My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change !

Well now that I have my Dart looking real good, inside and out, it�s time to think about a change under the hood.
My current setup is as follows:

71 318, bored 030 over new pistons of unknown origin,unknown type
340 auto camshaft
Edelbrock performer intake manifold, and Edelbrock 600 cfm carb (1406)
69 340 exhaust manifolds, dual 2-1/4� exhaust all the way back, with walker quietflows
Heads are �U� heads, which I�ve been told are the same as �J� heads, basically 360 heads with 1.88 and 1.60 valves.
Mopar perf electronic distributor

This engine was built 17 years ago, but only has about 5k miles on it. It sat for a long time.

Car has a 904 auto with stock convertor, 8-3/4� rear with 3:23 gears, peg leg 225/60/15 rear tires.

The problem: This thing is a dog, it won�t hardly spin one tire from a dead stop on dry pavement. It seems to run pretty good once it gets wound up a little, but nothing to write home about. No low end torque.

I think part of the problem, is it�s pretty low compression, (360 heads on a 318), and I have no idea what kind of pistons the machine shop gave me when the engine was built. They said they had to use chevy pistons or something cause it was the only thing they could find with the right dimensions that used a floating wrist pin. This pistons have valve reliefs in them, but are in the wrong place to actually be functional.

I have no idea how far in the hole the pistons are, or what cc�s my heads are. I know when I did a compression test last spring I got numbers ranging from 105-120, quite a variance and not high enough.

So, I�m trying to decide on the best way to get some power in my car. First I need to pull the heads, measure deck height of the pistions, cc the heads and find out what they are and proceed from there.

Options I�m considering include:
New pistons, probably KB167�s which will give me a near 0 deck height, thinking no need for machine work since the engine only has a few thousand miles on it, Just a quick hone and install the new pistons.

A magnum head conversion, to get better flowing heads, with smaller combustion chambers to raise the compression up out of the dumps.

Have my current heads shaved to raise compression ( how much can I shave and how much will it help?)

Or maybe just pull this motor and replace it with a used Magnum 360.

Also if I get the compression up I�m thinking of a cam swap too, maybe a comp xe262h

Intended use for the car is cruising and the occasional spirited driving, not a drag car, I just want a little more power so I can peg the fun-meter !

Whatever I do to it, I�m only working with a budget of $1200-$1500 bucks. I think I could do a magnum head swap for that, or even a used 5.9 magnum swap.

So see the poll, and I�m open to any ideas you have to make this thing run as good as it looks.

Posted By: SuperStockWagon

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/07/15 01:00 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Put a 440 in it

C'mon....there is plenty of relatively simple things that he can try to help his package out. A 318, especially in an A Body will run.

You can likely make decent gains by increasing the stall speed of the converter, upwards into the 2300-2500 RPM range. Going further on the driveline components, a little more gear such as a 3.55 with a Sure Grip setup would help without sacrificing much in highway economy. Get the timing set with as much initial as it will take, likely 16-18�, with total coming in around 34-36�.

Start there and see what you come up with.

From there, #302 closed chamber heads with stock valves or even 1.88/1.60 valves would get the compression up some, or the aforementioned Magnum head swap. Lots of fairly economical things that can be done to aid performance.

Exactly! That thin air at 5-6000ft is brutal,I know I used to live in it. at 2000ft I have healthy stock slant sixes that will burn a tire across the intersection!

At the very least I would stroke a fresh 318 to 390ci or so and put either 302 or 308 iron heads on it with a cam designed for your combo at that elevation. Or as others have said TURBO on a good healthy engine.

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/07/15 01:15 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Put a 440 in it

C'mon....there is plenty of relatively simple things that he can try to help his package out. A 318, especially in an A Body will run.

Sure it can, but dollar for dollar a 440 will run much harder. Just throwing out options, really depends on what he wants and what he can do

I was suggesting it more to stir the pot but honestly based on some of the other suggestions if he's going to get into swapping pistons (possibly honing required especially if going KB Hyper), heads (valve job?), possibly machining rods and crank depending on how old the build is, cam, couple hundred bucks for a marginal increase in gears, couple hundred for a slightly better torque converter he could be money ahead finding a strong running 440

Posted By: 72N96RR

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/07/15 01:42 AM

Find you a nice 400 block and a forged 440 crank and never look back...
part out the 318 and do a budget 451 build...

