Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: herkamer]
#1702021
11/26/14 09:18 AM
11/26/14 09:18 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,958 Oakdale CT
gdonovan
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Been keeping an eye on this thread as I am a big fan of EFI. Been considering some form of fuel injection on my 360 Duster and a setup with GM 454 throttle body intrigues me just enough that I might look into it.
The motor is healthier than stock and the 454 TBI setup just might fit the bill.
"I think its got a hemi"
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Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: gdonovan]
#1702022
11/26/14 02:01 PM
11/26/14 02:01 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,269 Slantytown
DUFFMAN
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I guess I need to hit a junkyard and see what I can find. Sounds like a GM Throttle body might be the way to go.
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Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: DUFFMAN]
#1702023
11/26/14 11:45 PM
11/26/14 11:45 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305 Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer
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Definitely keep an eye out on Craigslist for used Pro-jection units. I see them for $2-300 on occasion. It's a great basic start once you ditch the terrible computer and replace with MS.
Matt 69 Dart Swinger 340 83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car and even more
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Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: herkamer]
#1702024
11/27/14 12:30 AM
11/27/14 12:30 AM
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Posts: 11,269 Slantytown
DUFFMAN
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When it comes to Holley Pro-jection do you have any insight on the different system? What is the difference between 1d, 2d, 3d, etc. What should I be looking for?
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Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: DUFFMAN]
#1702025
11/27/14 01:31 AM
11/27/14 01:31 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305 Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer
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It won't matter much, especially if you are just using it for parts and wiring. All the 2 barrel units are rated at 670CFM, and used the 454 throttle body with a square bore adapter on the bottom. They all use 85lb/hr injectors and theoretically should support 275HP. More fuel pressure would up that some. The 2D was the second generation computer, and digital. Any of the Pro-jection 4 units have 4 injectors and higher CFM, and would require the use of either resistors or the peak & hold board I mentioned earlier. None of the MS can drive 4 of those low impedance injectors without mods. They can support substantially more HP with double the fuel delivery capabilities. 90-93 Chevy 454 trucks are also good candidates for parts removal.
Matt 69 Dart Swinger 340 83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car and even more
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Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: plazomat]
#1702028
11/27/14 02:13 AM
11/27/14 02:13 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305 Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer
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I don't know how they rate them, that's Holley's advertised CFM. Using one for parts only will not matter much . I have a fast idle solenoid on mine for warm up. I don't need an IAC, nor do I have the 2 extra outputs to run it since I am using those for overdrive and lockup. We aren't talking about running it with Holley computer, that goes directly into the trash and replaced with a Megasquirt. That is MY suggestion to have a fully controllable EFI system on the cheap. Again I have done this, have the running truck to prove it.
Matt 69 Dart Swinger 340 83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car and even more
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Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: rory73]
#1702030
11/27/14 02:40 PM
11/27/14 02:40 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305 Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer
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The 4Di is tunable via laptop, and not exactly what I'm suggesting to hunt down as a donor unit. It's certainly a much better offer than the 2 or 2d, but it still lacks somewhat in flexibility of what even a basic Megasquirt can provide. The early 2 barrel ones only had 2 base maps for every possible engine combination, with fine trim with pots on the front. Surprisingly enough they would run some vehicles ok, but don't think they ever ran reliably for long. That's why they can be had for cheap used. It was a great starting point for me to jump into EFI on the cheap. The biggest expense was the Megasquirt itself, and I got mine before they offered the Micro. It's pretty cool to build something from a box of parts and have it run your vehicle as good as any factory computer.
