Moparts
4 Speed Breakage
Posted By: 68KillerBee
4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 06:54 AM
We are getting a new garage and we were cleaning the old one out so we can tear it down. Power goes out in our neighborhood, so we hop in the GTX too cruise around a bit. Drove around town for a bit and heading home. A mile from our house the car starts grinding and sparks flying everywhere. I thought the driveshaft had just fallen off from the u joint at the rear. Well Dad finally gets it to stop and we go out to assess what happened. First thing we saw radiator was leaking and the transmission looked loose. Driveshaft angle was off, so we pulled it off and towed the car home. Get home, lights go on just as we finish pushing the car in the shed.
I hop under since I can finally see and find this:
The completely rebuilt motor was just finished up last year, transmission was professionally rebuilt, new clutch, pressure plate, bellhousing, driveshaft balanced, etc.
I mean where do you even start on fixing this? The motor let loose and came forward, so the fan took out the radiator in the center, who knows what could be wrong in the motor with the input shaft on the transmission completely ripping off, and hopefully it didn't mess up the rearend. The bellhousing ripped in half along with the front shaft! 18 spline transmission too. So frustrated as we have been messing with this car for two years and now this. The 440 is not pumping out tons of HP either, it is probably a mid to high 13 second car if I were to compare it to my (slow) 14.5 quarter I get in my super bee.
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 07:08 AM
That sucks man, it always feels like it never ends, but that is just absurdly unlucky.
I have no idea what the initial problem was, but I'm thinking an initial flywheel/crankshaft issue caused this.
Good luck
Posted By: 68KillerBee
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 07:22 AM
Quote:
That sucks man, it always feels like it never ends, but that is just absurdly unlucky.
I have no idea what the initial problem was, but I'm thinking an initial flywheel/crankshaft issue caused this.
Good luck
This is my dad's first car and it has sat multiple times due to it being to frustrating and dad steps away from it for a while. We redid my car when I was in high school instead of working on his. Him and I have barely even got to cruise around together because of the problems we run into with his car.
Worst part is that I know the car is just going to sit for quite a while cause my dad is just done with it. Putting all the time and money into rebuilding everything and now that's what happens. rant/venting over 
Posted By: a12superbee
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 09:24 AM
Wooooow, that is freaking impressive. Plenty-o-$$$-carnage. Sorry it's going to take a lot out of your dad's passion for the car.
I can think of a few ways to tear up something like that.
Bad mounts.
Incorrect drive shaft angle, maybe length.
Cracked bell that escaped detection.
Missing/loose bolts.
Lot's of ways to get there.
Were you banging on it? Hit any big bumps?
All fun and games until you break something and the wallet needs to come back out.
Posted By: 68KillerBee
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 09:41 AM
Quote:
Wooooow, that is freaking impressive. Plenty-o-$$$-carnage. Sorry it's going to take a lot out of your dad's passion for the car.
I can think of a few ways to tear up something like that.
Bad mounts.
Incorrect drive shaft angle, maybe length.
Cracked bell that escaped detection.
Missing/loose bolts.
Lot's of ways to get there.
Were you banging on it? Hit any big bumps?
All fun and games until you break something and the wallet needs to come back out.
So we rebuilt the motor last year and had a new clutch, pressure plate, flywheel, throwout (sp?) bearing put in. But we still had a slight vibration, so that was the only thing that hadn't been replaced. Took his old one out and had it rebuilt. Transmission guy said all seemed okay as far as possible vibrations coming from that, but went ahead and replaced a few things in there that had wear. Tighten everything back up and the car didn't want to go in any gear. Got the clutch rod adjusted correctly and this was the second time taking it out on the road. First time was a local cruise, 5 mph up and down a street blocked off for the cruise and a ten minute ride on the highway there and back. Then today took it out and got on it twice. Heading home going 45 mph and then that. I thought pinion angle as others talk about on here, but the car has been set up this way since the 80's. correctly aligned the bellhousing studs, so that takes out that possibility.
Also while chasing the vibration problem my dads bellhousing had previously broke and it was welded back together. Told transmission guy about that and he sent us a new one $$$. Also motor mounts are new and not the cheap ones and the transmission mount was new (now toasted). I believe rebuild on this was over 1k and less than 50 miles (at most) later it eats itself. Went back and found a big chunk of the bellhousing, clutch rod, boot, and the fork on the road.
I'm surprised at how my dad kept his cool through it all. Best case scenario is it needs a new bellhousing, transmission, and the radiator fixed. Usually when I'm I'll go take a cruise in my bee or challenger, well definitely not doing that tonight!!
Trying to do a few things to my car before Nationals, but this has killed it for me too. I'd rather just work on getting his car going again that weekend. 
Posted By: therocks
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 12:35 PM
I had a GM truck at work that just had a new C&PP installed.It went maybe 500 miles.It wasnt beat on.It tore up the tranny,bell,starter,slave.and the clutch.Never did figure out what went bad.I fixed it all and it was still going strong after 3 years.That looks like the bell let loose then the carnage followed.Only time Ive seen that much damage the clutch exploded.Rocky
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 01:39 PM
After sleeping on this, I bet that bellhousing needed to be indexed even though it was stock, and was just a bit too far off
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 02:02 PM
Bell broke first, I suspect that was your vibration.
Posted By: 68KillerBee
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 02:35 PM
Old bell housing with a piece welded was lined up. New one was too, where you use the offset dowels and what not? The one with the crack had been in the car since the 80s also and just the past few years the vibration showed up. (Same driveline since the 80s front to back). New one was checked also. New one put in and it was still present, that's why we figured the transmission had to be the vibration( last thing left we didn't rebuild)...
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 02:50 PM
Quote:
After sleeping on this, I bet that bellhousing needed to be indexed even though it was stock, and was just a bit too far off
This , new bellhousing , it is not indexed to the engine . Original bellhousing are attached to the engine block when it is being machined and mated to it .
the vibration could have been anything, it should have been found.
I'll ask a dumb question, was there a cover on the bottom of that bellhousing? Also what was the source of that bellhousing, used replacement part or brand new? That doesn't look like a factory Chrysler bellhousing?
As far as the pinion angle, you say it's been like that since the 80's, but that doesn't mean it's correct, what were the rear springs ? Was the rear and original car rear or a modified truck rear?
