Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: 68KillerBee]
#1473181
07/24/13 11:56 AM
07/24/13 11:56 AM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 460 Oklahoma
VoodooCLD
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 460
Oklahoma
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Seems like the problem bounced around a bit, but in the old thread ph23vo mentions you might have the big rod. If your engine has the "six pack rods" which were much bigger than the LY rods you need to have a specific harmonic balancer, AS WELL as a specific flywheel. Even though it is a steel crank. With the six pack rods there isn't enough weight on the counter balance weights of the crank to offset the weight of the rods.
If you DO have the six pack rods, then AFTER you get the proper balancer (it will look assymetrical, with more weight on one side)you then need to have the whole rotating assembly (pistons, rods, crank, balancer, and flywheel) ALL BALANCED TOGETHER.
IF you DON'T have six pack rods, then you need to get a harmonic dampner and flyhweel that are completely symmetrical (no weights on one side) and it should still be balanced, although this time balanced without the dampner and flywheel.
Last edited by VoodooCLD; 07/24/13 11:58 AM.
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: VoodooCLD]
#1473182
07/24/13 12:06 PM
07/24/13 12:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,092 A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Seems like the problem bounced around a bit, but in the old thread ph23vo mentions you might have the big rod. If your engine has the "six pack rods" which were much bigger than the LY rods you need to have a specific harmonic balancer, AS WELL as a specific flywheel. Even though it is a steel crank. With the six pack rods there isn't enough weight on the counter balance weights of the crank to offset the weight of the rods.
If you DO have the six pack rods, then AFTER you get the proper balancer (it will look assymetrical, with more weight on one side)you then need to have the whole rotating assembly (pistons, rods, crank, balancer, and flywheel) ALL BALANCED TOGETHER.
IF you DON'T have six pack rods, then you need to get a harmonic dampner and flyhweel that are completely symmetrical (no weights on one side) and it should still be balanced, although this time balanced without the dampner and flywheel.
68 wouldn't have big rods but they could have been swapped in but you don't really need to have it external balance. I had a big rod/heavy TRW piston rod combo internal balanced , small amout of weight added back to the crank. I prefer internal balnce over external balance.
68 , when you get the flywheel off put up a picture of both side s please.
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: JohnRR]
#1473183
07/24/13 12:12 PM
07/24/13 12:12 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,166 CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
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On the loose bolt theories, I do know a guy who installed his 18 spline 833 with only one bolt holding it to the bellhousing. The others were stipped/didn't line up, so he figured he'd just let it fly. The car in question is a plum crazy '70 440 Six Pack 4 speed Super Track Pack Charger R/T, mind you, with a white interior (pretty car). Well he drove it around a few miles, proceeded to lay into it a bit, and around the time he tried to yank second he started to lose the shifter. Despite his best efforts to hold the tranny in the car with the pistol grip, he could not, and through the transmission tunnel it went! It doesn't really make a point regarding your problem, but a funny story that relates somewhat, and might make you feel a little better with a laugh.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: JohnRR]
#1473184
07/24/13 12:13 PM
07/24/13 12:13 PM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 460 Oklahoma
VoodooCLD
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 460
Oklahoma
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Quote:
Quote:
Seems like the problem bounced around a bit, but in the old thread ph23vo mentions you might have the big rod. If your engine has the "six pack rods" which were much bigger than the LY rods you need to have a specific harmonic balancer, AS WELL as a specific flywheel. Even though it is a steel crank. With the six pack rods there isn't enough weight on the counter balance weights of the crank to offset the weight of the rods.
If you DO have the six pack rods, then AFTER you get the proper balancer (it will look assymetrical, with more weight on one side)you then need to have the whole rotating assembly (pistons, rods, crank, balancer, and flywheel) ALL BALANCED TOGETHER.
IF you DON'T have six pack rods, then you need to get a harmonic dampner and flyhweel that are completely symmetrical (no weights on one side) and it should still be balanced, although this time balanced without the dampner and flywheel.
68 wouldn't have big rods but they could have been swapped in but you don't really need to have it external balance. I had a big rod/heavy TRW piston rod combo internal balanced , small amout of weight added back to the crank. I prefer internal balnce over external balance.
68 , when you get the flywheel off put up a picture of both side s please.
