It didn't seem right to hijack PossessedDuster's heating post so I wanted to start a new one to report my problem/findings. My 440 Cuda is running warm at idle and I am sure it would overheat if I let it idle for more than 10 minutes. The car stays cool if I am moving even at lower speeds but when I am at idle after some town driving the temp will continue to creep up until I intervene.

My laser temperature gauge indicates a 5-10 degree difference between the upper and lower hose at warm idle. As a test, I plan to install a solid fan this afternoon with a spacer to replace my current Viscous clutch fan. It appears to me that the fan is not moving enough air at idle. I will post the results as soon as the parts arrive and I can test.

I have E-Body non-rallye gauges so only a needle and no numbers. The needle sits at 40-50% during “normal” drive operation. In bumper-to-bumper traffic or a prolonged (+5 minutes) idle on a warm day the needle will move up to 60-70% until I get moving again. I think it would overheat if I left it at idle since the needle never stops creeping up.

440ci – Bored .30 – 6-Pack Rods forged crank
CompCams Cam:
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 218 int./224 exh.
Advertised Duration: 262 int./270 exh.
Lobe Separation (degrees):110
Probe Pistons, Forged, Flat
452 Ported Heads (Mopar template) backcut valves

Stock repro 26” Radiator – 3 Row/Tube– Year One
Stock Repro Shroud
Summit Racing High-Volume Iron Water Pump
Added 1973 E-Body Radiator Overflow Bottle
180 Degree thermostat
16PSI Radiator Cap
Green 50/50 Radiator Mix
Mopar Performance 18” Viscous Fan Package with Standard Duty Clutch
Fan roughly 1/2 into shroud

TEMP TEST WITH VISCOUS FAN AND STANDARD CLUTCH
--------------------------------------------------

Run car at Stop-and-Go then idle to get temperature up. Temperature will continue to rise unless I intervene.

Outside Temperature 85F
Radiator Center (taken from Front) 154F
Top Hose 200-205F
Bottom Hose 190-200F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Driver’s head (front) 220F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Passenger head (front) 230F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Gauge position 55-60% (Needle no numbers)

Radiator, thermostat, hoses, Fan, clutch, fluid, engine work, etc is 6 months old.

I will post my numbers with the solid fan sometime tonight or tomorrow.

I think a solid (& properly spaced) fan will put a smile on your face

so what's your timing at? what type of carb and jetting? and where is the temp gauge when it overheats? do you have a hood/rad support seal on your car?
I had similar issues at first with my 440 cuda with slightly larger cam then yours and a 22" rad until I got the tune in better and put the seal on so the air draws more through the rad.

BTW I bought a aluminum recovery tank and mounted it up inside the front fender behind the left headlight. it's invisible and works great.

add a bottle of water wetter. will help you some, and it's good for the system anyways.

hard to tell from the angle, but it looks like the fan is outside of the shroud. this will cost you big time, for airflow at idle.

Agree it sounds like a airflow limitation at idle. Suggest you get an aftermarket temp gauge, even if only as a diagnostic to see how bad it is or isn't. Up to 205 deg or so is good. Up to 220 OK and 230 or higher cause for concern. It probably won't boil until 250+ degrees with anti freeze and a pressure cap. I don't worry about creeping at idle if it doesn't exceed above limits as long as it cools on a roll.

In general, the MP fan kit used the smallest fan and loosest clutch to cool with minimum HP loss. If that's not enough cooling, a tighter clutch and/or bigger fan could help. I have had good luck with Hayden clutches. Standard duty for the 5 blade fan and heavy duty for a bigger fan (eg 7 blade from a late 70's Cordoba).

I'm not a fan of fixed fans (pun intended). At speed it sounds like you are driving an airboat. Lots of noise.

I think its worth checking how serious your problem is first and trying to match up a more capable thermal clutch and fan if needed.

FWIW mine does creep up ('70E, BB, AC, big radiator, MP thermal fan kit) but has never overheated... including summertime rush hour around Las Vegas. If desert rush hour was the norm, I would probably install my backup 7 blade fan and heavy duty Hayden clutch but in my application, no need.

Stinger, Edelbrock 1413 800cfm : .113 Primary, .101 Secondary Metering Jets and .075 x .047 Metering Rods. I used an AF meter and am hitting in the green at cruise (13.5-14.5) warm idle sits around 13.4-14.1 and low-vacuum/high-throttle gets upwards of 15-16. With the 800, I didn't do any tweaking.(My 750 was a different story as I had to change it all to get the off-idle stumble corrected)

Initial timing was set with vacuum and the engine was happiest around 14-15 if I remember correctly. I do not remember total. Having said that, I don't think any amount of carb tuning or timing changes will affect the difference of the water temperature coming into then out of the radiator. The upper and lower hose should be WAY different than 5 degrees. For now, I am going to focus on the poor cooling performance.

As for the overheating, I have not let it get out of control. In my driveway tests, the hoses reached about 210 and the engine outside temp got up to 220 but only after driving followed by an extended idle in my driveway. All I have to do is get the car moving and it cools back off. This car just runs a little warm at extended idles (5+ minutes after driving). My E-Body has a temp needle and no number gauge so I am using a laser temperature device outside the car to monitor the cooling. This is how I noticed the ineffectiveness of my fan at idle.

I just installed the solid fan and the spacer and everything is buttoned up and ready to test tomorrow. I am expecting to see a greater difference between the upper and lower hoses after I get the car warmed up and the stat opens.

I will post updates and numbers.

Golden-Arm, thanks for the post. The fan is inside the shroud about half-way. I have read that many prefer it a little deeper and I could get a small spacer to push it in a little more.