Posted By: DAYCLONA
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 02:55 PM
Wow, that really blows dude!, last time I seen something like that happen was when a former associate forgot to install the input shaft bearing in the front retainer, and the whole front of the input shaft grenaded like that!
It sucks when stuff like this happens, I have 2 approaches to issues like this, either tackle it right away to get over it and the fustration, or push it in the garage, let the fustration cool off, then tackle it when your "heart" is in it, to repair it....
Posted By: 71birdJ68
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 03:10 PM
I'll ask a dumb question, was there a cover on the bottom of that bellhousing?
That brings up a good point. I drove my car around with out a bottom cover back in the day. A tire threw a rock up and the flywheel grabbed it and sent it up and threw the top of the bell housing. Great big window in the top of housing.
As to his question about offset dowel pins. I heard the bell housings were line bored on the block when they did the line bore for the crank. And to back that up the service manual states that any time that a bell housing is swapped from another motor or Damaged it should be checked for runout.Your only allowed .004 runout, I think if I remember right. You know looks like it broke the crank flange also.
Posted By: calrobb2000
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 03:11 PM
hi ,
with that kind of damage there shoud have been oi /trany fluid every where ?
did not see it in the pic , you did have fluid in it ????
also is that a internal balanced engine or a cast crank external needing a matching flywheel ?
Posted By: 68KillerBee
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 03:14 PM
Quote:
Quote:
After sleeping on this, I bet that bellhousing needed to be indexed even though it was stock, and was just a bit too far off
This , new bellhousing , it is not indexed to the engine . Original bellhousing are attached to the engine block when it is being machined and mated to it .
the vibration could have been anything , it should have been found .
I'll ask a dumb question , was there a cover on the bottom of that bellhousing ? Also what was the source of that bellhousing , used replacement part or brand new ?
as far as the pinion angle , you say it's been like that since the 80's , but that doesn't mean it's correct , what were the rear springs ? Was the rear and original car rear or a modified truck rear ?
Indexed, does that equal the dowel pin deal? If so, that was done. I believe it had one of the plastic inspection covers on it. It is the correct Dana for the car with SS leaf springs still on it.
Well considering we got an entirely different block, different balancer, literally everything was different and it was still present. Nobody could figure out what it was from.
New motor, unhook all the power accessories and it was still there.
New motor mounts, new front end, new transmission mount, driveshaft balanced, new u joints all the way around, different exhaust (in case it was hitting) etc etc.
Cut the input shaft in case that was the problem and that did nothing. Then when we got the transmission rebuild that was all new input shaft and what not. I would have to find a receipt to see if the bellhousing was used or brand new. The "new" bellhousing was used before we got the transmission rebuilt with no problem. One of us would torque down bolts and other would always check, we were that paranoid (cautious?).
Look at previous threads I had on this problem and no solutions worked out.
Thats about all I can think that we have done with the car. O and lots of cursing at it over the past 3-5 years . Something I was surprised I did not even hear last night when this happened lol.
We've thought of just about everything, even possibility that the floor pans weren't welded in good enough and that's how were feeling it
Posted By: finn
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 03:18 PM
Quote:
Quote:
After sleeping on this, I bet that bellhousing needed to be indexed even though it was stock, and was just a bit too far off
This , new bellhousing , it is not indexed to the engine . Original bellhousing are attached to the engine block when it is being machined and mated to it .
I can see that you have never been in an engine machining / assembly plant.
The only thing attached to an engine block for machining is the bearing caps or main bearing bedplate (if equipped).
A bellhousing is machined separately, most likely in a separate plant, or at a minimum in a separate area of the plant, and taken off a palate or feeder and randomly selected to be bolted to the back of an engine. This is a relatively non-critical joint as far as geometry goes.
Looks like an assembly error to me. Probably left the bolts loose.
Accidents happen, especially on long term off again / on again projects.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 03:19 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
After sleeping on this, I bet that bellhousing needed to be indexed even though it was stock, and was just a bit too far off
This , new bellhousing , it is not indexed to the engine . Original bellhousing are attached to the engine block when it is being machined and mated to it .
the vibration could have been anything , it should have been found .
I'll ask a dumb question , was there a cover on the bottom of that bellhousing ? Also what was the source of that bellhousing , used replacement part or brand new ?
as far as the pinion angle , you say it's been like that since the 80's , but that doesn't mean it's correct , what were the rear springs ? Was the rear and original car rear or a modified truck rear ?
Indexed, does that equal the dowel pin deal? If so, that was done. I believe it had one of the plastic inspection covers on it. It is the correct Dana for the car with SS leaf springs still on it.
Well considering we got an entirely different block, different balancer, literally everything was different and it was still present. Nobody could figure out what it was from.
New motor, unhook all the power accessories and it was still there.
New motor mounts, new front end, new transmission mount, driveshaft balanced, new u joints all the way around, different exhaust (in case it was hitting) etc etc.
Cut the input shaft in case that was the problem and that did nothing. Then when we got the transmission rebuild that was all new input shaft and what not. I would have to find a receipt to see if the bellhousing was used or brand new. The "new" bellhousing was used before we got the transmission rebuilt with no problem. One of us would torque down bolts and other would always check, we were that paranoid (cautious?).
Look at previous threads I had on this problem and no solutions worked out.
Thats about all I can think that we have done with the car. O and lots of cursing at it over the past 3-5 years . Something I was surprised I did not even hear last night when this happened lol.
We've thought of just about everything, even possibility that the floor pans weren't welded in good enough and that's how were feeling it
Cast crank or forged , internal or external balance ? Was the flywheel checked for neutral if it's a neutral as i see it is an OLD original flywheel. SS springs , was the pinion angle corrected when they were originally installed as they do change the pinion angle.
Yes indexing is the offset dowel deal. Do you have a picture of that bellhousing when it was in one piece ?
Link to old thread on this issue ?
Posted By: 68KillerBee
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 03:27 PM
Quote:
hi ,
with that kind of damage there shoud have been oi /trany fluid every where ?
did not see it in the pic , you did have fluid in it ????
also is that a internal balanced engine or a cast crank external needing a matching flywheel ?
This happened ~a mile up the road. Someone gave me a ride to our house and I grabbed the truck to pull it home. Realized the driveshaft was not going to cooperate so went back home and got tools. Basically the pictures are from 2.5 hours after this happened and in our shed. It was full of fluid, you can follow our trail home bc of all the fluid. That and a bunch of antifreeze. I don't remember the motor specs, but this all was looked at before the rebuild since the vibration was the reason for a rebuild. Once again rebuild = New block, heads were reworked for the old motor bc someone said that could be the vibration, new crank, cam, everything.
