Moparts

Budget small block EFI

Posted By: DUFFMAN

Budget small block EFI - 11/23/14 01:41 AM

For years I've been tossing around the idea of converting my 1972 Coronet driver to EFI. Obviously the car isn't worth a ton of money so I cringe at the idea of spending thousands on an aftermarket system. It also is only packing a 318 with no huge performance mods, it's just a car I enjoy driving. So to make it more reliable, possibly get better mpg, and just to see if I can do it, I've thought about doing an inexpensive EFI using late LA throttle body injection parts from a junkyard. I would love to do multi-port, but changing to Magnum heads is cost prohibitive.

So here's the idea, I start with a throttle body and intake from a junkyard. I haven't looked closely at one but I would suspect that most of the sensors should be contained there; coolant temp, air charge temp, and throttle position. I'm not sure about the MAP, but if it's like the 80's FWD it's remote mounted. I could take the engine harness as a start for the wiring.

I would imagine I would need to get the timing cover and crank pulley for the crank position sensor.

Before removing the carb I could take it to an exhaust shop and have an O2 bung welded in.

Everything could be run by a Megasquirt controller.

I'm not sure what to do about the fuel pump. I haven't been able to find any info on the pressure and flow requirements. I would like to mount it in the tank so I don't have to run a return fuel line and make for a cleaner installation. I'm not sure if anyone offers an fuel pump that fits in the stock b-body tank.

What else am I missing? Thinking about starting to gather parts for spring.
Posted By: shanker

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/23/14 01:49 AM

I suspect, that you're one of MANY people who would LOVE to do the same to their drivers that have at most, very mild performance mods...


I for one have always wanted a daily driver mopar muscle car, with Power Windows, Cruise Control, A/C, EFI, bump the key and go reliability, 16-22mpg range, and as quiet on the inside as a modern vehicle (such as a charger)...

ideally this car would be an A-Body....
Posted By: DUFFMAN

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/23/14 01:53 AM

I'm not big on AC, but power locks and power windows are on my list. Hoping one day to find the window regulators reasonably priced since they'd be out of a 4 door anyway. I'm not sure if they are the same for 2 and 4 door.
Posted By: plazomat

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/23/14 03:50 AM

Depending on how much time you want to invest and how good you are with ya hands..and how much of a rush you are in.take a look at

speeduino..https://github.com/noisymime/speeduino

I am following the project closely - I am hacking up a cheapo GM ECU, taking all the HEI stuff and TBI unit from a 350 and using the speeduino to control it..I hope to have a small block running late next year.

I will be in for way under $500 but a boat load of effort to get up and running - likely will have to add some custom touches to firmware to run off dizzy vr sensor until I can get a crank sensor figured out.

Plaz
Posted By: herkamer

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/23/14 06:02 AM

There are several different ways to get it done. Having done one conversion, I'll give you my opinion on how to do it on the cheap.

First, if you are going to salvage a stock LA TBI setup, get one from a 360. Bigger throttle body and more power potential. They were never set up for power at all, so you need every advantage you can get. Next I wouldn't worry about sensors on the Dodge, for MS you are better to use the GM parts which can be scabbed off most any junkyard rig. Having a wiring harness will be helpful, but you can also get the connectors with your sensors and build your own.

Here's where I would start: http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/micro...ness-p-509.html
For $369 you get a complete engine management system WITH an 8' harness. Solder the sensor connectors on and a few other connections and you are hooked up. This is a perfect setup because it is designed to run 2 low-z injectors like come in a throttle body.

Personally I would start with fuel only and not try and control timing right out of the gate. You can use your standard distributor, and let it control timing for now. When and if you are ever ready to let MS do it, then you can lock it out at a later day. You should never need a cam/crank sensor unless you plan on running sequential; the distributor will do just fine. If you choose to do full timing control, you will need a 7 pin GM HEI module.

Definitely have the o2 bung installed first. For $105 I would use this: http://www.14point7.com/products/spartan-lambda-sensor for Wideband o2. It's a down and dirty no-frills lambda sensor. You will need one if you ever plan on getting it fully tuned in. Add his $50 gauge and you can watch it on the fly after it's tuned without your laptop.