Matt 69 Dart Swinger 340 83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car and even more
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Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: herkamer]
#1702031
11/28/14 02:13 PM
11/28/14 02:13 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533 Indiana
Fury Fan
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We talked a little about the 454 being unnecessary for a 318, but the 360 TB has 2" bores, same as the 454, and isn't the 318 using the same TB??? 454TBs cost a lot more on ebay (as of a few years ago, anyway) but an extra $50-75 now might be worthwhile for the future. Herkamer - Why are you suggesting to get a used Holley setup and then throw most of it away, and buy an MS? (not meant to sound combative). Explain that a little more, plz. Seems to me that buying that for 2-$300 will get you a Holley TB with Holley-specific injectors, right? Why not just get a GM TB and pigtails at a JY (for far less), you can mix-match parts and pick what looks like the freshest parts, and then splice into the MS/harness that you'll be buying anyway? And GM sensors/parts are at every parts store, you can tweak the GM TB later if you want, Holley not so much on both aspects. IMHO the only reason to buy a Holley system is to get the 4-inj TB (didn't know MS couldn't run that without mods), but even then I'd say that a bored 454 TB with early injectors and later/or tweaked regulator for more fuel pressure could do just as well and probably be more reliable.
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Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: Fury Fan]
#1702033
11/28/14 02:55 PM
11/28/14 02:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305 Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer
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Bore size with this only refers to possible air flow capability of the throttle body. The computer will only command the needed fuel, so having a throttle body that flows 1000CFM vs 450 makes no difference to the engine until you exceed that capability. Overrating here is not a detriment. As long as you know the flow rate of the injector, you can determine how much fuel each pulse will throw. Bigger injectors use smaller pulsewidth.
My reason for suggesting a used Pro-Jection is that you can get a kit; throttle body, wiring, fuel pump. One stop shopping from someone who has given up on the Holley computer. You can save $30 by buying the Microsquirt with the 30" harness and splicing it the Holley harness.
Also, Holley was the OEM for both GM and Chrysler, so the injectors are all Holley. There is nothing specific to the OEM vs aftermarket units. They are all low impedance, around 1-2 ohms.
The early 454 unit will support around 275HP at base fuel pressure. I would say that's pretty accurate, the one on my 360 is probably close to the limit. I also didn't build it for all out performance, it's a 1 ton truck.
Matt 69 Dart Swinger 340 83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car and even more
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Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: herkamer]
#1702034
11/29/14 01:09 AM
11/29/14 01:09 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,269 Slantytown
DUFFMAN
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Just a thought. I've been looking at CL and I can find whole, running Dodge trucks for $500-700. Sure they're 2wd, and pretty much rusted to dirt, but they run good. So, I'm thinking I could buy one, swap the whole system and junk the rest. My net cost would only be $200-400. Then I'd just install the factory system including the ECU. Once I get it running then swap out the ECU for something tune-able, like a Megasquirt. Then again maybe it will run fine off the stock computer since it's a near stock 318. I would think it would be a cheap easy way to baseline a system. Maybe I'm oversimplifying?
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Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: DUFFMAN]
#1702035
11/29/14 02:18 AM
11/29/14 02:18 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305 Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer
pro stock
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That would definitely be one way to do it. They are very lackluster in performance though. My 88 Ramcharger barely has enough power to keep it going 65 on the highway. Pretty sure it has had the snot ran out of it prior to my ownership. It pushes snow ok, and that is all it needs to do. Being at 5300' doesn't help my cause either. Figuring your mill is pretty much stock, that might not be a bad way to go as a starting point.
Matt 69 Dart Swinger 340 83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car and even more
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Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: DUFFMAN]
#1702036
11/29/14 11:33 AM
11/29/14 11:33 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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Manitoba, Canada
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There was a web page out there with a listing of all the factory GM TBI injector flow rates. If memory serves I did the math one time and even 3 of the stock 350tbi's would be hard pressed to provide enough fuel and air flow for a 550hp 440. If you decide to run one of these, be sure you know it's limits. If I was doing a stock LA 318 or a slant 6 conversion to efi, I would consider one. Same for any kind of low revving tow rig. A mild small block with a dual quad intake and two tbi's might do okay. FWIW, I bought a MS-2 years ago and haven't gotten the car back together yet to put it on. But if will do everything you would need it to, including low impedance injectors. Quote:
Just a thought. I've been looking at CL and I can find whole, running Dodge trucks for $500-700. Sure they're 2wd, and pretty much rusted to dirt, but they run good. So, I'm thinking I could buy one, swap the whole system and junk the rest. My net cost would only be $200-400. Then I'd just install the factory system including the ECU. Once I get it running then swap out the ECU for something tune-able, like a Megasquirt. Then again maybe it will run fine off the stock computer since it's a near stock 318. I would think it would be a cheap easy way to baseline a system.