I work overnights so I'm heading to bed now. Don't really know what my dad is gonna do with the car now. I wanted to start taking it out last night, but kept as is to document better and see what dad thinks.
Thanks for all the replies though and constructive criticism. I will show dad this to verify what I'm saying is correct or answer questions I can't. 
Posted By: 71birdJ68
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 03:30 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
After sleeping on this, I bet that bellhousing needed to be indexed even though it was stock, and was just a bit too far off
This , new bellhousing , it is not indexed to the engine . Original bellhousing are attached to the engine block when it is being machined and mated to it .
I can see that you have never been in an engine machining / assembly plant.
The only thing attached to an engine block for machining is the bearing caps or main bearing bedplate (if equipped).
A bellhousing is machined separately, most likely in a separate plant, or at a minimum in a separate area of the plant, and taken off a palate or feeder and randomly selected to be bolted to the back of an engine. This is a relatively non-critical joint as far as geometry goes.
Looks like an assembly error to me. Probably left the bolts loose.
Accidents happen, especially on long term off again / on again projects.
Did that hold true for the 1900s, before cnc's,computers,ect.? Why would the book say if the housings were swapped from different blocks that they need indexed. And if its not critical why are we only allowed .004 runout?
Posted By: VoodooCLD
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 03:34 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
After sleeping on this, I bet that bellhousing needed to be indexed even though it was stock, and was just a bit too far off
This , new bellhousing , it is not indexed to the engine . Original bellhousing are attached to the engine block when it is being machined and mated to it .
the vibration could have been anything , it should have been found .
I'll ask a dumb question , was there a cover on the bottom of that bellhousing ? Also what was the source of that bellhousing , used replacement part or brand new ?
as far as the pinion angle , you say it's been like that since the 80's , but that doesn't mean it's correct , what were the rear springs ? Was the rear and original car rear or a modified truck rear ?
Indexed, does that equal the dowel pin deal? If so, that was done. I believe it had one of the plastic inspection covers on it. It is the correct Dana for the car with SS leaf springs still on it.
Well considering we got an entirely different block, different balancer, literally everything was different and it was still present. Nobody could figure out what it was from.
New motor, unhook all the power accessories and it was still there.
New motor mounts, new front end, new transmission mount, driveshaft balanced, new u joints all the way around, different exhaust (in case it was hitting) etc etc.
Cut the input shaft in case that was the problem and that did nothing. Then when we got the transmission rebuild that was all new input shaft and what not. I would have to find a receipt to see if the bellhousing was used or brand new. The "new" bellhousing was used before we got the transmission rebuilt with no problem. One of us would torque down bolts and other would always check, we were that paranoid (cautious?).
Look at previous threads I had on this problem and no solutions worked out.
Thats about all I can think that we have done with the car. O and lots of cursing at it over the past 3-5 years . Something I was surprised I did not even hear last night when this happened lol.
We've thought of just about everything, even possibility that the floor pans weren't welded in good enough and that's how were feeling it
Cast crank or forged , internal or external balance ? Was the flywheel checked for neutral if it's a neutral as i see it is an OLD original flywheel. SS springs , was the pinion angle corrected when they were originally installed as they do change the pinion angle.
Yes indexing is the offset dowel deal. Do you have a picture of that bellhousing when it was in one piece ?
Link to old thread on this issue ?
This is what i was going to ask. It seems to me that you've had vibration issues all along. If the crankshaft if set up neutral balance and you put a flywheel with a weight on it, your gonna havea bad time. Same goes if the engine is externally balanced, and you have a a flywheel with no weight on it.
The post about forgetting the input shaft bushing that goes into the crank is a good possibility as well. Look in the end of the crank and see if there is a bronze bushing in there, or on the end of the transmission input shaft.
Short of those 2 things, i can't really think of anything else that would have caused that much carnage unless it was loose bolts.
Good luck. I'd jump right in and get it fixed. Use that anger as motivation to fix it right.
Posted By: 68KillerBee
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 03:35 PM
Quote:
Cast crank or forged , internal or external balance ? Was the flywheel checked for neutral if it's a neutral as i see it is an OLD original flywheel. SS springs , was the pinion angle corrected when they were originally installed as they do change the pinion angle.
Yes indexing is the offset dowel deal. Do you have a picture of that bellhousing when it was in one piece ?
Link to old thread on this issue ?
Lot's of answers found in the old thread. You actually helped out also.
Here is the one I could find. Seems this issue has been going on longer than I remembered. 
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=5264280
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 03:42 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
After sleeping on this, I bet that bellhousing needed to be indexed even though it was stock, and was just a bit too far off
This , new bellhousing , it is not indexed to the engine . Original bellhousing are attached to the engine block when it is being machined and mated to it .
I can see that you have never been in an engine machining / assembly plant.
The only thing attached to an engine block for machining is the bearing caps or main bearing bedplate (if equipped).
A bellhousing is machined separately, most likely in a separate plant, or at a minimum in a separate area of the plant, and taken off a palate or feeder and randomly selected to be bolted to the back of an engine. This is a relatively non-critical joint as far as geometry goes.
I'm going to GUESS that you did not work for Chrysler in their engine plant back in the 60's? ... Neither did I 
.... I see that you are were a Diesel development Engineer and have probably forgotten more than I know, but ....
I don't know if I saved it but on more than one occasion a picture has been posted on this website during a discussion about this subject ... indexing a bellhousing ... showing Chrysler engine blocks before/awaiting assembly and it clearly shows EMPTY blocks both with and without bellhousings attached to them waiting for their turn.
I put a stock '513 alum 130 tooth bellhousing on the back of a 68 383 block and checked the runout , it wasn't even close to the factory allowable spec ...
well it all came to a head...
sorry for your loss bro.
for future reference
internal balance (forged crank) = neutral harmonic balancer, neutral flywheel (standard shift) neutral torque converter/flexplate combo (automatic)
external balance (cast crank) = offset-weighted harmonic balancer (specific to engine model) offset-weighted flywheel (standard shift) offset-weighted flexplate (if using B&M flexplate with neutral torqe converter) or offset-weighted torque converter /stock flexplate
any suspect clutch/flywheel/pressureplate components (cracks or heat glazed) should be junked and replaced because of clutch explosion dangers. a blow-proof bell housing (high tensile steel SFI approved) is preferred over the cast iron stock bell housing for any performance builds.