Yes, you can internally balance a heavy rotating assembly, but the odds of someone doing that on a standard rebuild without you specifically requesting it are pretty slim.
Last edited by VoodooCLD; 07/24/13 12:14 PM.
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1473185
07/24/13 12:21 PM
07/24/13 12:21 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,166 CT
GTX MATT
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I read your old post from 09 linked above. It looks like you didn't have the problem, replaced your flywheel and your cracked bellhousing with a new one, and had a problem. BUT it didn't vibrate without the transmission installed. Did I follow that correctly?
If that is correct it really sounds like, even if you did index the bellhousing, it wasn't indexed correctly and you had a serious input shaft/crankshaft misalignment, causing your vibration and this eventual carnage. Do you recall what the runout was when you indexed it?
Why did you have to trim the input shaft?
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: finn]
#1473190
07/24/13 01:22 PM
07/24/13 01:22 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,292 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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OP, I broke a stock cast bellhouisng like that due to a driveshaft vibration, my fault for driiving the car with a vibration mine was a 1965 Dodge with the old ball and trunion driveshaft, I changed the clutch out and found that someone had put a set of nuts between the driveshaft front U joint and the tailshaft yoke I removed them and tighten it up properly, it(the driveshaft) was to short and tha bound up the front B & T joint making it vibrate Sorry for your carnaged, mine broke the input shaft and bellhousing only I replace the driveshaft and all the broken parts and never had another issue with that car Make sure nothing vibrates in the car in neutral or going down the road
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: VoodooCLD]
#1473191
07/24/13 02:44 PM
07/24/13 02:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445 Missouri
68KillerBee
OP
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OP
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Woke up to let the puppy out. I'll try to answer all questions quickly. I do not know what the runout was on it either time. Sometimes they tell you to trim the input if you have a certain bearing in the crank, can't think off the top of my head. But that is what the transmission guys will say (mopar specific guys). It did not change anything, so they replaced that completely. I don't remember what I meant when I said it looked sideways. I probably just didn't know what I was looking at, at the time haha. That was probably about the time I overhauled my first transmission on my car. If anything, I'd imagine we replaced the transmission mount. Pretty sure even twice. We were literally trying everything, multiple times (where is banging head against wall smiley) I will check the bell-housing to front bearing retainer. Would hope its the same as we got the trans overhauled and bell-housing from the same person. Thanks! CabBurge, never wrecked and the vibration felt would be sitting still or driving above, say, 3000 rpm's. With the clutch pressed in or out. I'll take pictures of everything as we take it out.
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: 68KillerBee]
#1473192
07/24/13 03:08 PM
07/24/13 03:08 PM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 460 Oklahoma
VoodooCLD
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 460
Oklahoma
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Quote:
Woke up to let the puppy out. I'll try to answer all questions quickly.
I do not know what the runout was on it either time. Sometimes they tell you to trim the input if you have a certain bearing in the crank, can't think off the top of my head. But that is what the transmission guys will say (mopar specific guys). It did not change anything, so they replaced that completely. I don't remember what I meant when I said it looked sideways. I probably just didn't know what I was looking at, at the time haha. That was probably about the time I overhauled my first transmission on my car. If anything, I'd imagine we replaced the transmission mount. Pretty sure even twice. We were literally trying everything, multiple times (where is banging head against wall smiley) I will check the bell-housing to front bearing retainer. Would hope its the same as we got the trans overhauled and bell-housing from the same person. Thanks! CabBurge, never wrecked and the vibration felt would be sitting still or driving above, say, 3000 rpm's. With the clutch pressed in or out.
I'll take pictures of everything as we take it out.
Normally you cut the end off the transmission input shaft when you have a cast crank that doesn't have the end drilled for a pilot bushing. I believe i've also heard that some steel cranks are drilled, but not finished. This may have been the case since you said you have a steel crank.
The way you say it vibrates while sitting still, with the clutch pushed in, and engaged, makes me think it's in the engine/flywheel/pressure plate. And if you do in fact have a cast crank with neutral balance flywheel and balancer, then that could cause some problems.
YES, TAKE PICTURES!
Last edited by VoodooCLD; 07/24/13 03:09 PM.