Posted By: Steve Bryant

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/07/15 01:42 AM

I like the 440 comment! I swapped my 318 for a 440 and couldn't' be happier. It will exceed your budget by a couple thousand but 440 blocks are cheap, cheap, cheap.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/07/15 02:16 AM

(1) adv the cam 4 deg (2) dial in the dist subsystems in order (3) strip kit for the 1406, it's too lean out of the box here & if you're up in elevation it'd be even worse (4) closed chambered heads (mag/302) if you want to go that far. EDIT Google said elev 5,371 feet

MORE EDIT with some more thought

it might be LESS lean up there (less air) but you still need a strip kit to get richened from the out of the box jetting

Posted By: ahy

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/07/15 02:46 AM

With low compression, you have to go pretty deep into the engine to get it healthy... at that point the used 5.9 magnum looks pretty good. Better heads, decent compression and more cubes.

Posted By: GoodysGotaCuda

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/07/15 04:40 AM

If you do anything to the engine, compliment the rest of the power/drivetrain package with a quality/tweaked-to-your-combo torque converter and some deeper gears. It'll be a whole new car.

My 318 wasn't very complicated and managed a 13.6...not too shabby. Get the engine where you will be comfortable with it, and tune the rest of the driveline to work together.

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/07/15 05:29 PM

I guess it would depend on how much time and money you got. AND how bad you want to break the motor down. Before I went crazy and started tearing stuff apart I'd get a set of headers, a better intake and top that w/ a holley 650DP, then try a set of 1.6 roller rockers. As mention advance it some more. And you really should step up to 3.55's unless you do a ton of hwy driving.

Posted By: MileHighDart

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/07/15 06:03 PM

Good suggestions so far, except for the 440 talk, those guys must not have seen the part about the budget.

Anyway, changing the gears to 3;55 or 3:91, probably would help wake it up, but that's not happening. I'd say 90% of my driving is on the highway.
I live in a small town, and although driving around town with 3:91's would be fun, driving around town in Lyons takes about 5 minutes max.

It I want to go do something I either have to hit the highway for 15 miles to Boulder, or 12 miles to Longmont. I'm not going to do that with the engine screaming along at 3000rpm. So until I get an overdrive, steeper gears are out.

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/07/15 06:29 PM

Quote:

Good suggestions so far, except for the 440 talk, those guys must not have seen the part about the budget.

Anyway, changing the gears to 3;55 or 3:91, probably would help wake it up, but that's not happening. I'd say 90% of my driving is on the highway.
I live in a small town, and although driving around town with 3:91's would be fun, driving around town in Lyons takes about 5 minutes max.

It I want to go do something I either have to hit the highway for 15 miles to Boulder, or 12 miles to Longmont. I'm not going to do that with the engine screaming along at 3000rpm. So until I get an overdrive, steeper gears are out.

I drive mine 51 one way to the track. 90% hwy w/ a 3800 stall and 3.91's. Not a big deal 3k isn't screaming. I missed that part about altitude... I know you think Feets is crazy but a simple small turbo would give what you need w/ tearing the engine apart.

Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/07/15 08:17 PM

best bang for the buck will be a higher stall torque converter.
Cylinder pressures for this altitude are not too bad. Cam, intake, carb, exhaust are OK.
A set of the newer magnum type heads with smaller chambers will flow better and increase the compression ratio. Check Hughes Engines for the EQ (Iron Ram) heads for the LA engine block.

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/07/15 08:39 PM

EQ heads cost as much as a low mile JY 5.9

Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/07/15 09:00 PM

Not a bad choice either. I got a JY 6.1 Hemi with trans for $4k, but it is not an easy swap.

Posted By: Jerry

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/07/15 09:24 PM

At that altitude your engine is screaming for forced induction. Flip the exhaust manifolds buy an ebay turbo for $350. Spend a couple hundred more for plumbing, mod your carb for a blow through application and your done.

Posted By: Polarapete

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/07/15 09:25 PM

From an earlier post (I am sorry) I forgot who it was
"At the very least I would stroke a fresh 318 to 390ci or so and put either 302 or 308 iron heads on it with a cam designed for your combo at that elevation. Or as others have said TURBO on a good healthy engine."
There are several shops out there that have either a steel or a cast crank package with high compression pistons and good rods for $1200 to $1500

Leave the rest of the combo alone. I am planning that same deal for a truck 360 that already is .030 over for my D100. I may have to go lower on the compression because I live @ 600' (at the foot of Mt. Rainier) and you can get away with more. Good LUck

Posted By: StrkrDart69

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/08/15 05:45 AM

Quote:

Magnum 360
Air gap intake
360 oil pan
Keep the serpantine set up get a cheap in line fuel pump and it will walk all over your current combo. Your current combo is terrible. A piston swap only gets you more compression, magnum heads help power all around but you got to buy different PRs and the heads and still have a flat tappet cam. The best part is you can do it in a weekend VS how long will machining a block have you engine down? You don't even know you can just stick pistons in till you tear it down, the rings on the KB167 go higher up the bore.