Posted By: VoodooCLD
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 03:56 PM
Seems like the problem bounced around a bit, but in the old thread ph23vo mentions you might have the big rod.
If your engine has the "six pack rods" which were much bigger than the LY rods you need to have a specific harmonic balancer, AS WELL as a specific flywheel. Even though it is a steel crank. With the six pack rods there isn't enough weight on the counter balance weights of the crank to offset the weight of the rods.
If you DO have the six pack rods, then AFTER you get the proper balancer (it will look assymetrical, with more weight on one side)you then need to have the whole rotating assembly (pistons, rods, crank, balancer, and flywheel) ALL BALANCED TOGETHER.
IF you DON'T have six pack rods, then you need to get a harmonic dampner and flyhweel that are completely symmetrical (no weights on one side)
and it should still be balanced, although this time balanced without the dampner and flywheel.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 04:06 PM
Quote:
Seems like the problem bounced around a bit, but in the old thread ph23vo mentions you might have the big rod.
If your engine has the "six pack rods" which were much bigger than the LY rods you need to have a specific harmonic balancer, AS WELL as a specific flywheel. Even though it is a steel crank. With the six pack rods there isn't enough weight on the counter balance weights of the crank to offset the weight of the rods.
If you DO have the six pack rods, then AFTER you get the proper balancer (it will look assymetrical, with more weight on one side)you then need to have the whole rotating assembly (pistons, rods, crank, balancer, and flywheel) ALL BALANCED TOGETHER.
IF you DON'T have six pack rods, then you need to get a harmonic dampner and flyhweel that are completely symmetrical (no weights on one side)
and it should still be balanced, although this time balanced without the dampner and flywheel.
68 wouldn't have big rods but they could have been swapped in but you don't really need to have it external balance. I had a big rod/heavy TRW piston rod combo internal balanced , small amout of weight added back to the crank. I prefer internal balnce over external balance.
68 , when you get the flywheel off put up a picture of both side s please.
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 04:12 PM
On the loose bolt theories, I do know a guy who installed his 18 spline 833 with only one bolt holding it to the bellhousing. The others were stipped/didn't line up, so he figured he'd just let it fly.
The car in question is a plum crazy '70 440 Six Pack 4 speed Super Track Pack Charger R/T, mind you, with a white interior (pretty car).
Well he drove it around a few miles, proceeded to lay into it a bit, and around the time he tried to yank second he started to lose the shifter. Despite his best efforts to hold the tranny in the car with the pistol grip, he could not, and through the transmission tunnel it went!
It doesn't really make a point regarding your problem, but a funny story that relates somewhat, and might make you feel a little better with a laugh.
Posted By: VoodooCLD
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 04:13 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Seems like the problem bounced around a bit, but in the old thread ph23vo mentions you might have the big rod.
If your engine has the "six pack rods" which were much bigger than the LY rods you need to have a specific harmonic balancer, AS WELL as a specific flywheel. Even though it is a steel crank. With the six pack rods there isn't enough weight on the counter balance weights of the crank to offset the weight of the rods.
If you DO have the six pack rods, then AFTER you get the proper balancer (it will look assymetrical, with more weight on one side)you then need to have the whole rotating assembly (pistons, rods, crank, balancer, and flywheel) ALL BALANCED TOGETHER.
IF you DON'T have six pack rods, then you need to get a harmonic dampner and flyhweel that are completely symmetrical (no weights on one side)
and it should still be balanced, although this time balanced without the dampner and flywheel.
68 wouldn't have big rods but they could have been swapped in but you don't really need to have it external balance. I had a big rod/heavy TRW piston rod combo internal balanced , small amout of weight added back to the crank. I prefer internal balnce over external balance.
68 , when you get the flywheel off put up a picture of both side s please.
Yes, you can internally balance a heavy rotating assembly, but the odds of someone doing that on a standard rebuild without you specifically requesting it are pretty slim.
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 04:21 PM
I read your old post from 09 linked above. It looks like you didn't have the problem, replaced your flywheel and your cracked bellhousing with a new one, and had a problem. BUT it didn't vibrate without the transmission installed. Did I follow that correctly?
If that is correct it really sounds like, even if you did index the bellhousing, it wasn't indexed correctly and you had a serious input shaft/crankshaft misalignment, causing your vibration and this eventual carnage. Do you recall what the runout was when you indexed it?
Why did you have to trim the input shaft?
Posted By: Jeremiah
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 04:33 PM
Does the car have classic car insurance like Hagerty or something? I'd be making a call to my rep.
Posted By: superbeedave
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 04:46 PM
If I may give my
worth. You said on your prior post back in 2009 that when you had the car up on the lift you said and I quote (i noticed the tranny mount looked kinda sideways also) Why would a trans mount go sideways? Is everything from the rearend thru the drive shaft thru trans. up to the engine inline correctly. Or is it possibly pulling to one side so much that the whole assembly is cocked which would cause your mount to go sideways or vibration. Was this car ever wrecked in the rear? Hey, I'm just asking! I know that could be a stupid question but it seems like he has tried everything unless your machine shop or anyone that has done work on your engine/trans is lying about performing the balancing that is required.
Posted By: TJP
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 04:54 PM
Other than what has already been mentioned I can only ask one other question,
Did the ID of the bell housing match the OD of the front bearing retainer on the trans. ???? I have seen a couple of vehicles come through the shop with carnage similar to yours and the root cause was mismatched bearing retainer to bell housing ID.
I might also suggest a scatter shield in lieu of a stock bell housing. They are 40+ years old and questionable at best
Posted By: finn
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 05:08 PM
From his third picture it almost looks like the crankshaft is broken.
If so then the transmission / belhousing carnage is collateral damage.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 05:22 PM
OP, I broke a stock cast bellhouisng like that due to a driveshaft vibration, my fault for driiving the car with a vibration
mine was a 1965 Dodge with the old ball and trunion driveshaft, I changed the clutch out and found that someone had put a set of nuts between the driveshaft front U joint and the tailshaft yoke
I removed them and tighten it up properly, it(the driveshaft) was to short and tha bound up the front B & T joint making it vibrate
Sorry for your carnaged, mine broke the input shaft and bellhousing only
I replace the driveshaft and all the broken parts and never had another issue with that car
Make sure nothing vibrates in the car in neutral or going down the road
Posted By: 68KillerBee
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 06:44 PM
Woke up to let the puppy out. I'll try to answer all questions quickly.