Maybe I'm oversimplifying?
I swapped a 5.2 magnum out of a 99 dakota into my carbed 88 jeep wrangler. After I put the engine in I started dissecting the dakota harness. After discovering the OBD-2 harnesses are a rats nest of wiring and the OBD-2 computers don't like to run outside the vehicle without a recalibration I went to the junkyard and found a harness in a 95 5.2L jeep grand cherokee. The OBD-1 magnum harnesses (1992-1995 only) are much simpler to dissect and after I was done the engine harness only needed two or three wires to be tied into my carbed harness. The rest was self contained. I ended up swapping in a computer out of a manual trans ram(my jeep is a manual trans anyway), as the donor cherokee had an auto trans ecu with security that refused to run. Since I don't have any plans to modify the engine, I have no need for a tunable aftermarket ECU or an OBD-2 that can be recalibrated. Stock is just fine seeing it's a 100hp upgrade from my old engine. The best part is now that it's in there it runs great, just like any stock 5.2 ram. Fires up at the flick of a key, required me to invest zero tuning time. I paid 300 bucks for the dakota engine that I got to hear running before he pulled it. Then another 60 or so between the junkyard engine harness and the ebay ECU. I did have to snag the engine sensors off the 95 5.2 in the junkyard as the connectors on the 99 engine had changed. However the sensors were plug and play.
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Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#1702037
11/29/14 02:58 PM
11/29/14 02:58 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,269 Slantytown
DUFFMAN
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The 318 I'm looking to run this on is a 1972 LA with shaved J heads, thin head gaskets, (can't remember the crush thickness, but I calculated about 9:1 compression ratio when I did it) and a crane cam with similar lift and duration to a stock 340 cam. (I'd have to find the card for specifics). Right now I have a stock 1972 340 intake and thermoquad on it. It runs good for the most part, but I've always had problems getting the choke to operate correctly, thus it can be hard to start when it's cold.
For the most part I don't need to do it, this is more of a want, mainly to see if I can pull off setting up an EFI system for a little more than the cost of a decent carb and intake.
A lot of great information in this thread. I didn't know some many people here have done EFI conversions. I've done one in the past and it was retro-fitting a stock system to an older car. This was way before aftermarket electrical was available.
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Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#1702038
11/29/14 03:48 PM
11/29/14 03:48 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533 Indiana
Fury Fan
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Quote:
FWIW, I bought a MS-2 years ago and haven't gotten the car back together yet to put it on. But if will do everything you would need it to, including low impedance injectors.
I remember you having one of them on the shelf - glad to hear you haven't installed yours yet. MAkes me feel better about not having installed mine either.
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Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: Fury Fan]
#1702039
11/29/14 06:58 PM
11/29/14 06:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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Quote:
Quote:
FWIW, I bought a MS-2 years ago and haven't gotten the car back together yet to put it on. But if will do everything you would need it to, including low impedance injectors.
I remember you having one of them on the shelf - glad to hear you haven't installed yours yet. MAkes me feel better about not having installed mine either.
Lol ya. I pulled the engine out after the 727 let go. Then I found a rusted cowl drain to fix. Now I have the car in primer and the machine work done on the engine. Then somewhere in between I got a boat, a truck, a jeep, a wife, a house and a baby. Where does the time go?
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