Posted By: Sir Valiant

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/08/15 10:58 AM

Personally I would just try a gear change. I have a 318 in my 64 Valiant vert and it still has the original 7 1/4 which seems to be a pretty low ratio and the car did 14.5's in the 1/4 even with a huge vacuum leak!

If you were closer you could try my spare 3.91's.

Posted By: moparborn

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/08/15 06:11 PM

I agree with a turbo setup,requires some fab work but well worth it and can stay under or at budget.
A magnum swap is a good direction,will need some work,computer work or induction/electronics,can stay around budget limit.
A pair of closed chambered heads,1.88/1.60 valves,some head work,thin head gaskets,convertor and gears,headers,advance the cam,it will stay under budget also.

Posted By: roe

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/08/15 10:21 PM

I just replaced a mild LA 360 with a 408 magnum stroker. Kept the serpentine belt, performer rpm airgap, holley 3310. The power on tap is amazing, I couldn't be happier. Also, I had a 8.75 with 3.55 SG installed. And a year or two prior I had the trans rebuilt with low gear set, factory high stall converter, and transgo TF2 shift kit. I love the performance of the old pile of bolts.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/08/15 10:35 PM

Quote:

It will exceed your budget by a couple thousand

Oh thats the story of my life

Posted By: MileHighDart

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/09/15 12:00 AM

Quote:

I just replaced a mild LA 360 with a 408 magnum stroker. Kept the serpentine belt, performer rpm airgap, holley 3310. The power on tap is amazing, I couldn't be happier. Also, I had a 8.75 with 3.55 SG installed. And a year or two prior I had the trans rebuilt with low gear set, factory high stall converter, and transgo TF2 shift kit. I love the performance of the old pile of bolts.

What is the stall speed on the "factory high stall converter"?
And do you have a p/n, or where would I get one ?

Posted By: roe

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/09/15 01:00 AM

I dont have a part#, I just had the builder order it. IIRC it was somewhere around 2200-2300 or so. But since its behind a much stronger motor it stalls higher than its rating. I havent played with the car enough to nail it down say its right around 26-2800 or so

Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/09/15 03:18 AM

A factory replacement "CR8H" is supposed to stall between 1900 and 2400 rpm according to the transtar catalog. I don't know the pricing, but I'd expect around $100?

Contact Information
Transtar Industries
Denver, Colorado Branch
12330 East 46th Avenue, Suite 700
Denver, CO 80239
(303) 307-1999
(800) 525-9096

(right off I-70 and I-225)

If you need a higher stall then might have to go aftermarket or ask Transtar above. I got a heavy duty version (better sprag, I think roller?) of a factory high stall 727 converter and it was less than $200.

Fax (303) 307-0999

Posted By: MileHighDart

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/09/15 05:36 AM

Thanks for the info 451Mopar

Posted By: herkamer

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/09/15 05:46 AM

Also call Don over at Ajax Auto Parts in Arvada, 303.420.3696. Chances are he probably has a good used one for dirt cheap. Let him know I sent you.

Posted By: jeff57

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/09/15 04:51 PM

318 w/360 heads are pigs. can't make em run! sorry : get a la360 short block and use your cam and top end keep your cost at a minimum.you'll be happy, I did the same thing way back when and it just don't work for fast. 360-you will be happy.

jeff57

Posted By: franko

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/10/15 05:29 PM

If you don't want to go through the magnum head change,oil through push rods with oil through lifters the next best thing is closed chamber 273 heads.

Posted By: moper

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/10/15 06:10 PM

Quote:

Good suggestions so far, except for the 440 talk, those guys must not have seen the part about the budget.

Anyway, changing the gears to 3;55 or 3:91, probably would help wake it up, but that's not happening. I'd say 90% of my driving is on the highway.
I live in a small town, and although driving around town with 3:91's would be fun, driving around town in Lyons takes about 5 minutes max.