I do not know what the runout was on it either time. Sometimes they tell you to trim the input if you have a certain bearing in the crank, can't think off the top of my head. But that is what the transmission guys will say (mopar specific guys). It did not change anything, so they replaced that completely.
I don't remember what I meant when I said it looked sideways. I probably just didn't know what I was looking at, at the time haha. That was probably about the time I overhauled my first transmission on my car. If anything, I'd imagine we replaced the transmission mount. Pretty sure even twice. We were literally trying everything, multiple times (where is banging head against wall smiley)
I will check the bell-housing to front bearing retainer. Would hope its the same as we got the trans overhauled and bell-housing from the same person. Thanks!
CabBurge, never wrecked and the vibration felt would be sitting still or driving above, say, 3000 rpm's. With the clutch pressed in or out.
I'll take pictures of everything as we take it out.
Posted By: VoodooCLD
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 07:08 PM
Quote:
Woke up to let the puppy out. I'll try to answer all questions quickly.
I do not know what the runout was on it either time. Sometimes they tell you to trim the input if you have a certain bearing in the crank, can't think off the top of my head. But that is what the transmission guys will say (mopar specific guys). It did not change anything, so they replaced that completely.
I don't remember what I meant when I said it looked sideways. I probably just didn't know what I was looking at, at the time haha. That was probably about the time I overhauled my first transmission on my car. If anything, I'd imagine we replaced the transmission mount. Pretty sure even twice. We were literally trying everything, multiple times (where is banging head against wall smiley)
I will check the bell-housing to front bearing retainer. Would hope its the same as we got the trans overhauled and bell-housing from the same person. Thanks!
CabBurge, never wrecked and the vibration felt would be sitting still or driving above, say, 3000 rpm's. With the clutch pressed in or out.
I'll take pictures of everything as we take it out.
Normally you cut the end off the transmission input shaft when you have a cast crank that doesn't have the end drilled for a pilot bushing. I believe i've also heard that some steel cranks are drilled, but not finished. This may have been the case since you said you have a steel crank.
The way you say it vibrates while sitting still, with the clutch pushed in, and engaged, makes me think it's in the engine/flywheel/pressure plate.
And if you do in fact have a cast crank with neutral balance flywheel and balancer, then that could cause some problems.
YES, TAKE PICTURES!
Posted By: TJP
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 08:35 PM
Quote:
I will check the bell-housing to front bearing retainer. Would hope its the same as we got the trans overhauled and bell-housing from the same person.
the vibration felt would be sitting still or driving above, say, 3000 rpm's. With the clutch pressed in or out.
I'll take pictures of everything as we take it out.
the bearing retainer should be a snug/slip fit in the bell housing as it is what centers the trans to the crankshaft. The trans bolts are only there to hold it in place.
I'll agree if the vibration was felt sitting still with the clutch in or out and while the car was moving that indicates a severely mis-aligned bell housing, clutch, flywheel, crank, balancer, or other engine issue. keep us posted
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 09:04 PM
Quote:
I'll agree if the vibration was felt sitting still with the clutch in or out and while the car was moving that indicates a severely mis-aligned bell housing, clutch, flywheel, crank, balancer, or other engine issue. keep us posted
If the vibration is felt with the clutch pedal pushed IN then the bellhousing is a non-factor.
The big clue is it is felt when the pedal is pushed in as well, my money is on the engine having the wrong flywheel, it was out of balance and the crank finally broke at or near the flange and the carnage followed.
Sorry man, but I suspect that you are looking at an engine rebuild with a fresh crank (all the bearings will be beat to hell from the imbalance) along with a bellhousing and crank. Best check the driveshaft wasn't bent too.
Posted By: TJP
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 10:12 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I'll agree if the vibration was felt sitting still with the clutch in or out and while the car was moving that indicates a severely mis-aligned bell housing, clutch, flywheel, crank, balancer, or other engine issue. keep us posted
If the vibration is felt with the clutch pedal pushed IN then the bellhousing is a non-factor.
The big clue is it is felt when the pedal is pushed in as well, my money is on the engine having the wrong flywheel, it was out of balance and the crank finally broke at or near the flange and the carnage followed.
Sorry man, but I suspect that you are looking at an engine rebuild with a fresh crank (all the bearings will be beat to hell from the imbalance) along with a bellhousing and crank. Best check the driveshaft wasn't bent too.
I'll disagree for the following reasons,
If the bell housing was far enough off center or out of plane with the back of the block it could create a binding on the input shaft that could lead to a vibration whether the clutch was in or out.
I would also like to say that at this time we don't know what the root cause was, nor do we know the extent of the damage. The motor may or may not be fine. Statements such as
Quote:
the crank finally broke at or near the flange and the carnage followed.
are pure speculation and will only make the OP feel worse than he already does 
no offense meant to you just trying to help the guy find his problem
Posted By: TJP
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/24/13 10:24 PM
Quote:
Lot's of answers found in the old thread. You actually helped out also.
Here is the one I could find. Seems this issue has been going on longer than I remembered.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=5264280
From one of your posts in the old thread
Quote:
with the clutch, pressure plate, d-shaft and trans out there was no vibration at any rpm.
put in new clutch, pressure plate, flywheel (refurbished from brewers), rebuilt transmission, new throw out bearing, and the vibration is still there
Re read that several times and think it through, the answer appears to be somewhere in the second sentence of the above quote 
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/25/13 12:39 AM
Quote:
I'll disagree for the following reasons,
If the bell housing was far enough off center or out of plane with the back of the block it could create a binding on the input shaft that could lead to a vibration whether the clutch was in or out.
If that was the case just installing the transmission would have been a major issue.
Quote:
The motor may or may not be fine. Statements such as
Quote:
the crank finally broke at or near the flange and the carnage followed.
are pure speculation and will only make the OP feel worse than he already does
Oh, I'd be the first one to say that I hope I'm wrong but have been on the end of vibration issues like the OP described and if you look at the one picture of the crank flange it looks like the back of the flywheel isn't in plane with the back of the block.
The OP can test by placing a small prybar on the flywheel and see if the end of the crank is still where it is suppose to be.
