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Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: Mopar Mitch] #1527537
04/22/14 01:33 PM
04/22/14 01:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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J

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Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
I agree with Mitch, go big.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: jcc] #1527538
04/22/14 01:59 PM
04/22/14 01:59 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis Offline
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Santa Fe Springs, CA
Quote:

I agree with Mitch, go big.




Unless you have a proper cage and significant reinforcement to support the chassis, I would stick with 1.06 or lower for A bodies and 1.10 or lower for the B and E's. Any more than that and significant torsional load is transferred to the chassis; you begin to pop spot welds and tear sheet metal.

Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: Dan@Hotchkis] #1527539
04/22/14 02:57 PM
04/22/14 02:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets Offline
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Irving, TX
Quote:

Unless you have a proper cage and significant reinforcement to support the chassis, I would stick with 1.06 or lower for A bodies and 1.10 or lower for the B and E's. Any more than that and significant torsional load is transferred to the chassis; you begin to pop spot welds and tear sheet metal.





That's where my money is.

You're dealing with more than 3,000 lbs of steel being thrashed over bangs and bumps and seeing all kinds of torsional loads. The bad part is that it's built of stamped sheet metal.

Beef up the suspension too far and it will be stiffer than the chassis it's hanging on.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: Dan@Hotchkis] #1527540
04/22/14 07:04 PM
04/22/14 07:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
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J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
Quote:

Quote:

I agree with Mitch, go big.




Unless you have a proper cage and significant reinforcement to support the chassis, I would stick with 1.06 or lower for A bodies and 1.10 or lower for the B and E's. Any more than that and significant torsional load is transferred to the chassis; you begin to pop spot welds and tear sheet metal.




That might be just a bit of hyperbole. IMO, every load or movement of the car transfers load to the chassis, and those loads in small enough amounts might take millions of cycles to eventaully fatigue sheet metal and welds. ANYTHING that increases those loads decreases the amount of cycles the chassis can accept before failures crop up. Therefore for 99.99% confidence in your chassis, never move your car. For those not inclined to just look at their car, using a heavier TB then a smaller one will shorten the time in use before sheet metal tears and spot welds to pop. The following are some things that also cause these unfavorable mentioned earlier out comes:
1. Higher tire pressures
2. Lower profile Tires
3. Stiffer Tire side walls
4. Increased cargo/passenger weight
5. Higher driving speed
6. Bigger potholes
7. Increased braking forces
8. Faster cornering speeds
9. greater driving mileages
10. Previously abused chassis

Pick your poison, there is no free ride.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: jcc] #1527541
04/22/14 07:54 PM
04/22/14 07:54 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis Offline
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Santa Fe Springs, CA
While what you listed are effects on the system, the impacts you suggest are implying that the suspension system is like a go kart and all things are the same, where in this case, they are not. We are discussing the lever arm of force that is being applied to the chassis under compression. If I were to solid mount the suspension system, it would cause the same issues and the force would be applied to the chassis instead of being absorbed by the suspension. By making the suspension too stiff for what it was engineered to withstand, you will accelerate the fatigue to a car that we all already know was not assembled to the highest of standards. And these failures aren't brand specific. Look at the fatigue issues that the Mustang guys have with their spring pockets. They figured it out quicker, and then even Mopar jumped on board with engine compartment bracing.

Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: Dan@Hotchkis] #1527542
04/22/14 09:23 PM
04/22/14 09:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,328
St. Louis, MO
mopardamo Offline
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mopardamo  Offline
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St. Louis, MO
Hello,

With a better handling car the force will go up when used as intended. The forces will also occur at a greater acceleration/rate due to the added stiffness of the suspension. This will increase the fatigue rate along with the higher forces of the improved handling.

Damon

Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: Dan@Hotchkis] #1527543
04/22/14 09:31 PM
04/22/14 09:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
brads70 Offline
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Ontario,Canada
Interesting... Dan , where does an e-body fail first ?

Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: brads70] #1527544
04/23/14 01:51 AM
04/23/14 01:51 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis Offline
super stock
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Santa Fe Springs, CA
In our experience, the three major fail points were:
-upper inner fender wells where they "attach" to the firewall
-Inner fender wells to shock tower
-Rear shock tower to frame horn

That was with 2 above average chassis'; about 30k street miles driven mostly in CA, AZ and NV; and probably 500 track miles and 2000ish autocross laps split between the two. Your results may vary.

Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: Dan@Hotchkis] #1527545
04/23/14 02:35 AM
04/23/14 02:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,432
NorCal
RylisPro Offline
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So how do you properly reinforce these failure points?
I am currently getting a cage welded in and would like to address it while its still in the early stages


73 `Cuda
Instagram: @rylispro
YouTube: RylisPro
www.rylispro.com
925-214-9192
Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: RylisPro] #1527546
04/23/14 03:38 AM
04/23/14 03:38 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis Offline
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Santa Fe Springs, CA
Quote:

So how do you properly reinforce these failure points?
I am currently getting a cage welded in and would like to address it while its still in the early stages





https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=1#Post8073886

Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: Dan@Hotchkis] #1527547
04/23/14 09:22 AM
04/23/14 09:22 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
brads70 Offline
super stock
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Ontario,Canada
Quote:

In our experience, the three major fail points were:
-upper inner fender wells where they "attach" to the firewall
-Inner fender wells to shock tower
-Rear shock tower to frame horn

That was with 2 above average chassis'; about 30k street miles driven mostly in CA, AZ and NV; and probably 500 track miles and 2000ish autocross laps split between the two. Your results may vary.




Thanks for sharing that! US cartool cowl brace should address the first two then?

Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: Dan@Hotchkis] #1527548
04/23/14 01:15 PM
04/23/14 01:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline
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Mopar Mitch  Offline
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I've owned my Chally since 1975, always been rust free (stored winters), bought it with 22K odometer; been autocrossing it since 1975; car went through major transformation in mid-80s, including progressive changes in suspension (TBs, leafs, bushings, shocks, etc) primarily for concentrated hi-level SCCA Solo II/autocross competition, as well as for some hi-speed road course events). Streetable, but mostly trailerd between mid 80s through mid 2000s. Odometer currently has ~78K (put ~5K miles between mid 80s~early 2000). Chassis/unibody has no cracks or weld breakage, no stress cracks, etc... I know every inch of the car. Best mod ever for improved suspension handling was progressing stiffer with the TBs... the 1.24 is simply the largest to fit within the factory hex openings.... and a 1.24 TB is still very reasonable to drive daily... other mods compliment the "package" to my car.... again, primarily intended, and following the SCCA class rules for "E/Street Prepared".... rules have since changed a little since my past heavy involvement up to early 2000s, so a few other selective mods could be done, including welding in SFCs (must attach to the front and rear frame rails, not the leaf spring point).

The original T/A-AAR race cars used something like 1.4 diameter TBs.... makes the 1.24 and smaller TBs really weak by comparison. I had the opportunity to talk "unibody stiffness" with some Chrysler engineers face-to-face in the early 80s.. they told me our Mopars (concentrating on my E-body) had the strongest unibody designs compared against any makes, and even the AMC Javelins were very strong. At the time I was considering the "SCCA-Solo allowed Bolt-In SFCs"... they told me unless they were welded in, not to worry or bother with them (and I still don't have any SFCs.. maybe/probably someday). Our unibodies can certainly be strengthened, but I've never experienced any unibody or weld cracking, despite extreme g-forces (soft/ultra-sticky compound tires, such as Hoosiers). The car is intended to be driven at autocross and road course events, and certainly avoiding bad roads, pot holes, etc when driven on the street/hwy... If I were concerned about the ride stiffness, I wouldn't drive it on the street/hwy... even with the 1.24 TBs in it now, as well as some friends of mine with A-bodies having 1.14 (even 1.18), driving on the street/hwy is just fine and compliments the handling for better personal enjoyment.

Big TBs aren't for everyone, but small TBs (1.0~1.6~1.10) only lend the question: "These aren't bad at all... what would larger TBs be like?" That's why I encourage at least mid-range TBs like ~1.12-1.18 for best moderate results (leaning towards street/hwy as a larger % of someone's driving)... and still other mods are needed to compliment (leafs, shocks, etc). Don't forget.. "the nut-behind-the-wheel" will make the biggest difference.