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: 68KillerBee]
#1473193
07/24/13 04:35 PM
07/24/13 04:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,498 Omaha Ne
TJP
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Quote:
I will check the bell-housing to front bearing retainer. Would hope its the same as we got the trans overhauled and bell-housing from the same person.
the vibration felt would be sitting still or driving above, say, 3000 rpm's. With the clutch pressed in or out.
I'll take pictures of everything as we take it out.
the bearing retainer should be a snug/slip fit in the bell housing as it is what centers the trans to the crankshaft. The trans bolts are only there to hold it in place.
I'll agree if the vibration was felt sitting still with the clutch in or out and while the car was moving that indicates a severely mis-aligned bell housing, clutch, flywheel, crank, balancer, or other engine issue. keep us posted
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: TJP]
#1473194
07/24/13 05:04 PM
07/24/13 05:04 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT
gdonovan
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Quote:
I'll agree if the vibration was felt sitting still with the clutch in or out and while the car was moving that indicates a severely mis-aligned bell housing, clutch, flywheel, crank, balancer, or other engine issue. keep us posted
If the vibration is felt with the clutch pedal pushed IN then the bellhousing is a non-factor.
The big clue is it is felt when the pedal is pushed in as well, my money is on the engine having the wrong flywheel, it was out of balance and the crank finally broke at or near the flange and the carnage followed.
Sorry man, but I suspect that you are looking at an engine rebuild with a fresh crank (all the bearings will be beat to hell from the imbalance) along with a bellhousing and crank. Best check the driveshaft wasn't bent too.
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: gdonovan]
#1473195
07/24/13 06:12 PM
07/24/13 06:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,498 Omaha Ne
TJP
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I Live Here
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Quote:
Quote:
I'll agree if the vibration was felt sitting still with the clutch in or out and while the car was moving that indicates a severely mis-aligned bell housing, clutch, flywheel, crank, balancer, or other engine issue. keep us posted
If the vibration is felt with the clutch pedal pushed IN then the bellhousing is a non-factor.
The big clue is it is felt when the pedal is pushed in as well, my money is on the engine having the wrong flywheel, it was out of balance and the crank finally broke at or near the flange and the carnage followed.
Sorry man, but I suspect that you are looking at an engine rebuild with a fresh crank (all the bearings will be beat to hell from the imbalance) along with a bellhousing and crank. Best check the driveshaft wasn't bent too.
I'll disagree for the following reasons, If the bell housing was far enough off center or out of plane with the back of the block it could create a binding on the input shaft that could lead to a vibration whether the clutch was in or out. I would also like to say that at this time we don't know what the root cause was, nor do we know the extent of the damage. The motor may or may not be fine. Statements such as
Quote:
the crank finally broke at or near the flange and the carnage followed.
are pure speculation and will only make the OP feel worse than he already does
no offense meant to you just trying to help the guy find his problem
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: 68KillerBee]
#1473196
07/24/13 06:24 PM
07/24/13 06:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,498 Omaha Ne
TJP
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Quote:
Lot's of answers found in the old thread. You actually helped out also. Here is the one I could find. Seems this issue has been going on longer than I remembered.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=5264280
From one of your posts in the old thread Quote:
with the clutch, pressure plate, d-shaft and trans out there was no vibration at any rpm. put in new clutch, pressure plate, flywheel (refurbished from brewers), rebuilt transmission, new throw out bearing, and the vibration is still there
Re read that several times and think it through, the answer appears to be somewhere in the second sentence of the above quote
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: TJP]
#1473197
07/24/13 08:39 PM
07/24/13 08:39 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT
gdonovan
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Quote:
I'll disagree for the following reasons, If the bell housing was far enough off center or out of plane with the back of the block it could create a binding on the input shaft that could lead to a vibration whether the clutch was in or out.
If that was the case just installing the transmission would have been a major issue.
Quote:
The motor may or may not be fine. Statements such as
Quote:
the crank finally broke at or near the flange and the carnage followed.
are pure speculation and will only make the OP feel worse than he already does
Oh, I'd be the first one to say that I hope I'm wrong but have been on the end of vibration issues like the OP described and if you look at the one picture of the crank flange it looks like the back of the flywheel isn't in plane with the back of the block.
The OP can test by placing a small prybar on the flywheel and see if the end of the crank is still where it is suppose to be.
Picked up a car with a 440 that had the wrong damper on it, shook like a washer machine with cinderblocks in it.
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