Picked up a car with a 440 that had the wrong damper on it, shook like a washer machine with cinderblocks in it.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/25/13 03:42 AM
Quote:
... and if you look at the one picture of the crank flange it looks like the back of the flywheel isn't in plane with the back of the block.
I was noticing the same thing .
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/25/13 06:24 AM
Quote:
Quote:
... and if you look at the one picture of the crank flange it looks like the back of the flywheel isn't in plane with the back of the block.
I was noticing the same thing .
In my first response I was thinking that it looked like that was what happened, but wasn't sure if it was just a funny picture. Still, something was the source of a vibration with the transmission installed, which makes me think that whatever the failure was the root cause was in the bellhousing runout.
Posted By: 68KillerBee
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/25/13 11:59 AM
Quote:
From one of your posts in the old thread
Quote:
with the clutch, pressure plate, d-shaft and trans out there was no vibration at any rpm.
put in new clutch, pressure plate, flywheel (refurbished from brewers), rebuilt transmission, new throw out bearing, and the vibration is still there
Re read that several times and think it through, the answer appears to be somewhere in the second sentence of the above quote
Refurbished flywheel from a well known, all Mopar transmission guy?
The camera angle was weird on that pic as the flywheel looks even all the way around once fully under the car. It won't budge anywhere with a pry bar. I'll be able to talk with my dad tomorrow to see what the plan of attack is.
edit: also, the vibration is not as bad as it used to be before all of these new parts were put on it. It wasn't jarring or anything horrible, just enough to annoy you. But most of that subsided. Since we have been working on this problem, it has gone 2-300 miles at the most. That's including the old set up and when the problem appeared. So he hasn't driven it much at all because of it, just don't want you all to think that he's been driving it all around with this problem.
I've driven my super bee 25,000 miles on a transmission and bell set up that we did years ago. Have had my transmission in and out 3 times since I've owned it. Not saying mistakes don't happen, but we've done this in the past and no problems.
Also to clarify exactly what the vibration was felt in all of these scenarios:
-At a dead stop with clutch pushed in and revved up and with clutch released when revved up.
-Driving, no particular speed was it felt at, only at the rpm level. (Just the same thing as if it was at a dead stop).
So really that takes out the driveshaft, although I understand "good" pinion angle is not guaranteed.
Would the possibility of poorly welded front floor pans cause a flex on the area where the transmission mount is....? Trying to think out of the box 
.
I still will investigate all ideas you all have written. I really do appreciate it everyone
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/25/13 12:27 PM
Quote:
The camera angle was weird on that pic as the flywheel looks even all the way around once fully under the car. It won't budge anywhere with a pry bar. I'll be able to talk with my dad tomorrow to see what the plan of attack is.
Even you have a free moment, see if you can turn the motor or rock it from the crank damper. If the flywheel moves then its all good for sure, I forgot to mention this the other day.
I hope the engine is ok, I'm just trying to analyze the damage and posit the initial failure point. Until you have it apart all we have is the pictures posted to go by and description of events and so this is all speculation of course.
Posted By: therocks
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/25/13 01:08 PM
With the way the trans looks the motor might not turn.One I has would not turn till we pulled the trans and bell.Motor was good.Rocky
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/25/13 03:16 PM
Quote:
Quote:
From one of your posts in the old thread
Quote:
with the clutch, pressure plate, d-shaft and trans out there was no vibration at any rpm.
put in new clutch, pressure plate, flywheel (refurbished from brewers), rebuilt transmission, new throw out bearing, and the vibration is still there
Re read that several times and think it through, the answer appears to be somewhere in the second sentence of the above quote
Refurbished flywheel from a well known, all Mopar transmission guy?
The camera angle was weird on that pic as the flywheel looks even all the way around once fully under the car. It won't budge anywhere with a pry bar. I'll be able to talk with my dad tomorrow to see what the plan of attack is.
edit: also, the vibration is not as bad as it used to be before all of these new parts were put on it. It wasn't jarring or anything horrible, just enough to annoy you. But most of that subsided. Since we have been working on this problem, it has gone 2-300 miles at the most. That's including the old set up and when the problem appeared. So he hasn't driven it much at all because of it, just don't want you all to think that he's been driving it all around with this problem.
I've driven my super bee 25,000 miles on a transmission and bell set up that we did years ago. Have had my transmission in and out 3 times since I've owned it. Not saying mistakes don't happen, but we've done this in the past and no problems.
Also to clarify exactly what the vibration was felt in all of these scenarios:
-At a dead stop with clutch pushed in and revved up and with clutch released when revved up.
-Driving, no particular speed was it felt at, only at the rpm level. (Just the same thing as if it was at a dead stop).
So really that takes out the driveshaft, although I understand "good" pinion angle is not guaranteed.
Would the possibility of poorly welded front floor pans cause a flex on the area where the transmission mount is....? Trying to think out of the box .
I still will investigate all ideas you all have written. I really do appreciate it everyone
Have the floor pans been replaced ?
I'd be looking at an imbalance with the Flywheel and pressure plate .
Did you confirm the flywheel was neutral balance or did you just ASSuME it because you got the flywheel from "a well known, all Mopar transmission guy" ?
Not that I'm knocking Wayne, but I have bought high dollar parts from big name companies that were not as good as they should have been.
Posted By: 68KillerBee
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/25/13 03:33 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
From one of your posts in the old thread
Quote:
with the clutch, pressure plate, d-shaft and trans out there was no vibration at any rpm.
put in new clutch, pressure plate, flywheel (refurbished from brewers), rebuilt transmission, new throw out bearing, and the vibration is still there
Re read that several times and think it through, the answer appears to be somewhere in the second sentence of the above quote
Refurbished flywheel from a well known, all Mopar transmission guy?
The camera angle was weird on that pic as the flywheel looks even all the way around once fully under the car. It won't budge anywhere with a pry bar. I'll be able to talk with my dad tomorrow to see what the plan of attack is.
edit: also, the vibration is not as bad as it used to be before all of these new parts were put on it. It wasn't jarring or anything horrible, just enough to annoy you. But most of that subsided. Since we have been working on this problem, it has gone 2-300 miles at the most. That's including the old set up and when the problem appeared. So he hasn't driven it much at all because of it, just don't want you all to think that he's been driving it all around with this problem.
I've driven my super bee 25,000 miles on a transmission and bell set up that we did years ago. Have had my transmission in and out 3 times since I've owned it. Not saying mistakes don't happen, but we've done this in the past and no problems.