Regarding the fuel pump, you will need a return line. There's no way to run it returnless with TBI. I would get an inline Walbro, like the GSL392. http://www.amazon.com/Walbro-GSL-392-In-Line-Pressure-Installation/dp/B0051UH656
Some older Ford trucks had an inline pump, so that's a possible junkyard shopping item too. The throttle body has a regulator built in, and it runs at 14PSI. The pump won't care what pressure it runs since it's regulated. Any excess fuel dumps back to the tank. An 88 Ramcharger TBI uses the same pump as a 92 MPI which runs at 43PSI. Here's another option for fuel return: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-65...1wKPRoCBu7w_wcB


You should be able to get it running for under $700 with some creative parts shopping and junkyard hopping. Hope that helps answer some of your questions!
Posted By: denfireguy

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/23/14 07:25 AM

Quote:

There are several different ways to get it done. Having done one conversion, I'll give you my opinion on how to do it on the cheap.

First, if you are going to salvage a stock LA TBI setup, get one from a 360. Bigger throttle body and more power potential. They were never set up for power at all, so you need every advantage you can get. Next I wouldn't worry about sensors on the Dodge, for MS you are better to use the GM parts which can be scabbed off most any junkyard rig. Having a wiring harness will be helpful, but you can also get the connectors with your sensors and build your own.

Here's where I would start: http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/micro...ness-p-509.html
For $369 you get a complete engine management system WITH an 8' harness. Solder the sensor connectors on and a few other connections and you are hooked up. This is a perfect setup because it is designed to run 2 low-z injectors like come in a throttle body.

Personally I would start with fuel only and not try and control timing right out of the gate. You can use your standard distributor, and let it control timing for now. When and if you are ever ready to let MS do it, then you can lock it out at a later day. You should never need a cam/crank sensor unless you plan on running sequential; the distributor will do just fine. If you choose to do full timing control, you will need a 7 pin GM HEI module.

Definitely have the o2 bung installed first. For $105 I would use this: http://www.14point7.com/products/spartan-lambda-sensor for Wideband o2. It's a down and dirty no-frills lambda sensor. You will need one if you ever plan on getting it fully tuned in. Add his $50 gauge and you can watch it on the fly after it's tuned without your laptop.

Regarding the fuel pump, you will need a return line. There's no way to run it returnless with TBI. I would get an inline Walbro, like the GSL392. http://www.amazon.com/Walbro-GSL-392-In-Line-Pressure-Installation/dp/B0051UH656
Some older Ford trucks had an inline pump, so that's a possible junkyard shopping item too. The throttle body has a regulator built in, and it runs at 14PSI. The pump won't care what pressure it runs since it's regulated. Any excess fuel dumps back to the tank. An 88 Ramcharger TBI uses the same pump as a 92 MPI which runs at 43PSI. Here's another option for fuel return: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-65...1wKPRoCBu7w_wcB


You should be able to get it running for under $700 with some creative parts shopping and junkyard hopping. Hope that helps answer some of your questions!


I am going to be doing about the same thing as Matt. Only difference is using the Fast EFI throttle body (pricey at 800 bucks) on my current Edelbrock intake replacing the 1406 carb. When I do get around to doing timing, put in one of the dreaded Lean Burn distributors since it has no mechanical timing advance. Then use the MegaSquirt to do the timing and fuel.
I already get around 19 to 21 mpg on the Cuda if I keep the foot out. I do not expect to gain anything there but have a closed loop system that does not have to be tuned up four times a year.
Craig
Posted By: plazomat

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/23/14 03:39 PM

I am sure that the microsquirt will not drive Mopar TBI injectors directly or not last very long doing it. Mopar low impedance is much lower than the gm stuff you can use the resistors but they pose there own problems.

If you wanna go megasquirt and TBI then the older v3.57 may be your best bet for not much more$.
Posted By: GetAwayDriver

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/23/14 05:01 PM

I bought a used Projection kit on Ebay 5+ years ago for around $300. It was my second go-around with the Projection system.

Here are my pros/cons:

You can install this in one day. Slightly more complicated than swaping from points to Mopar electronic ignition. Great way to get your feet wet with EFI. Inexpensive. No 02 sensor required. Easy to tune. Twist key-and-go. Same TB/Injectors as pre-Magnum trucks. Looks stock. Use existing vent lines as fuel returns.

No measurable improvement in power/mileage over well-tuned carb. Questionable Holley quality-control. No O2 sensor.