It I want to go do something I either have to hit the highway for 15 miles to Boulder, or 12 miles to Longmont. I'm not going to do that with the engine screaming along at 3000rpm. So until I get an overdrive, steeper gears are out.

I always find it funny when highway (3000rpm) is defined as "screaming". The only reason you say that is you're used to modern 7 speed autos or OD equipped cars that trudge along under 2K at highway speeds. You already have 3.23s. Going to 3.91s will give you a lot more snap, and raise the cruise rpm about 400. In the 80s trucks would cruise at 3500 all day, with trailers and no overdrive. These engines were developed at a time when that was normal, and they were used that way every day. The issue is not entirely the engine - but your own nerves. I'd swap the gears and get a factory high-stall convertor and drvie the snot out of it.

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/10/15 08:07 PM

New gears and highstall converter cost as much as swapping to a 360 magnum and still won't be as fun. Also the new cars last a lot longer, cars used to be considered all washed up by 100,000, now they are considered crap if they don't last at least twice as long... those high RPM do take a tole on the engine.

Posted By: MileHighDart

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/12/15 02:38 AM

Think I'm definitely leaning toward the 5.9 Magnum.
Although I still need to add up the costs. On top of the engine, I'm looking at magnum compatible intake manifold, probably a new carb, headers, electric fuel pump, etc, etc. probably a few things I'm forgetting.

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/12/15 07:08 PM

Your carb and exhaust do not need replacing unless they are bad, they will work just fine

Posted By: MileHighDart

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/12/15 07:30 PM

Quote:

Your carb and exhaust do not need replacing unless they are bad, they will work just fine

That's good to know. Wasn't sure if my 600cfm Edlebrock carb would be enough for the 5.9

And I've heard something about the early 340 exhaust manifolds not matching up correctly to the ports on the magnum heads. Is this false ?

Here is a quote from Magnumswap.com
"Note: There are varying reports as to whether stock car-style manifolds will bolt up to magnum heads. Throughout our testing we have found a mismatch on the exhaust port openings between Magnum heads and the classic 340HP manifolds."

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/12/15 07:46 PM

There is a little mismatch but not enought to cause any issues, if it was overlapping the other way it would cause a severe restriction.

Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/12/15 08:05 PM

Quote:

Think I'm definitely leaning toward the 5.9 Magnum.
Although I still need to add up the costs. On top of the engine, I'm looking at magnum compatible intake manifold, probably a new carb, headers, electric fuel pump, etc, etc. probably a few things I'm forgetting.

I think the magnum is external balanced, so you may need the B&M flexplate, or put weights on the converter. I don't think you can just swap to a 904 magnum converter because it looks like the input shaft spline count changed?

Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/12/15 11:58 PM

Sounds like the proverbial "Pandora's Box".

Personally, I'd either overbore to a set of KB167 (or KB399's) OR do a 4" stroker. Keep the "J" heads and all the other cost to go Magnum doesn't rear its ugly head.

I lived in the Broomfield/Arvada/Louisville/Westminster/Lafayette area of CO back in the early 80's. Passed through Lyons several times. Keep the 3.23's and build an efficient pump gas torque motor (meaning highest compression for altitude) that will pull to 5500. Done.

Posted By: roe

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/13/15 01:09 AM

I was leaning heavily towards doing an LA based stroker motor too. Originally planned a 318 based, then a 360 based after the 318 took a dump and was replaced.

But when the chance to swap to a 5.9 mag stroker came up I jumped on it for several reasons. The ability to go roller and not have to worry about wiped lobes was a major factor. Also the advantage of all around better mag heads, better combustion chambers, easier to build for quench, higher comp ratio, flows better... And I really wanted to go with a sepentine belt and the much better magnum alternator. I figured if im going to spend money, why not spend it on the best smallblock combo for me. My cost was only increased by the price of the core. And I didnt want to swap to a BB.

Posted By: MileHighDart

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/13/15 01:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Think I'm definitely leaning toward the 5.9 Magnum.
Although I still need to add up the costs. On top of the engine, I'm looking at magnum compatible intake manifold, probably a new carb, headers, electric fuel pump, etc, etc. probably a few things I'm forgetting.

I think the magnum is external balanced, so you may need the B&M flexplate, or put weights on the converter. I don't think you can just swap to a 904 magnum converter because it looks like the input shaft spline count changed?

Your thinking LA-360,
The 5.2 and 5.9 Magnum engines are neutral balance just like a 318. You can absolutely bolt up a 904 to a 5.9magnum, just have to use the magnum flexplate, and your neutral balance 904 - 318 torque converter.