Also to clarify exactly what the vibration was felt in all of these scenarios:
-At a dead stop with clutch pushed in and revved up and with clutch released when revved up.
-Driving, no particular speed was it felt at, only at the rpm level. (Just the same thing as if it was at a dead stop).
So really that takes out the driveshaft, although I understand "good" pinion angle is not guaranteed.
Would the possibility of poorly welded front floor pans cause a flex on the area where the transmission mount is....? Trying to think out of the box .
I still will investigate all ideas you all have written. I really do appreciate it everyone
Have the floor pans been replaced ?
I'd be looking at an imbalance with the Flywheel and pressure plate .
Did you confirm the flywheel was neutral balance or did you just ASSuME it because you got the flywheel from "a well known, all Mopar transmission guy" ?
Not that I'm knocking Wayne, but I have bought high dollar parts from big name companies that were not as good as they should have been.
Ahh, my favorite word you use ha. You told me about that in the original thread, so we found a place to do it. I'd have to find the receipt to verify what they did.
And yes, the floor pans had been replaced.
Posted By: TJP
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/25/13 03:45 PM
I would not even be thinking about the floor pans etc. An old engineering manager of mine would call that "chasing ghosts". The answer is somewhere in your previous post.
The vibration appears after installing the clutch assembly and transmission, OK that would indicate to me the vibration was due to
1. something in the clutch assembly.
2. A problem with the bell housing itself
3. The transmission.
Another thing to keep in mind is, we don't know that the vibration caused the failure only that it was there before. the 40 year old bell housing may have been fractured due to being dropped and it was not apparent.
I have seen 2 very similar failures (almost identical) both were caused by an incorrect bearing retainer OD to Bell housing ID.
Posted By: 68KillerBee
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/25/13 04:14 PM
Quote:
I would not even be thinking about the floor pans etc. An old engineering manager of mine would call that "chasing ghosts". The answer is somewhere in your previous post.
The vibration appears after installing the clutch assembly and transmission, OK that would indicate to me the vibration was due to
1. something in the clutch assembly.
2. A problem with the bell housing itself
3. The transmission.
Another thing to keep in mind is, we don't know that the vibration caused the failure only that it was there before. the 40 year old bell housing may have been fractured due to being dropped and it was not apparent.
I have seen 2 very similar failures (almost identical) both were caused by an incorrect bearing retainer OD to Bell housing ID.
I see what you're saying, but this has been happening after two different clutches, pressure plates, bellhousings, flywheels, bearings in the crank and after a complete re-haul of the transmission, new fork etc. The car has never been wrecked either (i don't think I answered that earlier).So I can't dismiss something as dumb(trust me, I know it is dumb) as that. But it could have simply been the bellhousing, i believe that was the first thing I found in the road when I retrieved pieces. Once we take it out I will check the bearing sizes.
I'll be back with more info/pictures on Wednesday at the earliest, or if dad pulls it out by himself before then. Isn't too hard since the only thing holding the transmission is the transmission mount 
.
Thanks again fellas 
Posted By: VoodooCLD
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/25/13 04:23 PM
Quote:
I would not even be thinking about the floor pans etc. An old engineering manager of mine would call that "chasing ghosts". The answer is somewhere in your previous post.
The vibration appears after installing the clutch assembly and transmission, OK that would indicate to me the vibration was due to
1. something in the clutch assembly.
2. A problem with the bell housing itself
3. The transmission.
Another thing to keep in mind is, we don't know that the vibration caused the failure only that it was there before. the 40 year old bell housing may have been fractured due to being dropped and it was not apparent.
I have seen 2 very similar failures (almost identical) both were caused by an incorrect bearing retainer OD to Bell housing ID.
Not to highjack the post, but i bought one of those converter rings to put on my bearing retatiner from brewers. Has there ever been any instances of them falling off and ending up in the clutch? It's got me kind of worried.
Posted By: ta3834bbl
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/25/13 04:37 PM
In the second picture of this thread, it looks like there is discoloration next to the threads , is that rust from a previous fracture or is that oil hanging in the casting ?
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/25/13 05:48 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I would not even be thinking about the floor pans etc. An old engineering manager of mine would call that "chasing ghosts". The answer is somewhere in your previous post.
The vibration appears after installing the clutch assembly and transmission, OK that would indicate to me the vibration was due to
1. something in the clutch assembly.
2. A problem with the bell housing itself
3. The transmission.
Another thing to keep in mind is, we don't know that the vibration caused the failure only that it was there before. the 40 year old bell housing may have been fractured due to being dropped and it was not apparent.
I have seen 2 very similar failures (almost identical) both were caused by an incorrect bearing retainer OD to Bell housing ID.
I see what you're saying, but this has been happening after two different clutches, pressure plates, bellhousings, flywheels, bearings in the crank and after a complete re-haul of the transmission, new fork etc. The car has never been wrecked either (i don't think I answered that earlier).So I can't dismiss something as dumb(trust me, I know it is dumb) as that. But it could have simply been the bellhousing, i believe that was the first thing I found in the road when I retrieved pieces. Once we take it out I will check the bearing sizes.
I'll be back with more info/pictures on Wednesday at the earliest, or if dad pulls it out by himself before then. Isn't too hard since the only thing holding the transmission is the transmission mount .
Thanks again fellas
Tell us about the engine rebuild , did it involve new parts other than rings and more importantly a balance job ?
I can't see the floor pans being the cause as something would have to vibrate to cause it to resonate thru the floors that would have had to have been very poorly attached to the car.
Posted By: dogdays
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/25/13 09:40 PM
It isn't the floor pans.
It isn't the transmission as it does it with the clutch DISENGAGED, meaning the clutch disk is stationary
So we're down to whatever rotates when the engine is rotating but the driveshaft and transmission are not. That leaves rotating assembly, flywheel and pressure plate, plus whatever is on the accessory drives. But you said you tested with all the belts off and it still did it.
Seems to me that rather than buy new parts again and again, you pull the engine and rebalance the entire rotating assembly WITH flywheel, pressure plate and harmonic damper attached.
From the first posts it sounds like maybe the vibration started when you changed the pressure plate. So that's what I'd look at first, the balance of the entire rotating assembly.
R.