That said, I don't even know if you can find these kits anymore. It's 90s tech but then again, our cars are 70s tech. The only reason I installed it was so I could use a remote car starter. (It was fun firing this thing up in a parking lot and freaking people out.) I drove it for a couple years and sold it with the system still intact. Here are a few pics:



Inline-pump:



Air Cleaner lid from an 80's EFI Imperial:



I put the tuning box (and remote starter wiring) in the C-body's super-awesome center mounted glove box. (Yes the car had orange shag carpet):



Posted By: feets

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/23/14 05:07 PM

Herk, I've heard of a guys using the 454 TBI systems due to the larger bore and injectors.

Have you looked into the pros/cons of that setup?
Posted By: herkamer

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/23/14 06:13 PM

Quote:

I am sure that the microsquirt will not drive Mopar TBI injectors directly or not last very long doing it. Mopar low impedance is much lower than the gm stuff you can use the resistors but they pose there own problems.

If you wanna go megasquirt and TBI then the older v3.57 may be your best bet for not much more$.




Microsquirt will hold up just fine. Mopar and GM used many of the same TBI injectors over the years. From the DIYautotune page I posted:

Quote:

1.The fuel injector drives will max out at 5 amps each, enough to drive one low-impedance (or 4 high-impedance) injector per bank.




That being said, I prefer not to mess with the PWM tuning. I started out that way, and ended up going with this: http://www.jbperf.com/p&h_board/
Like the old Ronco infrared oven, "set it and forget it". You would be over $500 for an assembled v3.57 MS2 and the matching harness. Maybe that's not a budget buster, but I'm trying to get it as down and dirty as possible. Building the board yourself is an option, but then you are into the cost of the stim as well.


Quote:

Herk, I've heard of a guys using the 454 TBI systems due to the larger bore and injectors.




I forgot to put this in my last post. This is exactly what I have on mine. Holley built the 670CFM throttle body that will support around 275HP on the early 90's Chevy 454 trucks. They adapted it to a square bore manifold, added a dumb computer with 2 fuel maps and called it Pro-Jection. I found a used Pro-Jection on Craigslist for $200, minus the fuel pump. Since I'm using the V3 board, it helped to have a donor harness to start with. My body style had a model with the later in-tank pump so that was an easy swap. I probably don't have even $700 into my conversion including the $189 Innovate LC-1 Wideband. A bigger motor would definitely benefit from the later Pro-Jection 4 throttle bodies, but then you also would have to go with the P&H board to drive those 4 injectors. This setup is plenty even for a slightly worked over 360.
Posted By: bbtrux

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/24/14 03:17 AM

Why would you not simply install a magnum? Cheapest,easiest.only thing you may need is the aftermarket lower profile intake for hood clearance.why try an expensive long winded hodgepodge of other crap?
Posted By: RodStRace

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/24/14 03:41 AM

I got a $900 '89 van out in the driveway.
318 TBI. It's cheap, rusty and ugly.
But it runs so good I keep fixing stuff when it needs it and keep it around.
I bet you can find a similar one near you, make sure it's running right and swap out all the necessary stuff, then part out/scrap the rest.
CL seems to be jammed right now, or I'd find an example or two.
The big hassle will be the tank/pump, lines and finding a comfy spot for the computer. The intake/TBI/dist (or whole engine - swap pans) will swap out easily.
IF you go multiport magnum, make sure to get a pre-96 so you are only dealing with OBD, not OBD II.
Posted By: herkamer

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/24/14 04:11 AM

Quote:

Why would you not simply install a magnum? Cheapest,easiest.only thing you may need is the aftermarket lower profile intake for hood clearance.why try an expensive long winded hodgepodge of other crap?




Because we like to take chicken crap and turn it into chicken soup...

He asked how to do it on a budget without changing to Magnum. That has it's own issues, such as trying to hack in a crank sensor, new flexplate and torque converter. Beside the point; even if he goes Megasquirt he could change to Magnum heads and intake, run it in batch mode with only a top end and small wiring change. We are cheap, that is the cheapest way. Been there and done it.
Posted By: dogdays

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/24/14 06:39 PM

It's a nearly stock 318. No need to get fancy.

First of all I have to ask, why do you say switching to Mag is cost-prohibitive? I have seen mag heads off running engines, but with the famous cracks, that were advertised at $100 for the pair.