I have a solid fan in now and I will drive it and retest it tomorrow sometime to see if it makes a difference. With the 2" spacer, the solid fan is nearly completely inside the shroud opening. About 1/2" of fan hangs out the back.

You should see about 20* difference between top and bottom hoses.

timing sounds good,may be as simple as a bad or loose fan clutch.
this http://www.4secondsflat.com/Spark_plug_reading.html may be worth a look. you didn't mention if you had a hood seal,may help directing more air in the rad. it dose sound like an air movement issue.I still have a slight issue on cruise days when traffic is still and temps are up,considering a elec pusher for that.I've noticed a slightly higher idle speed helps.in gear I'm at 700 but in neutral up close to 1000 and it keeps that gauge from bumping up to high. I run a Hayden clutch,hope this helps.

thanks for posting your findings, I have a similar heating issue at idle unless I put it in neutral & run it up to 1000 rpms to increase air flow which cools it back down ok.

i'm sure it seems like the fan is sitting inside the shroud (yellow arrow looks like it, up top) but it clearly isn't, at the red arrow. it should be inside the shroud, all the way around. the gap is pretty big, at the red arrow, making it look like it's a half inch (or a bit more) outside of the shroud, at the side.

(the shroud is wider up top, to cover the fan, and protect you from getting whacked by the blades.)

I would go with an elec. pusher fan in front of the radiator before trying a solid fan. Unless the solid fan is just for testing ofcourse.

How's your ignition vacuum advance hooked up? Ported on the carb or full vacuum on the intake?
Full vacuum advance at idle lets the engine run cooler at idle.

Steve my 63 Sport Fury kinda did the same thing as its a 440/493 stroker and when sitting at redlites for a few minutes it would creep up to 200 and then if I sat and idled long enough an hot days it would even creep to 205 which I did not like so after setting everything to proper specs I added this electric pusher fan you can just see in front of the rad and it worked real good. Now if it creeps up at a I lite I turn the electric fan on as I have it on a toggle switch and it brings right down and keeps it around 180. On super hot and humid days it will still hold 185 to 190. It really helped alot at a long idle. Ron

GoldenArm, you know I don't think I noticed the fact that the shroud extends further on top. If the fixed fan works, this winter I will spend some time with the Hayden catalog and see if there is a heavy duty fan clutch that is about an inch longer. That may put me inside the shroud where I need to be and give me more push at idle.

The solid fan I installed is inside the shroud much farther so I look forward to testing it today when I get a chance.

383 and BigBlock, an electric push fan would certainly solve a few issues at idle and even every shutdown. I even have some hidden relays up front I could use for power.

I drive this car 2-3 times a day and if I can get a 15-20 degree difference between the upper and lower hose even at idle then I think I can make this work.

I really appreciate the photos. You've given me some great ideas. Hopefully these small fan tweaks I am doing will be enough. I'm already pretty close I think.

OK, so I have the results of a 6-Blade 2 1/2" pitch fan with a standard duty clutch compared to a 6-Blade solid fan with a 2" pitch. It has eliminated the risk of overheating and cooled the engine down by 14-20 degrees.

At idle, the solid fan reduced water temperature by 11-17 degrees (into and out of the radiator) while the standard clutch fan only reduced water temperature by 5-10 degrees. In this experiment, there were three variables; fan pitch, shroud depth and clutch vs. solid.

My personal opinion is the RIGHT fan (Mopar 7 Blade) with a Heavy Duty (Hayden 2747) or Severe Duty (2797) clutch would bring this car back to stock and eliminate my cooling issue. Those clutches would put my fan deeper in the shroud and lock up better at all heat ranges.

6-Blade Clutch Fan - 1/2 inserted into Shroud (I thought I had a viscous fan but I was wrong)

Outside Temperature 85F
Radiator Center (taken from Front) 154F
Top Hose 200-205F
Bottom Hose 190-200F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Driver’s head (front) 220F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Passenger head (front) 230F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Gauge position 55-60% (Needle no numbers)

6-Blade Solid fan with spacer - nearly completely inside shroud

Outside Temperature 77F
Radiator Center (taken from Front) 142F
Top Hose 182-189F
Bottom Hose 165-178F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Driver’s head (front) 210F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Passenger head (front) 206F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Gauge position 50% (Needle no numbers)

In this second experiment I let the engine run much longer than with the clutch fan. The temperature of the block and hoses equalized and did not continue to increase as with the clutch fan.

The funny thing is now that I have done this the power steering feels different which makes no sense. Sometimes my imagination plays tricks with me.

Finally got the chance to install the parts I wanted and I am happy with the results. Now I just need a hot day for tougher testing.

This is a 440 E-Body 4-Speed and no air. The current setup is a Mopar 7 Blade fan with a Heavy Duty (Hayden 2747) clutch and a 1" spacer.

Outside Temperature 72F
Radiator Center (taken from Front) 127F
Top Hose 162F
Bottom Hose 138F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Driver’s head (front) 191F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Passenger head (front) 190F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Gauge position 60-70% with new Rallye Gauge

Here are the results with a 6-Blade Solid fan with spacer - nearly completely inside shroud

Outside Temperature 77F
Radiator Center (taken from Front) 142F
Top Hose 182-189F
Bottom Hose 165-178F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Driver’s head (front) 210F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Passenger head (front) 206F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Gauge position 50% (Needle no numbers with non-Rallye Gauge)

Here were the test results with a 6-Blade Fan with a Hayden Standard Duty Clutch and no spacer:

Outside Temperature 85F
Radiator Center (taken from Front) 154F
Top Hose 200-205F
Bottom Hose 190-200F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Driver’s head (front) 220F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Passenger head (front) 230F (+/- 5% margin due to difficult reading)
Gauge position 55-60% (Needle no numbers with non-Rallye Gauge)