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My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! #1773483
03/06/15 05:59 PM
03/06/15 05:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,798
Lyons, CO
MileHighDart Offline OP
master
MileHighDart  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,798
Lyons, CO
Well now that I have my Dart looking real good, inside and out, it’s time to think about a change under the hood.
My current setup is as follows:

71 318, bored 030 over new pistons of unknown origin,unknown type
340 auto camshaft
Edelbrock performer intake manifold, and Edelbrock 600 cfm carb (1406)
69 340 exhaust manifolds, dual 2-1/4” exhaust all the way back, with walker quietflows
Heads are “U” heads, which I’ve been told are the same as “J” heads, basically 360 heads with 1.88 and 1.60 valves.
Mopar perf electronic distributor

This engine was built 17 years ago, but only has about 5k miles on it. It sat for a long time.

Car has a 904 auto with stock convertor, 8-3/4” rear with 3:23 gears, peg leg 225/60/15 rear tires.

The problem: This thing is a dog, it won’t hardly spin one tire from a dead stop on dry pavement. It seems to run pretty good once it gets wound up a little, but nothing to write home about. No low end torque.

I think part of the problem, is it’s pretty low compression, (360 heads on a 318), and I have no idea what kind of pistons the machine shop gave me when the engine was built. They said they had to use chevy pistons or something cause it was the only thing they could find with the right dimensions that used a floating wrist pin. This pistons have valve reliefs in them, but are in the wrong place to actually be functional.

I have no idea how far in the hole the pistons are, or what cc’s my heads are. I know when I did a compression test last spring I got numbers ranging from 105-120, quite a variance and not high enough.

So, I’m trying to decide on the best way to get some power in my car. First I need to pull the heads, measure deck height of the pistions, cc the heads and find out what they are and proceed from there.

Options I’m considering include:
New pistons, probably KB167’s which will give me a near 0 deck height, thinking no need for machine work since the engine only has a few thousand miles on it, Just a quick hone and install the new pistons.

A magnum head conversion, to get better flowing heads, with smaller combustion chambers to raise the compression up out of the dumps.

Have my current heads shaved to raise compression ( how much can I shave and how much will it help?)

Or maybe just pull this motor and replace it with a used Magnum 360.

Also if I get the compression up I’m thinking of a cam swap too, maybe a comp xe262h

Intended use for the car is cruising and the occasional spirited driving, not a drag car, I just want a little more power so I can peg the fun-meter !

Whatever I do to it, I’m only working with a budget of $1200-$1500 bucks. I think I could do a magnum head swap for that, or even a used 5.9 magnum swap.

So see the poll, and I’m open to any ideas you have to make this thing run as good as it looks.

How do I proceed
multiple choice
Votes accepted starting: 03/06/15 03:00 PM
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.
Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: MileHighDart] #1773484
03/06/15 06:11 PM
03/06/15 06:11 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,373
Rancho Cucamonga, CA
D_C Offline
pro stock
D_C  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,373
Rancho Cucamonga, CA
What condition is everything in? Is the carb new'ish or could it stand to be rebuilt? Also, how well adjusted is it for running in a mile-high city? That elevation affects performance. You may need to optimize your air-fuel mixture.

Getting everything you already have working up to its potential by tuning up might be in order? Dialing in more distributor advance often works wonders.

You could modernize by swapping in a Magnum Engine, but you'll need to make other changes as well. Maybe a nice old-school 360 and re-using some of your existing parts might work? Swap on some headers and add a Sure-Grip.

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: D_C] #1773485
03/06/15 06:13 PM
03/06/15 06:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,163
CT
GTX MATT Offline
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GTX MATT  Offline
master

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,163
CT
Put a 440 in it


Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: D_C] #1773486
03/06/15 06:29 PM
03/06/15 06:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,798
Lyons, CO
MileHighDart Offline OP
master
MileHighDart  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,798
Lyons, CO
Quote:

What condition is everything in? Is the carb new'ish or could it stand to be rebuilt? Also, how well adjusted is it for running in a mile-high city? That elevation affects performance. You may need to optimize your air-fuel mixture.