Second, go directly to GM for the TBI that was standard from 1988 to 1995. The throttle body for the 305 and 350 were the same, only the injectors were different. That throttle body is good for 300hp. The 454 throttle body is larger and for that reason they are more expensive.
The GM system has been widely used and there's all kinds of support online. Howell sells a kit using this system.

Best of all, the parts are nearly free in your local recycling yard.

R.
Posted By: DUFFMAN

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/24/14 11:08 PM

Quote:

Why would you not simply install a magnum? Cheapest,easiest.only thing you may need is the aftermarket lower profile intake for hood clearance.why try an expensive long winded hodgepodge of other crap?




First of, a complete engine replacement would be a budget build, second, the 318 I have in the car only has about 2000-3000 miles on the rebuild so it would be a waste to just toss it and rebuild a Magnum in it's place.

I've thought about a Magnum intake for the MPI, but that would require head replacement which adds cost, along with a whole host of other expenses.

The challenge is to see how inexpensively it can be done.
Posted By: shanker

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/24/14 11:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Why would you not simply install a magnum? Cheapest,easiest.only thing you may need is the aftermarket lower profile intake for hood clearance.why try an expensive long winded hodgepodge of other crap?




First of, a complete engine replacement would be a budget build, second, the 318 I have in the car only has about 2000-3000 miles on the rebuild so it would be a waste to just toss it and rebuild a Magnum in it's place.

I've thought about a Magnum intake for the MPI, but that would require head replacement which adds cost, along with a whole host of other expenses.

The challenge is to see how inexpensively it can be done.




years ago there was a group of guys here who were renting/forwarding on a jig to allow installing magnum intakes on LA heads.. not sure what happened to it.
Posted By: plazomat

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/25/14 04:01 AM

Duffman,

Take a look at Speeduino..you can't be in that big a hurry.

I bought a $100 running chevy 350 TBI motor. It supplied all the sensors, HEI components, wiring harness, Throttle body and ECM.

My Arduino Mega 2560 was less than $30 ebay.

Ford pickup external fuel pump was $50 ebay.

Return style sender for 69B tank was $50 rock auto.

Mods to ECM were free - cause I can read a schematic and solder. Tuner studio for tuning - free unless you want Autotune feature then its like $60...and it will do Megasquirt, Rusefi, DIYEFI as well.

$310 so far...but a lot of time invested...but its all open source, no closed commercial code or tunes - and really easy to mod software.

I am going to document the whole install once it starts hopefully next spring.
Posted By: Fury Fan

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/25/14 05:10 AM

You have a good plan, keep researching. The GM TBI is on my list of favorite low-buck JY retrofit pieces.

The GM TBI is far and away the best choice as far as parts, tweakability, and internet info availability. The Dodge one, from most everythign I've read, generally works well while providing lackluster performance and MPG. The aftermarket EFI ECUs overwhelmingly favor GM sensors, too. Many aftermarket ECUs can re-cal to other sensors, but hey, that's one more detail you'd have to remember to do.

There are adapter plates out there to put a GM TB on either an open-plenum square or spreadbore manifold (where it mounts rearward); will not fit on a 2V as the TB bores are too far apart. Small TB is like 1 11/16" bores, 454 is 2". Look at adapters by Trans-Dapt. Either TB is sufficient for a mild 318.

On 454 TBs there is an early style and a late style. Early has larger injectors @ like 12-14 psi, later one has 'std' injectors running at 30psi. Later one reportedly has improvemtns in the TB for better idle, but I don't remember details. You can tell them apart by looking at the air passages in the bottom.

Teh FPR (fuel pressure regulator) is easily tweakable to be adjustable, or you can gut it and mount an aftermarket one in your return line. I have read that some guys get better MPG by running 4.3 injectors at higher pressure to get teh required flow. Be aware that doubling pressure does not double flow - there is a formula you will need to find to calculate (there's a square root involved).

Some GM TB vehicles have hard metal fuel lines, some are braided hose. I had good luck finding braided and having a hyd-hose shop put JIC fittings on the end (that's AN to you hotrodders, a 37° flare).

Teh GM TBI fits a 5 1/8" aircleaner, same as an Eddy/AVS/Thermoquad. So that helps (if you have an aircleaner like that, I guess).

I have *a bunch* of GM TBI parts in a tote in the basement (probably 6-8 TBs in there and a bunch of odds-ends) so send me a PM if you want some cheap stuff. Although getting somethign 'fresh' at a JY might suit you better.