Been reading up on this stuff at magnumswap . com

Posted By: moparborn

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/13/15 01:30 AM

So for a magnum swap,you are back to needing the motor and an intake,exhaust plus misc. parts.
Seems like the way to go.
When the funds allow for it,do up a set of heads,add a bigger cam,a little more carb and you are making HP.

Posted By: dogdays

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/13/15 01:55 AM

Why oh why do people get this crap mixed up?

The 5.9 Mag motor is NOT internally balanced. That isn't even worth discussion. But it will work with a 318 or 5.2Mag torque converter if you use the 5.9Mag flexplate, because the imbalance is built into it.

RE: altitude...It's a fact that horsepower decreases by nearly 20 percent going from sea level to 6000 ft.

No amount of tuning can replace the lack of atmospheric pressure that pushes the air into the engine. You flatlanders should also be aware that octane numbers are smaller at altitude because the engines don't need as much to run without knocking. So what is 87 octane at sea level is 85 at the pump a mile up.

With that in mind the advice to turbocharge isn't as far out as it would seem.

The best choice would seem to be either Mag engine, maybe they are becoming more available there. When I lived there a few years ago prices were too darn high.

A cheap alternative would be to advance the cam 4 degrees as suggested above, and stick on a pair of junkyard 302 heads, still probably sitting in that maroon '86 Fifth Avenue in the junkyard. Or maybe you'd prefer the blue one. Or the white one. Spend the extra few dollars and use the Mr Gasket thin head gaskets. The combo will raise your compression by at least half a point, and going from 8.0 to 8.5 can really help.
Don't rebuild the heads, just replace the valve seals and slap'em on and see if that helps.

If you stumble across a pair of Mag heads you should know it is possible to use your intake on them by elongating the bolt holes and making angle spacers. If you have an aftermarket camshaft the odds are at least 10-1 that you already have the right lifters, just need a set of pushrods with holes in the ends.

And for those of you suggesting 308 heads, forget it. They are almost impossible to find and they have the same chambers as the heads he has now. Not worth the effort.

So either do the JY 302 head boogie or else look for a Mag motor that you can swap in, most of the other suggestions will cost more than they're worth, or else put you walking for several months.

One other thing - Distributor advance curves. A properly set up distributor can wake a motor up with no other changes to the motor. That should really be the first thing you do.

Posted By: Geezer

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/13/15 04:13 AM

Quote:

Sounds like the proverbial "Pandora's Box".

Personally, I'd either overbore to a set of KB167 (or KB399's) OR do a 4" stroker. Keep the "J" heads and all the other cost to go Magnum doesn't rear its ugly head.

I lived in the Broomfield/Arvada/Louisville/Westminster/Lafayette area of CO back in the early 80's. Passed through Lyons several times. Keep the 3.23's and build an efficient pump gas torque motor (meaning highest compression for altitude) that will pull to 5500. Done.

Posted By: GY3

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/13/15 04:44 PM

Quote:

318 w/360 heads are pigs. can't make em run! sorry : get a la360 short block and use your cam and top end keep your cost at a minimum.you'll be happy, I did the same thing way back when and it just don't work for fast. 360-you will be happy. jeff57

I had quite the opposite experience.

Granted, a 360 bottom end will always outperform one with a 318 bottom end, but mine did well for what it was.

Wore out, ringed and bearinged 318 with 360 J heads, M1 intake and Holley 750 3310. With horribly low compression, 3.23 gears and street tires it would do 14's at 95 mph and still get 17 mpg in my '71 Barracuda.

Lowest budget and one of the funnest motors I ever built. Friends still comment on it to this day! (This past weekend in fact!)

Posted By: 3hundred

Re: My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change ! - 03/13/15 06:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

318 w/360 heads are pigs. can't make em run! sorry : get a la360 short block and use your cam and top end keep your cost at a minimum.you'll be happy, I did the same thing way back when and it just don't work for fast. 360-you will be happy. jeff57

I had quite the opposite experience.

Granted, a 360 bottom end will always outperform one with a 318 bottom end, but mine did well for what it was.

Same here, '82 Ramcharger, 318 w/ '82 360 heads, 4 bbl, otherwise stock. Ran MUCH better and beat up on 305 4 bbl Chevy trucks on a regular basis back in the mid '80's. 2�

Robert

My 318 is a dog, Need to make a change !