Posted By: 68KillerBee
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/26/13 05:03 AM
The motor rebuild was a different block and all internal stuff was different. The old 440 is still sitting in the shed with just the heads off, intake and carb off, they're on the new block. The only reason flywheel and stuff was switched originally was bc we were looking for what the vibration was from. Different motor, flywheel, clutch, bellhousing, etc and it still the exact same symptoms (vibration when in higher rpm's). I may jump on taking parts out Saturday, just because I'm curious on the extent of damage and of course to get your all's help.
Posted By: a12superbee
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/26/13 08:05 AM
Everything posted sure points to not being balanced as an assembly.
Your dads sacrifice has led to one of the best threads in quite a while though.
Buy him a root beer for us.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/26/13 02:08 PM
Quote:
The motor rebuild was a different block and all internal stuff was different. The old 440 is still sitting in the shed with just the heads off, intake and carb off, they're on the new block. The only reason flywheel and stuff was switched originally was bc we were looking for what the vibration was from. Different motor, flywheel, clutch, bellhousing, etc and it still the exact same symptoms (vibration when in higher rpm's). I may jump on taking parts out Saturday, just because I'm curious on the extent of damage and of course to get your all's help.
Then it's driveline related originally.
Posted By: superbeedave
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/26/13 03:22 PM
I have plenty of movies. It's gonna be a longgg one!!!
Posted By: dogdays
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/26/13 05:17 PM
JohnRR, you may be forgetting that he says it vibrated with the clutch pedal in, also vibrated with the clutch pedal out but the transmission in neutral.
I'm beginning to wonder if it is either a perception problem or something off the wall like a distributor with slightly misshaped toothed wheel or cam.
R.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/26/13 06:35 PM
Quote:
JohnRR, you may be forgetting that he says it vibrated with the clutch pedal in, also vibrated with the clutch pedal out but the transmission in neutral.
I'm beginning to wonder if it is either a perception problem or something off the wall like a distributor with slightly misshaped toothed wheel or cam.
R.
Could be all of the above ???
Was the car in motion while the clutch pedal was pushed in or was it stationary ?
IF stationary that points to an engine imbalance , but with 2 different engines ?
Posted By: DarrenS
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/26/13 07:47 PM
Most or all the parts have been replaced but if one of the parts was of improper balance for the combination replacing it with a like item would not solve the problem...
Posted By: 68KillerBee
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/29/13 12:11 PM
Quote:
Quote:
JohnRR, you may be forgetting that he says it vibrated with the clutch pedal in, also vibrated with the clutch pedal out but the transmission in neutral.
I'm beginning to wonder if it is either a perception problem or something off the wall like a distributor with slightly misshaped toothed wheel or cam.
R.
Could be all of the above ???
Was the car in motion while the clutch pedal was pushed in or was it stationary ?
IF stationary that points to an engine imbalance , but with 2 different engines ?
Hadn't thought of that. I had a problem that I coulda swore was my carburetor. But putting a different coil on it fixed the problem, even though I was just changing it just to change it. Who knows at this point what it is, I haven't messed with it and don't know if dad has either.
Clutch pushed in and out, moving or sitting still and it is felt.
More to come in a few days.
Posted By: idrivevintage
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/29/13 02:40 PM
Devin, I just stumbled across this thread and am bummed out too...just posted in another thread a cool memory I have of your dad and his car. I hope he doesn't let it get the better of him...cool heads prevail.
We need to keep this car on the streets or it will become dormant again like the rest of the them in the famliy
I have another 11" bell housing from a 68' if you need it...don't think I'll be using it anytime soon. Flywheel too but it'll need resurfaced.
Man, I'm sorry for your luck with all this. It's unbelievable
I'll give you guys a call
Posted By: moparmojo
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/31/13 03:08 PM
I'll be honest that I don't know what it is as I am more of a parts changer than anything else, however I would recommend that at first chance to pull everything out. Align all the pieces and take many photos for us to look at. I bet when you start putting the puzzle pieces back together you will get a better idea of what may have happened. Look for things that may be discolored, melted, or burnt or that have unusual wear marks. Do you know the speed of the vibration? Was it a constant speed or did it speed up as the car sped up. Did it match the motor RPM or was it half RPM. Just wondering.sure sorry this happened.
Posted By: Paul_Fancsali
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 07/31/13 09:41 PM
Was the drive shaft original to the car Too long a shaft could cause the vibration and damage you had all it takes is little extra weight and dips / holes / slanted driveways you name it. drive shaft moves forwards an there is no play you get a mess.
Posted By: ek3
Re: 4 Speed Breakage - 08/01/13 12:04 AM
Quote:
We are getting a new garage and we were cleaning the old one out so we can tear it down. Power goes out in our neighborhood, so we hop in the GTX too cruise around a bit. Drove around town for a bit and heading home. A mile from our house the car starts grinding and sparks flying everywhere. I thought the driveshaft had just fallen off from the u joint at the rear. Well Dad finally gets it to stop and we go out to assess what happened. First thing we saw radiator was leaking and the transmission looked loose. Driveshaft angle was off, so we pulled it off and towed the car home. Get home, lights go on just as we finish pushing the car in the shed.
I hop under since I can finally see and find this:
The completely rebuilt motor was just finished up last year, transmission was professionally rebuilt, new clutch, pressure plate, bellhousing, driveshaft balanced, etc.
I mean where do you even start on fixing this? The motor let loose and came forward, so the fan took out the radiator in the center, who knows what could be wrong in the motor with the input shaft on the transmission completely ripping off, and hopefully it didn't mess up the rearend. The bellhousing ripped in half along with the front shaft! 18 spline transmission too. So frustrated as we have been messing with this car for two years and now this. The 440 is not pumping out tons of HP either, it is probably a mid to high 13 second car if I were to compare it to my (slow) 14.5 quarter I get in my super bee.
your bell housing broke probably due to cracks. that left no support for the transmission which then failed as a result. the engine then dropped as there was no support at the rear and that got the radiator. I have blown a bell housing into 100 little bits. unless the rear crank flange is bent , the engine will most likely be fine.[be sure to install a new pilot bushing] this can be checked with a known flat flywheel mounted and a dial indicator if you want to know. then,#1. get the engine back upright and block it level temp. put the known properly balanced flywheel on it and crank it without a disc or pressure plate. if it vibrates , it is in the engine. if it does not , add the disc and p-plate and re-check. you are all over the place with problems and you need to start from a known point to find your solution. btw. you can un-hook all the belts ,even the water pump to test this and add 1 at the time back!