Attached picture 8341179-DSC00977-1000.jpg
Posted By: dogdays

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/25/14 06:21 PM

A stock or near stock 318 does NOT need a 454 TBI. Period.

I could buy a brand new Rochester TBI unit for a 350 on the 'bay for $40.00 today.

I like'em because they're simple, hardly anything to screw up compared to a carburetor.

R.
Posted By: herkamer

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/25/14 06:30 PM

Good info about stock GM TBI parts:
http://www.dynamicefi.com/TBI_Fueling.php

True, a 318 would never need a 454 TB but if you have access at the right price, there is no reason not to use it. I'd rather have the capability to grow rather than be limited. This isn't carburation, you can command the same amount of fuel needed whether it has a 60 or 85lb/hr injector. In this case, bigger doesn't hurt anything at all.
Posted By: plazomat

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/26/14 02:29 AM

Can you post that auction? I would love another..
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/26/14 01:18 PM

Been keeping an eye on this thread as I am a big fan of EFI. Been considering some form of fuel injection on my 360 Duster and a setup with GM 454 throttle body intrigues me just enough that I might look into it.

The motor is healthier than stock and the 454 TBI setup just might fit the bill.
Posted By: DUFFMAN

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/26/14 06:01 PM

I guess I need to hit a junkyard and see what I can find. Sounds like a GM Throttle body might be the way to go.
Posted By: herkamer

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/27/14 03:45 AM

Definitely keep an eye out on Craigslist for used Pro-jection units. I see them for $2-300 on occasion. It's a great basic start once you ditch the terrible computer and replace with MS.
Posted By: DUFFMAN

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/27/14 04:30 AM

When it comes to Holley Pro-jection do you have any insight on the different system? What is the difference between 1d, 2d, 3d, etc. What should I be looking for?
Posted By: herkamer

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/27/14 05:31 AM

It won't matter much, especially if you are just using it for parts and wiring. All the 2 barrel units are rated at 670CFM, and used the 454 throttle body with a square bore adapter on the bottom. They all use 85lb/hr injectors and theoretically should support 275HP. More fuel pressure would up that some. The 2D was the second generation computer, and digital. Any of the Pro-jection 4 units have 4 injectors and higher CFM, and would require the use of either resistors or the peak & hold board I mentioned earlier. None of the MS can drive 4 of those low impedance injectors without mods. They can support substantially more HP with double the fuel delivery capabilities. 90-93 Chevy 454 trucks are also good candidates for parts removal.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/27/14 05:45 AM

Is the mopar port injection sb m1 intake still on the market?

Are the 670 cfm tbis rated at 2bbl 3.0 inches of vacuum or the 4bbl 1.5?
Posted By: plazomat

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/27/14 06:00 AM

It will matter - the early analog units did not come with a IAC valve and you could not upgrade to a O2 closed loop system.

PLAZ
Posted By: herkamer

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/27/14 06:13 AM

I don't know how they rate them, that's Holley's advertised CFM.

Using one for parts only will not matter much . I have a fast idle solenoid on mine for warm up. I don't need an IAC, nor do I have the 2 extra outputs to run it since I am using those for overdrive and lockup. We aren't talking about running it with Holley computer, that goes directly into the trash and replaced with a Megasquirt. That is MY suggestion to have a fully controllable EFI system on the cheap. Again I have done this, have the running truck to prove it.
Posted By: rory73

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/27/14 10:30 AM

I'm running the Holley Pro-Jection 4Di on my 440, what's wrong with the original computer? The software is a bit naff, got hold of a copy of "autochart" instead. Also converted the Pro-Jection's injectors to newer style Delphi ones. Not cheap though!
Posted By: herkamer

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/27/14 06:40 PM

The 4Di is tunable via laptop, and not exactly what I'm suggesting to hunt down as a donor unit. It's certainly a much better offer than the 2 or 2d, but it still lacks somewhat in flexibility of what even a basic Megasquirt can provide. The early 2 barrel ones only had 2 base maps for every possible engine combination, with fine trim with pots on the front. Surprisingly enough they would run some vehicles ok, but don't think they ever ran reliably for long. That's why they can be had for cheap used. It was a great starting point for me to jump into EFI on the cheap. The biggest expense was the Megasquirt itself, and I got mine before they offered the Micro. It's pretty cool to build something from a box of parts and have it run your vehicle as good as any factory computer.
Posted By: Fury Fan

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/28/14 06:13 PM

We talked a little about the 454 being unnecessary for a 318, but the 360 TB has 2" bores, same as the 454, and isn't the 318 using the same TB???