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: Dan@Hotchkis] #1527549
04/23/14 01:51 PM
04/23/14 01:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 186
B-Body Bull Offline
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Quote:

Quote:






Unless you have a proper cage and significant reinforcement to support the chassis, I would stick with 1.06 or lower for A bodies and 1.10 or lower for the B and E's. Any more than that and significant torsional load is transferred to the chassis; you begin to pop spot welds and tear sheet metal.



My Duster has broken these while using mopar 1.14 bars: k-member at control arm/torsion bar pivot, torsion bar cross member at torsion bar socket. A bodies are flimsy so get out the welder. Get some custom rate leafs to match large bars or it's Plow city. For me, I like the .99 bars addco front and rear sway bars, monroe shocks, and Hotchkiss 130lb leafs for driving my Duster. My stock suspension factory bars and leafs Duster with just low profile tires, front and rear sway bars and edelbrock shocks handled like a boat, when autocrossing in comparison.

Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: B-Body Bull] #1527550
04/26/14 01:50 AM
04/26/14 01:50 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
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J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
Boy, been on Moparts over ten years, and finally discover we should be picking our TB sizes based on possible spot weld failures. Who knew?


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: jcc] #1527551
04/26/14 11:15 AM
04/26/14 11:15 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis Offline
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Santa Fe Springs, CA
Quote:

Boy, been on Moparts over ten years, and finally discover we should be picking our TB sizes based on possible spot weld failures. Who knew?




Some people get a little bummed when they just spent 50k on a freshly restored car and their front frame horn and inner fenders detach on a track day. Who knew?

We try to minimize failures as much as possible. We'd feel a bit liable if someone's car came apart because of a recommendation we made. Are you willing to be liable for it? Both of the cars we ran heavy TB's on began to see massive amounts of torsional loads shifted from the suspension to the body, and failures ensued. Not all of the cars out there are as well maintained as Mitch's car; and I would argue that my Road Runner is in about as good of shape as his Challenger. We didn't have any catastrophic failures, but sections of the frame horns started to come apart. I made the repairs needed and stepped down on the bars to our new production units.

Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: Dan@Hotchkis] #1527552
04/27/14 01:32 AM
04/27/14 01:32 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 240
Plano, Texas
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Plano, Texas
Quote:

In our experience, the three major fail points were:
-upper inner fender wells where they "attach" to the firewall
-Inner fender wells to shock tower
-Rear shock tower to frame horn





Would the A-body then fail elsewhere? The shock towers on the A body appear to be a lot more stout and better attached to the frame rails. Any experience on the A body cars? My car has had some reinforcement and some additional welding, but nothing compared to the car you posted the link for that has a full cage being fabricated. The A-body has a lot of differences dimensionally, and has some design differences. Does it have more torsional rigidity than an E-body?


Michael 1968 Barracuda Notchback Coupe 440 EFI 6-pack, T56 Magnum 6-spd
Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: 68cuda440] #1527553
04/27/14 10:53 AM
04/27/14 10:53 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis Offline
super stock
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Santa Fe Springs, CA
Quote:


Would the A-body then fail elsewhere? The shock towers on the A body appear to be a lot more stout and better attached to the frame rails. Any experience on the A body cars? My car has had some reinforcement and some additional welding, but nothing compared to the car you posted the link for that has a full cage being fabricated. The A-body has a lot of differences dimensionally, and has some design differences. Does it have more torsional rigidity than an E-body?




An excellent question. I"m trying to recall, but the only thing I've personally noticed is about twice as many LCA pin hole failures on the K-Mmember. We are building 3 A-Bodies right now that should start hitting the streets in the next month or so. These will be the cars to watch.

Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: Dan@Hotchkis] #1527554
04/27/14 06:09 PM
04/27/14 06:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 463
Rescue CA.
joes68340s Offline
mopar
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Rescue CA.
I just purchased an AAR cuda that showed little to no rust only to find out that the inner frames have begun to rust in some locations. front drivers side at the rear K frame mount and outbored passenger side torsion bar spot. Im not worried about originality as I plan to drive the car and autox. Im bummed about the rust but repair there are many options now. Just glad I found it first before I through in bigger bars and such. I guess it gos to show these are old cars many people have handled them and you have to seriusly look them over and address the weakness of the car.

Re: A-body dailydriver 1" torsion bar upgrade [Re: joes68340s] #1527555
04/27/14 06:33 PM
04/27/14 06:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar Offline OP
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A-body frame rails appear to be weak even in factory stock state.

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