Getting everything you already have working up to its potential by tuning up might be in order? Dialing in more distributor advance often works wonders.

You could modernize by swapping in a Magnum Engine, but you'll need to make other changes as well. Maybe a nice old-school 360 and re-using some of your existing parts might work? Swap on some headers and add a Sure-Grip.




Carb was brand new when the engine was built. I did spend some time getting the jetting and such right for the altitude, and spent some time last spring messing about with the timing. Think I have it running as good as its going to.
Yes headers were also on my list, just forgot to ad that.
I don't think I need to worry about a suregrip right now, if I cant even spin one tire.

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: MileHighDart] #1773487
03/06/15 06:44 PM
03/06/15 06:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
H
HotRodDave Offline
I Live Here
HotRodDave  Offline
I Live Here
H

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
Magnum 360
Air gap intake
360 oil pan
Keep the serpantine set up get a cheap in line fuel pump and it will walk all over your current combo. Your current combo is terrible. A piston swap only gets you more compression, magnum heads help power all around but you got to buy different PRs and the heads and still have a flat tappet cam. The best part is you can do it in a weekend VS how long will machining a block have you engine down? You don't even know you can just stick pistons in till you tear it down, the rings on the KB167 go higher up the bore.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: HotRodDave] #1773488
03/06/15 07:08 PM
03/06/15 07:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,931
P
Paul_Fancsali Offline
master
Paul_Fancsali  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,931
Same issue's as you on 318 ended up at 15.7 with 4300 lb racing weight and 3.55s get the total timing up as high as it will go somewhere in the 44-45 range use Vac gauge with no vac advance ditch the carb and get a 600-650 dbl pumper Holley run N-14YC plugs the ones in the 318 are generally too cold. And you will hear get a 360 but you can make that 318 go my buddy's Dart Spt ran 14.4 with 318 and rebuilt stock heads

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: MileHighDart] #1773489
03/06/15 07:34 PM
03/06/15 07:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,356
Kentucky
D
dfsmopars Offline
top fuel
dfsmopars  Offline
top fuel
D

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,356
Kentucky
I'm with HotRod. Do a 5.9 with Magnum heads and you'll never regret it. My '72 b-body now has one with iron x heads, KB pistons, roller cam and lifters, small stall, 670 Quick Fuel with a normal belt drive set up and that engine yanks that car around effortlessly. It revs so quick and gets to the power range instantly. It is a a blast to drive even with 3.55 gears. I just don't think I could be happy with a built 318 period in a full interior and factory chassis car. My experience and


‘72 Charger, 5.9 Magnum, Tremec 5 spd., Pro-Touring
‘14 Big Horn, Quad Cab, 4x4, 1500
Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: Paul_Fancsali] #1773490
03/06/15 07:43 PM
03/06/15 07:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer Offline
pro stock
herkamer  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
Too much cam and not enough compression or converter for this altitude with that setup. I've been in some 318's that flat out run even up here at 5300'. We've surprised many a big block with them even in a B body. You might be able to tame the cam some with Rhoads lifters and regain bottom end.

That said, I would look for a 360 magnum donor. There are plenty of those around the u-pull lots around here. No replacement for displacement, and you then have a foundation for a future build also. That will be plenty of fun and peg the grin-o-meter.


Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: herkamer] #1773491
03/06/15 07:48 PM
03/06/15 07:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda Offline
About to go away
Supercuda  Offline
About to go away

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Quote:

Too much cam




Really?

The 340 cam is a broomstick.

0.442" Exh. Valve Lift; 0.429" Int. Valve Lift; Hydraulic; (050) Duration at .050 Lobe Lift; 220 Exh.; 210 Int.; 114 Degrees Lobe Separation


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: Supercuda] #1773492
03/06/15 07:52 PM
03/06/15 07:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
H
HotRodDave Offline
I Live Here
HotRodDave  Offline
I Live Here
H

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
Quote:

Quote:

Too much cam




Really?

The 340 cam is a broomstick.