454TBs cost a lot more on ebay (as of a few years ago, anyway) but an extra $50-75 now might be worthwhile for the future.

Herkamer -
Why are you suggesting to get a used Holley setup and then throw most of it away, and buy an MS? (not meant to sound combative). Explain that a little more, plz.

Seems to me that buying that for 2-$300 will get you a Holley TB with Holley-specific injectors, right? Why not just get a GM TB and pigtails at a JY (for far less), you can mix-match parts and pick what looks like the freshest parts, and then splice into the MS/harness that you'll be buying anyway? And GM sensors/parts are at every parts store, you can tweak the GM TB later if you want, Holley not so much on both aspects.


IMHO the only reason to buy a Holley system is to get the 4-inj TB (didn't know MS couldn't run that without mods), but even then I'd say that a bored 454 TB with early injectors and later/or tweaked regulator for more fuel pressure could do just as well and probably be more reliable.
Posted By: Fury Fan

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/28/14 06:20 PM

Just discovered this site, might be some good info here.


http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/archive/index.php
Posted By: herkamer

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/28/14 06:55 PM

Bore size with this only refers to possible air flow capability of the throttle body. The computer will only command the needed fuel, so having a throttle body that flows 1000CFM vs 450 makes no difference to the engine until you exceed that capability. Overrating here is not a detriment. As long as you know the flow rate of the injector, you can determine how much fuel each pulse will throw. Bigger injectors use smaller pulsewidth.

My reason for suggesting a used Pro-Jection is that you can get a kit; throttle body, wiring, fuel pump. One stop shopping from someone who has given up on the Holley computer. You can save $30 by buying the Microsquirt with the 30" harness and splicing it the Holley harness.

Also, Holley was the OEM for both GM and Chrysler, so the injectors are all Holley. There is nothing specific to the OEM vs aftermarket units. They are all low impedance, around 1-2 ohms.

The early 454 unit will support around 275HP at base fuel pressure. I would say that's pretty accurate, the one on my 360 is probably close to the limit. I also didn't build it for all out performance, it's a 1 ton truck.
Posted By: DUFFMAN

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/29/14 05:09 AM

Just a thought. I've been looking at CL and I can find whole, running Dodge trucks for $500-700. Sure they're 2wd, and pretty much rusted to dirt, but they run good. So, I'm thinking I could buy one, swap the whole system and junk the rest. My net cost would only be $200-400. Then I'd just install the factory system including the ECU. Once I get it running then swap out the ECU for something tune-able, like a Megasquirt. Then again maybe it will run fine off the stock computer since it's a near stock 318. I would think it would be a cheap easy way to baseline a system.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying?
Posted By: herkamer

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/29/14 06:18 AM

That would definitely be one way to do it. They are very lackluster in performance though. My 88 Ramcharger barely has enough power to keep it going 65 on the highway. Pretty sure it has had the snot ran out of it prior to my ownership. It pushes snow ok, and that is all it needs to do. Being at 5300' doesn't help my cause either. Figuring your mill is pretty much stock, that might not be a bad way to go as a starting point.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/29/14 03:33 PM

There was a web page out there with a listing of all the factory GM TBI injector flow rates. If memory serves I did the math one time and even 3 of the stock 350tbi's would be hard pressed to provide enough fuel and air flow for a 550hp 440. If you decide to run one of these, be sure you know it's limits. If I was doing a stock LA 318 or a slant 6 conversion to efi, I would consider one. Same for any kind of low revving tow rig. A mild small block with a dual quad intake and two tbi's might do okay.

FWIW, I bought a MS-2 years ago and haven't gotten the car back together yet to put it on. But if will do everything you would need it to, including low impedance injectors.

Quote:

Just a thought. I've been looking at CL and I can find whole, running Dodge trucks for $500-700. Sure they're 2wd, and pretty much rusted to dirt, but they run good. So, I'm thinking I could buy one, swap the whole system and junk the rest. My net cost would only be $200-400. Then I'd just install the factory system including the ECU. Once I get it running then swap out the ECU for something tune-able, like a Megasquirt. Then again maybe it will run fine off the stock computer since it's a near stock 318. I would think it would be a cheap easy way to baseline a system.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying?




