Trans and housing was to big to use the stock length bolts
for this purpose....so the longer bolts were simply bottoming
out in the bell housing making it feel as though the input
shaft was not engaging properly or worse too long for the
crank.
To resolve the issue, I used washers on the longer bolts so they wouldn't bottom out and they pulled the two units together enough that I could trade them out for the stock length bolts.
Thanks to all replys and suggestions. I either have a 4speed crank or some auto cranks do have enough cavity built into them for the input shaft.
Last edited by BigDaddy440; 11/10/15 05:09 AM.
1969 A12 Roadrunner
1970 Plymouth Cuda
1968 Dodge Dart
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Re: 4 speed install frustrations
[Re: BigDaddy440]
#1948661
11/10/15 11:59 AM
11/10/15 11:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
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RESOLVED:
In the past, I've been able to get other manual trannys
to mate together with the bell housing a bit easier than
this one, but it's now fully seated and I feel a lot better.
In the end it was my mistake (shocker). I used slightly
longer bolts to pull the to units together, as the gap between
the Trans and housing was to big to use the stock length bolts
for this purpose....so the longer bolts were simply bottoming
out in the bell housing making it feel as though the input
shaft was not engaging properly or worse too long for the
crank.
To resolve the issue, I used washers on the longer bolts so they wouldn't bottom out and they pulled the two units together enough that I could trade them out for the stock length bolts.
Thanks to all replys and suggestions. I either have a 4speed crank or some auto cranks do have enough cavity built into them for the input shaft. It's a bad idea to use bolts to pull the trans into place, you are lucky you didn't break something. The way I do it is to take two 3.5/4" long shouldered 7/16 bolts, cut the heads off and slot them so I can turn with a screwdriver if needed. I screw them in the top two holes as guide pins and slide the trans in on them. if it won't seat all the way I just use my long pry bar to push on the clutch fork and the trans slides right in the rest of the way. Put in the bottom 2 bolts and then replace the guide pins on the top.
running up my post count some more .
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Re: 4 speed install frustrations
[Re: JohnRR]
#1948746
11/10/15 02:46 PM
11/10/15 02:46 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 707
California
BigDaddy440
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 707
California
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It's a bad idea to use bolts to pull the trans into place, you are lucky you didn't break something.
John, I'll have to try your method in the future. I was trying to think of a way to use the fork with out the clutch pedal being set up to help with the ease of installation. I think I'll be ok, as the trans moved forward smoothly and didn't fight me at all. -Dan
1969 A12 Roadrunner
1970 Plymouth Cuda
1968 Dodge Dart
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Re: 4 speed install frustrations
[Re: BigDaddy440]
#1948872
11/10/15 06:00 PM
11/10/15 06:00 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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I use studs on the upper two mounting holes instead of bolts. I bolt the bell to the engine and the studs guide the trans onto the bell, if things don't align enough to let it slip in you simply use the clutch pedal to release things. I then use bolts in the bottom two holes and a nut and washer on the studs.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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