0.442" Exh. Valve Lift; 0.429" Int. Valve Lift; Hydraulic; (050) Duration at .050 Lobe Lift; 220 Exh.; 210 Int.; 114 Degrees Lobe Separation




It is too much cam...






When you have 7.5 compression in a 318 @5000 ft elevation


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: HotRodDave] #1773493
03/06/15 08:07 PM
03/06/15 08:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,988
Warren, MI
J
Jerry Offline
master
Jerry  Offline
master
J

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,988
Warren, MI
turbo.


Superior Design Concepts
2574 Elliott Dr
Troy MI 48083
jerry@sdconcepts.com
www.sdconcepts.com
Facebook page: Superior Design Concepts
www.bcrproducts.com
Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: Jerry] #1773494
03/06/15 08:15 PM
03/06/15 08:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,068
Irving, TX
feets Offline
Senior Management
feets  Offline
Senior Management

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,068
Irving, TX
Quote:

two turbos.






Fixed.




We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: GTX MATT] #1773495
03/06/15 08:23 PM
03/06/15 08:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 992
Simi Valley, CA
MoparJ Offline
super stock
MoparJ  Offline
super stock

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 992
Simi Valley, CA
Quote:

Put a 440 in it




C'mon....there is plenty of relatively simple things that he can try to help his package out. A 318, especially in an A Body will run.


You can likely make decent gains by increasing the stall speed of the converter, upwards into the 2300-2500 RPM range. Going further on the driveline components, a little more gear such as a 3.55 with a Sure Grip setup would help without sacrificing much in highway economy. Get the timing set with as much initial as it will take, likely 16-18°, with total coming in around 34-36°.

Start there and see what you come up with.

From there, #302 closed chamber heads with stock valves or even 1.88/1.60 valves would get the compression up some, or the aforementioned Magnum head swap. Lots of fairly economical things that can be done to aid performance.


2016 Ram 1500 Crew Cab: 5.7, 65RFE, 4.56 gears with locker, Hemifever tuned, AFE intake, 87mm throttle body, JBA headers, 3" Flowmaster exhaust, split to dual 2.5" exits. 13.57 best ET so far.

Searching for new A or B Body Project!
Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: Supercuda] #1773496
03/06/15 08:46 PM
03/06/15 08:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer Offline
pro stock
herkamer  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
Quote:

Quote:

Too much cam




Really?

The 340 cam is a broomstick.

0.442" Exh. Valve Lift; 0.429" Int. Valve Lift; Hydraulic; (050) Duration at .050 Lobe Lift; 220 Exh.; 210 Int.; 114 Degrees Lobe Separation




At this altitude...most of you guys have no clue what a detriment 5000' is. A super hot 318 might run mid to high 15's up here.

Now a cheap fix for what's already there is advance the cam 4 degrees and go with the Rhoads V-Max lifters. Lose about 10 degrees of duration down low and that would really wake up what's there. Angle milling the heads for more compression would also help a ton.


Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: herkamer] #1773497
03/06/15 08:50 PM
03/06/15 08:50 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 992
Simi Valley, CA
MoparJ Offline
super stock
MoparJ  Offline
super stock

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 992
Simi Valley, CA
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Too much cam




Really?

The 340 cam is a broomstick.

0.442" Exh. Valve Lift; 0.429" Int. Valve Lift; Hydraulic; (050) Duration at .050 Lobe Lift; 220 Exh.; 210 Int.; 114 Degrees Lobe Separation




At this altitude...most of you guys have no clue what a detriment 5000' is. A super hot 318 might run mid to high 15's up here.

Now a cheap fix for what's already there is advance the cam 4 degrees and go with the Rhoads V-Max lifters. Lose about 10 degrees of duration down low and that would really wake up what's there. Angle milling the heads for more compression would also help a ton.




Agree with how elevation can affect performance


2016 Ram 1500 Crew Cab: 5.7, 65RFE, 4.56 gears with locker, Hemifever tuned, AFE intake, 87mm throttle body, JBA headers, 3" Flowmaster exhaust, split to dual 2.5" exits. 13.57 best ET so far.