I swapped a 5.2 magnum out of a 99 dakota into my carbed 88 jeep wrangler. After I put the engine in I started dissecting the dakota harness. After discovering the OBD-2 harnesses are a rats nest of wiring and the OBD-2 computers don't like to run outside the vehicle without a recalibration I went to the junkyard and found a harness in a 95 5.2L jeep grand cherokee. The OBD-1 magnum harnesses (1992-1995 only) are much simpler to dissect and after I was done the engine harness only needed two or three wires to be tied into my carbed harness. The rest was self contained. I ended up swapping in a computer out of a manual trans ram(my jeep is a manual trans anyway), as the donor cherokee had an auto trans ecu with security that refused to run. Since I don't have any plans to modify the engine, I have no need for a tunable aftermarket ECU or an OBD-2 that can be recalibrated. Stock is just fine seeing it's a 100hp upgrade from my old engine. The best part is now that it's in there it runs great, just like any stock 5.2 ram. Fires up at the flick of a key, required me to invest zero tuning time. I paid 300 bucks for the dakota engine that I got to hear running before he pulled it. Then another 60 or so between the junkyard engine harness and the ebay ECU. I did have to snag the engine sensors off the 95 5.2 in the junkyard as the connectors on the 99 engine had changed. However the sensors were plug and play.
Posted By: DUFFMAN

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/29/14 06:58 PM

The 318 I'm looking to run this on is a 1972 LA with shaved J heads, thin head gaskets, (can't remember the crush thickness, but I calculated about 9:1 compression ratio when I did it) and a crane cam with similar lift and duration to a stock 340 cam. (I'd have to find the card for specifics). Right now I have a stock 1972 340 intake and thermoquad on it. It runs good for the most part, but I've always had problems getting the choke to operate correctly, thus it can be hard to start when it's cold.

For the most part I don't need to do it, this is more of a want, mainly to see if I can pull off setting up an EFI system for a little more than the cost of a decent carb and intake.

A lot of great information in this thread. I didn't know some many people here have done EFI conversions. I've done one in the past and it was retro-fitting a stock system to an older car. This was way before aftermarket electrical was available.
Posted By: Fury Fan

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/29/14 07:48 PM

Quote:

FWIW, I bought a MS-2 years ago and haven't gotten the car back together yet to put it on. But if will do everything you would need it to, including low impedance injectors.



I remember you having one of them on the shelf - glad to hear you haven't installed yours yet. MAkes me feel better about not having installed mine either.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/29/14 10:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

FWIW, I bought a MS-2 years ago and haven't gotten the car back together yet to put it on. But if will do everything you would need it to, including low impedance injectors.



I remember you having one of them on the shelf - glad to hear you haven't installed yours yet. MAkes me feel better about not having installed mine either.




Lol ya. I pulled the engine out after the 727 let go. Then I found a rusted cowl drain to fix. Now I have the car in primer and the machine work done on the engine. Then somewhere in between I got a boat, a truck, a jeep, a wife, a house and a baby. Where does the time go?
Posted By: larrymopar360

Re: Budget small block EFI - 11/30/14 12:36 AM

Latest edition of Mopar Muscle has a Tech article on "Dummy-Proof EFI" from Quick Fuel Technology. I haven't had a chance to read it but am very interested. It is written they are self-tuning and can support up to 525hp, and aren't super expensive. Of course, "expensive" doesn't have the same meaning to all of us, but might be worth a read to anyone considering EFI.
Posted By: plazomat

Re: Budget small block EFI - 12/11/14 07:23 AM

Just in case yall missed it please see the speedunio forums at...

http://speeduino.com/forum/

I think this will become the new defacto standard for shade tree DIY EFI - specially when TBI setups are ironed out..we could use some testers..

Dirt cheap and very pick and pull friendly..

PLAZ
Posted By: plazomat

Re: Budget small block EFI - 02/27/15 02:36 AM

Just another bump and shameless plug - I have sample blank PCBs available free for anyone willing to solder one up and test it out...the best case would be someone who is already running some DIY EFI stuff and can try a plug and play...

PLAZ

http://speeduino.com/forum/
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