Searching for new A or B Body Project!
Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: MoparJ] #1773498
03/06/15 09:00 PM
03/06/15 09:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 673
Emmett, Idaho
S
SuperStockWagon Offline
mopar
SuperStockWagon  Offline
mopar
S

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 673
Emmett, Idaho
Quote:

Quote:

Put a 440 in it




C'mon....there is plenty of relatively simple things that he can try to help his package out. A 318, especially in an A Body will run.


You can likely make decent gains by increasing the stall speed of the converter, upwards into the 2300-2500 RPM range. Going further on the driveline components, a little more gear such as a 3.55 with a Sure Grip setup would help without sacrificing much in highway economy. Get the timing set with as much initial as it will take, likely 16-18°, with total coming in around 34-36°.

Start there and see what you come up with.

From there, #302 closed chamber heads with stock valves or even 1.88/1.60 valves would get the compression up some, or the aforementioned Magnum head swap. Lots of fairly economical things that can be done to aid performance.




Exactly! That thin air at 5-6000ft is brutal,I know I used to live in it. at 2000ft I have healthy stock slant sixes that will burn a tire across the intersection!

At the very least I would stroke a fresh 318 to 390ci or so and put either 302 or 308 iron heads on it with a cam designed for your combo at that elevation. Or as others have said TURBO on a good healthy engine.


NHRA Stock/SuperStock Class Racing..Engineered Muscle In Motion!
Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: MoparJ] #1773499
03/06/15 09:15 PM
03/06/15 09:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,163
CT
GTX MATT Offline
master
GTX MATT  Offline
master

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,163
CT
Quote:

Quote:

Put a 440 in it




C'mon....there is plenty of relatively simple things that he can try to help his package out. A 318, especially in an A Body will run.




Sure it can, but dollar for dollar a 440 will run much harder. Just throwing out options, really depends on what he wants and what he can do

I was suggesting it more to stir the pot but honestly based on some of the other suggestions if he's going to get into swapping pistons (possibly honing required especially if going KB Hyper), heads (valve job?), possibly machining rods and crank depending on how old the build is, cam, couple hundred bucks for a marginal increase in gears, couple hundred for a slightly better torque converter he could be money ahead finding a strong running 440

Last edited by GTX MATT; 03/06/15 09:31 PM.
Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: GTX MATT] #1773500
03/06/15 09:42 PM
03/06/15 09:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,632
SHELBY TWP,,MICHIGAN
72N96RR Offline
I LOVE WEDGIES
72N96RR  Offline
I LOVE WEDGIES

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,632
SHELBY TWP,,MICHIGAN
Find you a nice 400 block and a forged 440 crank and never look back...
part out the 318 and do a budget 451 build...


1972 Road Runner / GTX 440 4spd Dana 3.54 Just about to turn 26K original miles..

A boat, a GMC truck, some Craftsman Tools, LOTS of Zombie Protection, and a few Goldfish..

If you love someone set them free..
If they come back it means nobody else wanted them either..!!
Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: GTX MATT] #1773501
03/06/15 09:42 PM
03/06/15 09:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 518
Georgia
S
Steve Bryant Offline
mopar
Steve Bryant  Offline
mopar
S

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 518
Georgia
I like the 440 comment! I swapped my 318 for a 440 and couldn't' be happier. It will exceed your budget by a couple thousand but 440 blocks are cheap, cheap, cheap.

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! [Re: MileHighDart] #1773502
03/06/15 10:16 PM
03/06/15 10:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
R
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
RapidRobert  Offline
Circle Track
R

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
(1) adv the cam 4 deg (2) dial in the dist subsystems in order (3) strip kit for the 1406, it's too lean out of the box here & if you're up in elevation it'd be even worse (4) closed chambered heads (mag/302) if you want to go that far. EDIT Google said elev 5,371 feet MORE EDIT with some more thought it might be LESS lean up there (less air) but you still need a strip kit to get richened from the out of the box jetting

Last edited by RapidRobert; 03/07/15 01:41 AM.

live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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